Does it bother anyone besides me?

[Occhidiangela]

Ever since the Berlin Wall came down, Israel has been as much a security liability as a help in the Mid East. It does not help that Arafat played "my way or the highway" on President Clinton, a move that cut the legs out from under liberal Israeli politicians trying to work a deal.

Israel is the beneficiary of some 3-5 billion dollars per year in aid, and a harder to track amount of "forgiven" loans. Somewhere, I am sure, there is a cost benefit analysis outlining what American security gets for its $3-5 billion per year. Some is spent, I imagine, in the US for things like helicopters, missiles, tools, spare parts, what have you. Where is the rest going?

Considering the pretty good standard of living among Israelis, probably not shared by some very many "Palestinians," I am puzzled at how this American largesse, which they don't have to raise by their own taxation, gets repaid.

With spying.

U.S. Boosts Charges Against Defense Analyst

By Jerry Markon, Washington Post Staff Writer

Federal prosecutors announced upgraded charges yesterday against a Defense Department analyst accused of disclosing government secrets, saying for the first time that Lawrence Franklin conspired to give classified information to a foreign government.

An indictment filed in U.S. District Court in Alexandria charged that Franklin met with a foreign diplomat last year at a coffeehouse in the District and provided classified information about a Middle Eastern country's activities in Iraq. Court documents do not identify the diplomat or the country, but sources familiar with the case said he works for the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

The indictment, filed May 26 and unsealed yesterday, revealed that another Defense Department employee is involved in the investigation into whether classified U.S. information was provided to the government of Israel.  The employee, the indictment said, was present at a separate meeting at which Franklin is accused of disclosing national defense information to two people, identified as former employees of a pro-Israel lobbying group. It is unclear if the Defense employee is also a target of the probe.

Yesterday's charges mark an escalation of the government's case against Franklin, an Iran specialist who was first charged in Alexandria last month with disclosing classified information related to potential attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq. Court documents did not reveal who received the information, but federal law enforcement sources have said it was Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, an influential lobbying organization.

I wonder if anyone would be willing to rig up treason charges on lobbyists like this, or if they will be defended under the old rubric of . . .

In treason there's no profit
And where's the reason?
If it profit, none dare call it treason.

For all that Israelis and the US have had a special relationship since 1948, and the pro-Israel lobby has been both influential and outspoken throughout the same period, I am disturbed at how American support, both political and financial, is being repaid.

People complained about the Chinese lobbyists in the Clinton era, maybe we need to hear a bit more public vitriol on these so called lobbyists cum Israeli agents in AIPAC.

Time to write your Congressman and ask what we get for our money. Is America getting a quid pro quo.

What could you do with 3-5 billion dollars per year in your state?

Occhi

[ShadowHM]

For all that Israelis and the US have had a special relationship since 1948, and the pro-Israel lobby has been both influential and outspoken throughout the same period, I am disturbed at how American support, both political and financial, is being repaid.



Occhi
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As you have pointed out in the past, Occhi, a sovereign government looks to maximize its own agendas, not necessarily those of it's allies.

However, said allies do need to think long and hard about what they are buying when they spend money. Maybe it is still worth the cost and maybe not. But examining it with a critical eye would be a good start, instead of the knee-jerk "But we have to do it" reaction that seems to have been the norm in that particular relationship.

[Occhidiangela]

As you have pointed out in the past, Occhi, a sovereign government looks to maximize its own agendas, not necessarily those of it's allies. 

However, said allies do need to think long and hard about what they are buying when they spend money.    Maybe it is still worth the cost and maybe not.  But examining it with a critical eye would be a good start, instead of the knee-jerk "But we have to do it" reaction that seems to have been the norm in that particular relationship.
[right][snapback]80576[/snapback][/right]

The "we have to do it" is the rallying cry of the pro Israeli lobby. Always has been. The security calculus of the Cold War, the "anti Imperialist West" theme of Soviet influence mongering in the Mid East, as well as the security of global oil supplies to keep global trade alive (John Galt Factor) probably made for a good cost benifit relationship. Since Carter, every President has pursued, by one method or another, a path to easing tensions in the Mid East, particularly focused on the assumption of "the existence of Israel" as a policy baseline. Mixed results.

The need to re examine assumptions is what seems to scare the pro Israeli lobby. They are keenly aware that absent American aid, Israel's economic stability will falter, with an attendant risk to security.

As to spying, the French also "collect" on us. I imagine a number of our allies do to one extent or another.

Occhi

[Guest]

We support Isreal for 3 reasons.

1 The rest of the world with the exception of Asia is rather anti-semitic, especially Europe. After seeing what the Nazies did 60 years ago, there is a feeling that its worth proping up Isreal because no one else would help them if they were down.

Thats the main reason.

2 There are a lot of rich and smart Jews in America. Money and smarts are the best way to get money.

3 Protestant Evangelicals take it to heart where the bible says to side with the Jews(Im in this group.)

[Occhidiangela]

3 Protestant Evangelicals take it to heart where the bible says to side with the Jews(Im in this group.)

Understood. Damascus Gate was an interesting thriller written on that topic. :D

Based on what I have read, and it is a limited bibliography, the current Jews in Israel are seen by many, particularly non Evangelicals, as a very different group, both theologically and genetically, from "the chosen people" who were scattered to the 4 winds after the 70 AD and 135 AD defeats by the Romans. The Diaspora.

Khazar, Shephardim and other European strains of blood, and changes in the doctrines of Judaism over 2000 years, lend some credence to that position. Then of course, there are the frictions between the Orthodox and some of the more liberal sects . . . just like in any religion.

What is a Jew is just as valid a question as "what is a Christian?" :D

The symbols and hype of the modern age, of course, render such an academic discussion just that: academic. With politics involved, symbols are invoked to lend support to one position or another.

In the same way, some idiots think the Statue of Liberty was erected to welcome immigrants. It wasn't. That "give me your tired, your hungry, your huddled masses yearning to breath free" was added over twenty years after the French made a gift of the statue.

[Ashock]

We support Isreal for 3 reasons.

1 The rest of the world with the exception of Asia is rather anti-semitic, especially Europe. After seeing what the Nazies did 60 years ago, there is a feeling that its worth proping up Isreal because no one else would help them if they were down.

Thats the main reason.

2 There are a lot of rich and smart Jews in America. Money and smarts are the best way to get money.

3 Protestant Evangelicals take it to heart where the bible says to side with the Jews(Im in this group.)
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We support Israel for one simple reason. We need a loyal friend in the Middle East and through the years they have been that..... well, mostly.



-A

[Occhidiangela]

We support Israel for one simple reason. We need a loyal friend in the Middle East and through the years they have been that..... well, mostly.
-A
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Change the word Need to Needed, and flash forward to the present, when The Great Game with the Soviet Union is no longer on, and the picture changes considerably.

We put up with some tin pot dictators during the Cold War for a larger goal. That is changing somewhat. Do we really have to put up with such a bullheaded drinking buddy anymore? Where is the quid pro quo?

Occhi

[Ashock]

Change the word Need to Needed, and flash forward to the present, when The Great Game with the Soviet Union is no longer on, and the picture changes considerably.

We put up with some tin pot dictators during the Cold War for a larger goal.  That is changing somewhat.  Do we really have to put up with such a bullheaded drinking buddy anymore?  Where is the quid pro quo?

Occhi
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You know, I partially agree with you. However, here's the thing. I also think that our aid is also a sort of a bribe to keep Israel from getting off it's leash and kicking some butt in the ME, and that would be very politically incorrect.

It would also serve to put Europe on it's ears and Europe would use that as an excuse to pull a Yugoslavia on Israel.

That would force us into taking Israel's side and eventually would lead to a nuclear confrontation between the US and EU (well, minus GB...possibly). While some of the results of this would be quite agreeable, as in distruction of Fr.... errrr...never mind, some of the others would really be rather unpleasant. A nuclear winter would follow and would force many americans to eat less.... oh sorry, that would not be so bad. Anyway, I think you know where I'm going with this. If you figure it out, lemme know, since I'm not really sure myself, k?



-A

[Occhidiangela]

You know, I partially agree with you. However, here's the thing. I also think that our aid is also a sort of a bribe to keep Israel from getting off it's leash and kicking some butt in the ME, and that would be very politically incorrect.

It would also serve to put Europe on it's ears and Europe would use that as an excuse to pull a Yugoslavia on Israel.

That would force us into taking Israel's side and eventually would lead to a nuclear confrontation between the US and EU (well, minus GB...possibly). While some of the results of this would be quite agreeable, as in distruction of Fr.... errrr...never mind, some of the others would really be rather unpleasant. A nuclear winter would follow and would force many americans to eat less.... oh sorry, that would not be so bad. Anyway, I think you know where I'm going with this. If you figure it out, lemme know, since I'm not really sure myself, k?
-A
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Until the French gain more influence in the EU, their native anti-Semitism will not overwhelm the generally weak stomach most of Europe has for taking decisive action. That leaves Israel relatively safe from that quarter. Israel's continuing efforts to build security bridges with the Turks is another matter entierly, vis a vis Europe.

Europe being nuked? Bad idea. Now, there are a few other places I'd like to see glowing green in the night, starting with Beijing and Shanghai.

Occhi

[Any1]

You know, I partially agree with you. However, here's the thing. I also think that our aid is also a sort of a bribe to keep Israel from getting off it's leash and kicking some butt in the ME, and that would be very politically incorrect. [right][snapback]80622[/snapback][/right]

The question is would Israel be in any position to "Kick Ass in ME" if it wasn't for the $3-$5 Billion a year from the US (for past few decades)?

Also consider that this unflinching support for Israel has provided a lot of ammunition to US detractors both in the Middle-east, Europe, and else where in the world. People will probably find other reasons to "detract", but this one is awfully convinient.

[Any1]

Europe being nuked?  Bad idea.  Now, there are a few other places I'd like to see glowing green in the night, starting with Beijing and Shanghai.

Occhi
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Got a hold of some bad Chinese food recently? I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, but killing tens of millions of innocent chinese doesn't sit well with my sense of equity and justice. :huh:

[jahcs]

Got a hold of some bad Chinese food recently?  I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, but killing tens of millions of innocent chinese doesn't sit well with my sense of equity and justice.   :huh:
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We'll drop leaflets urging the good citizens to leave first. :P

Seriously, I know that doesn't work and turning vast swathes of our planet into glass parking lots isn't a Good Idea.

[Guest]

You underestimate politics.

Decisions are made by politicians not pragmatists.

[Ashock]

The question is would Israel be in any position to "Kick Ass in ME" if it wasn't for the $3-$5 Billion a year from the US (for past few decades)? 

Also consider that this unflinching support for Israel has provided a lot of ammunition to US detractors both in the Middle-east, Europe, and else where in the world.  People will probably find other reasons to "detract", but this one is awfully convinient.
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I dunno. However, they did do it in 3 previous wars already and while they were getting help from the US, the Arabs were getting MASSIVE help from the USSR, so I'd say that at least evens it out. The fact of the matter is the Arabs are very poor fighters in open warfare.
As far as the US help providing ammunition for US detractors, as I've said, the Arabs were getting so much help from the USSR, that it dwarves the US-Israel association. Most seem to forget that.... or they simply do not care to remember/know it, as it does not suit their purpose.


-A

[Occhidiangela]

Got a hold of some bad Chinese food recently?  I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, but killing tens of millions of innocent chinese doesn't sit well with my sense of equity and justice.  :huh:
[right][snapback]80628[/snapback][/right]

1. If the nukes are to fly, China is the best place for them.

2. I'd rather nukes not ever fly.

3. You may not understand my position on China. China is a rival, and have already recognized the US, as a rival, back in the early 80's. Their aim it to do to us what we did to Russia, which is to slowly wear us down economically.

China are NOT our friends. We may, however, make a lot of money off of each other in the short term. In China time, in the long term, there is rivalry. It may or may not result in war, but there will be a power struggle.

If you don't get that, I can't help you.

Occhi

[ShadowHM]

China are NOT our friends.  We may, however, make a lot of money off of each other in the short term.  In China time, in the long term, there is rivalry.  It may or may not result in war, but there will be a power struggle.

If you don't get that, I can't help you.

Occhi
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You can always hope they implode. ;) They do keep rather a lot of their citizenry in economic serfdom. And they are polluting their section of the planet at a remarkably fast clip. Beijing's air pollution is as bad as Victorian London's was.

And, in the short run, we are all hoping they help put the brakes on North Korea, aren't we? Or would that little game of brinkmanship help the Chinese government more than hurt them?

[Any1]

1. If the nukes are to fly, China is the best place for them.

2.  I'd rather nukes not ever fly.

3.  You may not understand my position on China.  China is a rival, and have already recognized the US, as a rival, back in the early 80's.  Their aim it to do to us what we did to Russia, which is to slowly wear us down economically.

China are NOT our friends.  We may, however, make a lot of money off of each other in the short term.  In China time, in the long term, there is rivalry.  It may or may not result in war, but there will be a power struggle.

If you don't get that, I can't help you.

Occhi
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I understand our realationship with China. I now understand your position on China. What I don't understand is killing tens of millions of innocent people. I can only acccept this if there was a nuclear first strike by China on the US.

I think there is a long ways between being business/political rivals and lobbing nukes at each other. :wacko:

[Occhidiangela]

I think there is a long ways between being business/political rivals and lobbing nukes at each other.  :wacko:
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I sincerely hope you are correct! :o I also hope that the rivalry can be managed short of, hell, well short of, war. Given the track record of the human race, I have not decided on betting the over or the under as yet. :wacko:

You presume innocence, I don't. (Ref: George Carlin's rant on innocence is an interesting cut on the word, and one I ascribe to.)

[Occhidiangela]

You can always hope they implode.  ;)  They do keep rather a lot of their citizenry in economic serfdom.  And they are polluting their section of the planet at a remarkably fast clip.  Beijing's air pollution is as bad as Victorian London's was.

And, in the short run, we are all hoping they help put the brakes on North Korea, aren't we?    Or would that little game of brinkmanship help the Chinese government more than hurt them?
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They will deal with the North Korea situation as best it suits their strategic ends, not ours. I really don't blame them for that. No one looks out for Number one like number one.

Occhi

[Chesspiece_face]

For all that Israelis and the US have had a special relationship since 1948, and the pro-Israel lobby has been both influential and outspoken throughout the same period, I am disturbed at how American support, both political and financial, is being repaid.

Occhi
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Well i guess that depends on who you ask. There are some factions in the evangilical right-wing whom have gotten a good deal of power over the last 10ish years that follow a very literal reading of the bible. One particularly relevant portion of the bible states that the rapture will commence when all of gods chosen people return to isreal (gods chosen people being the jews.) For those groups that look at it this way i'm sure they would say the rapture is repayment enough.

this is actually a large part of american-isreal relations that goes unspoken and without much higher scrutiny.

edit: once again, good to read a good bit of the thread before responding to the first post... :whistling: