My Paladin Respec

[Tal]

I've been pondering a respec on Sharanna from 31 retribution/21 protection to holy/retribution. But as I look at the talents more and more I just can't make that leap to going cleric. Though I do admit there are times with more healing oomph would really be helpful (most noticeably chain healing Gnolack last night at the General, twice to OOM and finally applying Lay of Hands on him). So I'm considering the following respec:

Protection
Redoubt - 5 points
Toughness - 5 points
Improved Seal of Fury - 5 points
Shield Specialization - 5 points
Reckoning - 5 points
Holy Shield - 1 point

Total Investment - 26 points

Retribution
Improved Blessing of Might - 5 points or Benediction - 5 points
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - 5 points
Vengeance - 5 points
Seal of Command - 1 point
Anticipation - 5 points
Improved Retibution Aura 3 points
Consecration - 1 point

Total Investment - 25 points

I'm thinking that this setup will maximize my power to defense ratio. One of the question this boils down to is Blessing of Might (which I rarely use as I need mana to regen during fights) versus Benediction (reduces cost of Retribution skills by 15%). As my main mana hogs when tanking are judging Seal of Fury, consecration and holy shield this seems marginally helpful versus Blessing of might.

Thoughts?

[Kevin]

Well I was going to start my own thread, but I see no reason to not put all the discussion here. So I'm putting my spec here too.

Having gotten some end game exp now and having worked with some paladins and playing mine to L37 so far I've started to think about the end game roll. It seems to me if there is more than one warrior around the warriors will be the main tanks, off tanks, and possible the main assists. In a 5 man the paladin would be more of the main assist, tanking the focus fire target while the warrior is dealing with the non CC'd mobs. The paladin will also be put into the roll of a back up healer. There may be some rare cases where they are called on to be a main tank but in our guild with what we have for classes I don't see that happening as much. Paladins will also be some minor DPS.

To me that seems to rule out much of the protection tree. While the improved seal of fury would help greatly with aggro if you needed to grab it, I'm hoping the slight DPS increase of retribution would help with that too.

I do believe that you could put together a paladin build that could be an effective main healer if you gear for it fully work to be the main healer. I'm not looking for that because I doubt that will be the roll a paladin will need to fill either. Besides I have my restoration/feral spec druid that can do that. :)

Build summary, detials on skill to follow:
Retribution Mastery
Improved Blessing of Might - 5/5
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - 5/5
Deflection - 5/5
Vengeance - 5/5
Seal of Command - 1/1
Precision - 3/3
Consecration - 1/1
Conviction - 5/5
Blessing of Kings - 1/1
Retribution Total: 31

Holy Mastery
Spiritual Focus - 5/5
Improved Holy Light - 3/3
Illumination - 5/5
Divine Favor - 1/1
Improved Seal of Righteousness - 5/5
Improved Flash of Light Rank 1/3
Holy Total: 20

Retribution Mastery
Improved Blessing of Might - Rank 5/5
Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Blessing of Might by 20%.
- Need a skill to get into the tree this has helped me with soloing and there aren't a lot of retribution skills I'll be casting so cutting the mana cost doesn't seem too helpful. This is more beneficial to a party.

Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - Rank 5/5
- Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 5%.
I see paladins with 2 handers on a lot. More DPS is more DPS. :) The improved Crusader could be helpful too, but this one helps no matter what seal I have up.

Deflection - Rank 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.
- I need it for precision, which I want, and parry is a good thing for when I get aggro or when soloing. Since I'm going 31/20 this does pretty much rule out anticipation, but since I probably won't have a lot of defense gear I probably won't be able to get my defense up to the levels where it better than the 5% parry would be. I also won't be tanking things for long so the 0.4% lower dodge, parry and block and the lessened crit chance aren't as important as pure damage avoidance.

Vengeance - Rank 5/5
Gives you a 15% bonus to Physical and Holy damage you deal for 8 sec after dealing a critical strike.
- More damage after a crit. I'll be going down to conviction to help with my crit chance as well. Though it will probably on be around 10-12% crit at best. That is still a bit more damage now and then. And when you are just adding what DPS you can that is better than nothing.

Seal of Command - Rank 1/1
55 Mana
Instant cast
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of command for 30 sec, giving the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to the damage of the Paladin's weapon. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 sec, causing 24 Holy damage anytime the enemy becomes stunned. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
- This is my big damage adder. The judgement is pretty pointless but you can put out some nice hits with this. With the 2 handed weapon spec and the extra crit chance this becomes more important. It doesn't help with the streaky aggro generation problems I already have but again I don't see a lot of tanking and if it takes aggro for a bit, better me, who can heal myself than a squishy.

Precision - Rank 3/3
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 3%.
- Hitting things is good. This helps a bit with steady aggro generation. It helps with the minor DPS add. It helps when soloing. My warrior wants it. :)

Consecration - Rank 1/1
235 Mana
Instant cast 8 sec cooldown
Consecrates the land beneath Paladin, doing 120 Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area.
- If I do have to tank this is critical for AoE aggro generation. It also does minor damage and can help hold the trash mobs for a pulse when the real AoE people apply damage. It also helps when you need to escort little L9 gnomes who get bugged up to the Alterac Valley BG and need to get away. :)

Conviction - Rank 5/5
- Increases your chance to get a critical strike with melee weapons by 5%.
Well I want more damage I want more consistent damage the more I crit the better.

Blessing of Kings - Rank 1/1
75 Mana 30 yd range
Instant cast
Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing total stats by 10% for 5 min. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.
- Tis a good Blessing and I've gone deep enough to get it. It's Mark of the Wild for the stats that character cares about. A good blessing for anyone and if you have more than one pally that can give people blessings it's just that much better.

Retribution Total: 31

Holy Mastery
Spiritual Focus - Rank 5/5
Gives your Flash of Light and Holy Light spells a 70% chance to not lose casting time when you take damage.
- With Concentration aura up I can no longer be interrupted when casting a heal. This is a big deal while out solo and could be very helpful if called upon to main heal or even have to take over healing for a group. And Balador has been the main healer in several instance runs already. But it a better solo skill.

Improved Holy Light - Rank 3/3
Increases the amount healed by your Holy Light spell by 12%.
- I'll take at least 149 more healing on my highest rank of Holy Light. With the 400 more from blessing of light that makes my Holy Light as good as a Flash of Light and untalented Holy Light put together. Besides if I'm going to be doing some healing I might as well be better at it.

Illumination - Rank 5/5
After getting a critical effect from your Flash of Light or Holy L
ight spell, gives you a 100% chance to gain Mana equal to the base cost of the spell.
- So if my heal crits, it's free. Since I'll have mana issues most likely when in heal mode that can help.

Divine Favor - Rank 1/1
60 Mana
Instant cast 2 min cooldown
When activated, gives your next Flash of Light or Holy Light spell a 100% critical effect chance.
- Ah ha! Take this and Illumination and I get a free mana crit heal. Sure it's not the instant cast ability of the druid or shaman. But it is similar to the Priest's Inner focus which gives them a free cast that has a good chance of a crit heal. So the paladin has to have the mana first to cast his crit but the priest gets a cast while out of mana basically.

Improved Seal of Righteousness - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness by 15%.
- OK so it only adds another 10 or so damage, but I belive the affect stacks with judgement of the crusader. My L34 SoR does 50 holy damage a proc when I judge crusader. If I had this talent now I think from what I understand the base 29 that is upped to 50 with the judgement would actually be 57 with this talent not 54. So I think this would add about 20 damage with a judged crusader on a target. This one procs pretty regularly too. So if nothing else it will help some of my soloing early. Besides I want some more points to get a bit deeper into the tree and the other early talents don't look that helpful. If I need Lay on Hands every 40 minutes we have bigger problems. Spending points to improve Lay on Hands doesn't seem to wise since it won't be used that often and I'm not sure 30% more armor would help that much anyway.

Improved Flash of Light - Rank 1/3
Reduces the Mana cost of your Flash of Light spell by 4%.
- Again I needed one more point somewhere. While a cheaper heal spell is nice dropping the mana cost by 17 fully talented doesn't seem to be that big a deal. This may go away, as might the Improved Seal or Righteousness.

Holy Total: 20



The big question comes down to Improved SoR and Improved Flash of Light. Or Improved Blessing of Wisdom and 1 point in Divine Wisdom (Improved Blessing is a prereq). Divine Wisdom would give me 2% more mana. Blessing of Wisdom talented is 36 vs 30 mana every 5 seconds. My Blessing of Kings will probably help more than either of those as it will increase my mana pool as well.


Edit: Added summary of skills, fixed readability some.

[Skandranon]

As long as we're talking builds, I'll chime in with Katrin's build and why I picked it, along with a general discussion of paladin talents and what I think about them. You can skip down past my ramblings to a discussion of a Protection build and its objectives by looking for the horizontal line.

Katrin is built like so:

Retribution (30)
-Improved Blessing of Might (5)
-Improved Seal of the Crusader (5)
-Seal of Command (1)
-Deflection (5)
-Vengeance (5)
-Precision (3)
-Consecration (1)
-Conviction (5)

Holy (21)
-Spiritual Focus (5)
-Improved Holy Light (2)
-Revelation (2)
-Illumination (5)
-Divine Favor (1)
-Improved Seal of Righteousness (5)
-Sanctity Aura (1)

I initially built this way because of the demands of soloing. Paladins' minuscule DPS output almost demands a heavy investment into Retribution, so I knew I was definitely going for Vengeance/Conviction, which, while fairly weak by the standards of most other classes, is as good of a DPS combo as Paladins get. Consecration was gotten because I built Katrin mostly to main-tank for Ab, Griz, and Sommli; I needed to be able to main-tank, and paladins without Consecration simply can't do that, as they rapidly lose control of more mobs than one without it.

The big question about this build is why I picked Sanctity Aura over Blessing of Kings. A lot of people think that BoK is the no-brainer selection, and I would agree that BoK is, in general, superior to Sanctity. But there were sound logical reasons to select Sanctity, and I'll get to those in just a moment. Right now I'll just kick out my thoughts on the paladin trees and what I consider important talents.

Retribution

-Improved Blessing of Might, Benediction, Improved Seal of the Crusader, Two-handed Weapon Specialization

The first four talents of this tree are the worst dross I've seen in any talent tree of any class in the game. Not a single one is really any good, and anyone can pick any ten points to plug into these talents in whatever combination and not go seriously wrong. You could go 2-3-2-3 in all four of them and it would make very little difference from concentrating 5-5 in just two of them.

-Seal of Command

A big damage seal that's hard to get away from. Without this you really have very little in the way of DPS options for soloing. Less important in the endgame, but if you use a two-hander, still useful. It almost justifies ten points of junk prereqs all by itself, but only almost. If you're going this deep I'd get other goodies out of Ret.

-Deflection, Precision

I like this line for solo work and main-tanking. Not entirely certain how useful it is in end-game raids, but I'd imagine not very.

-Anticipation

With as much +def gear as there is in the game, this seems like a terrible waste of points to me. After all, +2 defense is +0.08% dodge/parry/block, and you can get 1% parry for the same point in Deflection. 1% chance of negating a hit versus 0.16% chance of negating and 0.08% chance of removing a negligible amount of damage doesn't seem like a fair trade.

-Vengeance/Conviction

This line is almost assuredly something you want for solo. For raids, not so sure. 10 man and 15 man, these two can contribute to significant damage. 40 man, you won't want to be doing damage at all, but those raids aren't very common.

-Improved Retribution Aura

Each point adds 1 damage to the best retribution aura paladins can get. One point. I think realizing a gain of <1 DPS is a very poor use for a talent point.

-Consecration

Critical for main-tanking. Somewhat useful as DPS in solo encounters, since there really isn't much else to use your mana on anyway. Use has to be very careful in raids, because Consecration is crowd control's nightmare: an AoE DoT, for pathetic damage, too.

-Blessing of Kings

Those of you who listen to me in guild chat know that I rag on BoK a lot. It's not that I don't see the value in it, but it's like back in the old D2 days when I was the only one who wasn't a huge fan of max Warmth (this was before spell timers and everyone eventually coming around to my view). Yes, it's useful, but not as useful as everyone makes it out to be. BoK's a nice blessing, but it's a "third blessing", because every class is going to have two blessings they want more than BoK. DPS classes will want Salvation and then Wisdom or Might. Warriors will want Sanctuary and Might, and possibly even Light. Salvation is 30% more damage for DPS classes, and similarly, Might adds far more attack power than Kings, while Sanctuary adds far more survivability than Kings. I don't underestimate its value, but I see its limitations clearly, as well.

Plus, the mere position of BoK has led to legions of pubby pallies constantly blessing my mage with Kings instead of Salv. It can be intensely frustrating.

Holy

-Improved Lay on Hands

Just no. A bonus that you can get, at most, every 40 minutes?

-Spiritual Focus

With Concentration, this is uninterruptible healing. Even by itself, it's great for solo and group situations.

-Improved Holy Light

Holy Light is a pretty good heal, with Blessing of Light factored in. This isn't a bad place for points, and should probably be maxed for serious raiders.

-Revelation

I like it, just because things can tend to go wrong more than once an hour. If I really need it, I'd like to have LoH and DI available, and a 40 minute cycle is far friendlier than a 60 minute one. Can be argued, though.

-Improved Blessing of Wisdom, Divine Wisdom

This line is as raid-oriented as any one can be. IBoW isn't too good; maxed, it only increases BoW from 30 mana every 5 sec. to 36 mana every 5 sec. But combined with the bonus 10% mana from DW, these two specialize the paladin more in the healing/buffing role that endgame requires.

-Illumination, Divine Favor

Really can't speak of these two separately. Without Divine Favor, Illumination is okay but not great. With Divine Favor, the free crit heal every two minutes is powerful indeed.

-Improved Flash of Light

Flash's mana cost isn't large anyway, and with BoL its efficiency is good enough. I don't see a compelling reason to take this talent, especially given how infrequently Flash will be used outside of Onyxia's Lair.

-Improved Concentration Aura

The uninterruptible-cast talents available right now from all classes already go up to at least 65% on their own, so an untalented Concentration can already bring them up to 100%. For skills without such supporting talents, 35% vs. 50% doesn't make much of a difference.

-Improved Seal of Light

Not good enough, especially given Seal of Light's infrequent use. You are almost always better off judging Seal of Wisdom, even when solo, since the mana you get from Wisdom can be converted into far more healing than Light will give you.

-Divine Strength

This talent is terribly misplaced in the holy tree, and not too useful besides. Vengeance/Conviction and a strong agility focus create more damage than piling on the strength and going for this talent.

-Improved Seal of Righteousness, Sanctity Aura, Holy Shock

This is the big line of Holy. ISoR is okay if you don't have Command, Sanc is pretty weak overall, and even Shock is nothing special. It's funny that the final talent of the Holy tree doesn't actually help you heal at all, but that's another issue entirely.

When, if ever, is just Sanctity a good choice? Especially over Blessing of Kings? The answer is: if you expect to solo a lot. It's difficult to overstate the anemia that characterizes paladin damage past 40 post SotC-nerf. It's critical to squeeze out every last bit of damage you can, and in that comparison, Sanctity is strictly superior to BoK. BoK does not and cannot provide the enhancement to damage that BoM does, especially if you've got IBoM. Sanctity can be used concurrent with BoM, and combined with SoC can provide a noticeable DPS increase.

Protection

Protection's a funny tree, because it's all about tanking, and yet the talent that lets paladins actually tank, Consecration, is deep into a completely different tree.

-Improved Devotion Aura

A lot of newbie paladins almost instinctively reach for this talent to improve their tanking ability. It's passive, and it's appealing. It's also bad. Five points buys a mere 184 armor at the highest level, which more or less doesn't help at all. Factor in how frequently you'll be running Fire Res aura at high levels, and....

-Redoubt

The better first-tier Protection talent. If you're tanking, you'll get crit a lot, and the blocking you get from this will probably amount to much more mitigation than you'd get from IDA. Even if you're not tanking, higher level things toss out the crits fairly regularly. Of course, in endgame you won't be hit by much in the way of physical damage, but that's no help to either of the early talents.

-Improved Blessing of Protection

BoP is rather useful, but three minutes or five minutes, you're still getting only one a fight. Not a bad place to put points, but not particularly good, either.

-Toughness

Now here's the way to get armor. Armor value from items is likely to be 6000 or so of an endgame paladin's ~7000 armor, so each point in Toughness will end up offering somewhere around four times the effectiveness of a point in IDA.

-Improved Blessing of Freedom

Generally, mobs won't be resnaring you before BoF cools down. And even if they do, it's very unlikely that they'd be doing it within the extra five seconds that this talent gives you.

-Blessing of Sanctuary

Take this and tanks will love you. AoEing mages, too, if you've the presence of mind to slap it on before they go. It has a variety of uses and is a significant difference to damage taken.

-Improved Seal of Fury

Specializes the paladin for an off-tanking role that mostly disappears in 40-man raids. Before then, however, this can certainly help.

-Shield Specialization, Holy Shield

Shield spec is not particularly great, adding a tiny amount of damage mitigation. Holy shield is much like ISoF - makes the paladin a superb off-tank and improves the paladin's ability to hold aggro on a single target. I am not certain that a paladin with Holy Shield could main-tank anything that isn't mostly undead, but I've observed Holy Shield paladins being able to hold a single target as well as any warrior.

-Reckoning

This talent would be absurdly powerful for warriors. As it is, it's moderately useful for paladins and really emphasizes the single-target off-tanking role that much of the Protection tree is built for.

-Improved Blessing of Salvation

You can always rebuff, right? Well...not really. In long fights, especially Onyxia, the five-minute standard blessing will certainly run out, occasioning mid-fight reblessing, which is burning mana and time you could be using to heal. Better than I originally thought.

-One-handed Weapon Specialization

Each point in here translates to roughly 1 more damage per hit. I'll let that speak for itself.

-Improved Seal of Justice, Repentance

Ugh. Given the way Seal of Justice works, all ISoJ does is rapidly make it so your target is immune to your stuns. And Repentance, the worst CC in the game, has precisely one use I can see - hitting a Ghost Wolf shaman running away with your flag in the Warsong Gulch BG. Doubt it's worth 31 points.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, now that I've rambled: A strong Protection build for the late game, IMO, has to think about single target off-tanking as a complement to a warrior, as opposed to replacing a warrior. Hence, Consecration becomes less useful proportionately in the endgame, as you shouldn't need to be holding aggro on multiple targets - someone with better tools to do so is already tasked to do that.

I'd recommend the following build for consideration in that role.

Protection (24)
-Redoubt (5)
-Toughness (5)
-Improved Seal of Fury (5)
-Shield Specialization (5)
-Blessing of Sanctuary (1)
-Holy Shield (1)
-Improved Blessing of Salvation (2)

Holy (11)
-Spiritual Focus (5)
-Illumination (5)
-Divine Favor (1)

Retribution (16)
-Improved Blessing of Might (5)
-Two-Handed Weapon Specialization (5)
-Deflection (5)
-Seal of Command (1)

[Mirajj]

A lot of people I've talked to felt that after a repec, the character wasn't the character anymore, but someone else. I can respect that, and even kinda felt it when I tweaked Mirajj's spec (No major changes, just a few in-tree ones)

My advice would be to wait a bit, until the test servers come back up, try the spec out, and see how the C feels afterwards. If you like the respec feel, then go for it. ;)

[Rinnhart]

Well I was going to start my own thread, but I see no reason to not put all the discussion here.&nbsp; So I'm putting my spec here too.

Having gotten some end game exp now and having worked with some paladins and playing mine to L37 so far I've started to think about the end game roll.&nbsp; It seems to me if there is more than one warrior around the warriors will be the main tanks, off tanks, and possible the main assists.

Endgame, post instances and into raid territory, we're healers. That's it. Spec doesn't matter, much, as our talents to improve healing don't improve it significantly.

In a 5 man the paladin would be more of the main assist, tanking the focus fire target while the warrior is dealing with the non CC'd mobs.&nbsp; The paladin will also be put into the roll of a back up healer.&nbsp; There may be some rare cases where they are called on to be a main tank but in our guild with what we have for classes I don't see that happening as much.&nbsp; Paladins will also be some minor DPS.

To me that seems to rule out much of the protection tree.&nbsp; While the improved seal of fury would help greatly with aggro if you needed to grab it, I'm hoping the slight DPS increase of retribution would help with that too.

Protection is our best utility in a small group situation. Anything that amps up our durability and that of our party is a Good Thing. Holy shield offers an OK area taunt, iBoP is honestly invaluble, and redemption is a second interrupt.

Granted, heavy investment only really shines in PvP, but that's with all our trees.

I do believe that you could put together a paladin build that could be an effective main healer if you gear for it fully work to be the main healer.&nbsp; I'm not looking for that because I doubt that will be the roll a paladin will need to fill either.&nbsp; Besides I have my restoration/feral spec druid that can do that.&nbsp; :)

Build summary, detials on skill to follow:
Retribution Mastery
Improved Blessing of Might&nbsp; - 5/5
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - 5/5
Deflection - 5/5
Vengeance - 5/5
Seal of Command - 1/1
Precision - 3/3
Consecration - 1/1
Conviction - 5/5
Blessing of Kings - 1/1
Retribution Total: 31

Besides iBoM, that's the route into Retribution I've taken. It will, randomly, increase your damage significantly. But to really get returns off Command, you need some heavy +crit gear and a big, slow weapon. Big, slow weapons aren't great for any kind of control-centric tanking. Also, your dps is neither dependable nor going to ever match that of a warrior, rogue, or any motivated class.

Dependability is the real issue, though.

Holy Mastery
Spiritual Focus - 5/5
Improved Holy Light - 3/3
Illumination - 5/5
Divine Favor - 1/1
Improved Seal of Righteousness - 5/5
Improved Flash of Light Rank 1/3
Holy Total: 20



Holy Total: 20
The big question comes down to Improved SoR and Improved Flash of Light.&nbsp; Or Improved Blessing of Wisdom and 1 point in Divine Wisdom (Improved Blessing is a prereq).&nbsp; Divine Wisdom would give me 2% more mana.&nbsp; Blessing of Wisdom talented is 36 vs 30 mana every 5 seconds.&nbsp; My Blessing of Kings will probably help more than either of those as it will increase my mana pool as well.
Edit:&nbsp; Added summary of skills, fixed readability some.

Mana regeneration is king for a class with such a limited mana pool. I never have and never will use BoK on myself. However, those points would certainly be wasted unless you could afford full investment in DW.

I think investing at all in iSoR when you've got Command and such a heavy investment into Retribution is throwing away points. It's redundant. I say drop both iSoR and iFoL and pick up iDevotion

[Rinnhart]

I've been pondering a respec on Sharanna from 31 retribution/21 protection to holy/retribution. But as I look at the talents more and more I just can't make that leap to going cleric. Though I do admit there are times with more healing oomph would really be helpful (most noticeably chain healing Gnolack last night at the General, twice to OOM and finally applying Lay of Hands on him). So I'm considering the following respec:

Protection
Redoubt - 5 points
Toughness - 5 points
Improved Seal of Fury - 5 points
Shield Specialization - 5 points
Reckoning - 5 points
Holy Shield - 1 point

Total Investment - 26 points

Retribution
Improved Blessing of Might - 5 points or Benediction - 5 points
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization -&nbsp; 5 points
Vengeance - 5 points
Seal of Command - 1 point
Anticipation - 5 points
Improved Retibution Aura 3 points
Consecration - 1 point

Total Investment - 25 points

I'm thinking that this setup will maximize my power to defense ratio. One of the question this boils down to is Blessing of Might (which I rarely use as I need mana to regen during fights) versus Benediction (reduces cost of Retribution skills by 15%). As my main mana hogs when tanking are judging Seal of Fury, consecration and holy shield this seems marginally helpful versus Blessing of might.

Thoughts?
[right][snapback]81169[/snapback][/right]

I think it's a mistake for any paladin build to pass up Spiritual Focus. The lack of a good fast cast heal is mitigated, a bit, by having the interruption reduction, especially when it appears you want to be able to tank.

With tanking in mind- might I suggest iBoF? The difference is tangible.

I also think heavy investment in both the shield-based lines of talents in Protection and heavy investment in retribution is a bit counterproductive. You can only have either a shield or a two-hander out at any time, and you will end up using one or the other, more often than not; why invest talents so deeply into abilities you only benefit from occasionally when there are talents that can be used in conjuction with either two handed weapons or one handers and shields?

[Tal]

I think it's a mistake for any paladin build to pass up Spiritual Focus. The lack of a good fast cast heal is mitigated, a bit, by having the interruption reduction, especially when it appears you want to be able to tank. [right][snapback]81376[/snapback][/right]

I thought about that but wasn't certain the three points I had left after making sure I got the skills I wanted would make the difference or not.

With tanking in mind- might I suggest iBoF? The difference is tangible.[right][snapback]81376[/snapback][/right]

It is nice to not have to recast blessings more often but since I forsee Blizzard changing the length of blessings in the future I felt that this was one talent I could skip easily.

I also think heavy investment in both the shield-based lines of talents in Protection and heavy investment in retribution is a bit counterproductive. You can only have either a shield or a two-hander out at any time, and you will end up using one or the other, more often than not; why invest talents so deeply into abilities you only benefit from occasionally when there are talents that can be used in conjuction with either two handed weapons or one handers and shields?
[right][snapback]81376[/snapback][/right]

I like having the flexibility of tanking with a shield while also being able to go 2 hander. :)

[Kevin]

Endgame, post instances and into raid territory, we're healers. That's it. Spec doesn't matter, much, as our talents to improve healing don't improve it significantly.
Protection is our best utility in a small group situation. Anything that amps up our durability and that of our party is a Good Thing. Holy shield offers an OK area taunt, iBoP is honestly invaluble, and redemption is a second interrupt.

Granted, heavy investment only really shines in PvP, but that's with all our trees.
Besides iBoM, that's the route into Retribution I've taken. It will, randomly, increase your damage significantly. But to really get returns off Command, you need some heavy +crit gear and a big, slow weapon. Big, slow weapons aren't great for any kind of control-centric tanking. Also, your dps is neither dependable nor going to ever match that of a warrior, rogue, or any motivated class.

Dependability is the real issue, though.
Mana regeneration is king for a class with such a limited mana pool. I never have and never will use BoK on myself. However, those points would certainly be wasted unless you could afford full investment in DW.

I think investing at all in iSoR when you've got Command and such a heavy investment into Retribution is throwing away points. It's redundant. I say drop both iSoR and iFoL and pick up iDevotion
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Yeah, the dependable damage is always a big worry. iFoL was just a filler point. I've thought more about BoK and can see not putting the point there. iSoR and Commad was a flexibility choice. I use weapon swap macros all the time on my warrior to switch to a one hander/shield and a two hander or in some cases dual wield even (in def stance when you want to up your DPS and aren't taking heavy hits but want your def stance talents for other mob control options it works well). So I was think of similar things with the paladin. And while command is OK with a one hander, it really is the big 2 hander you want with it. I've seen pallies go as the MA, they tank the focus fire target, in that case I would think I would be glad for the extra DPS that iSoR gives me but, yeah, that was a debated spend as well.

More to think about. I've still got plent of time at L37 to tweak it too. :)

[Rinnhart]

I thought about that but wasn't certain the three points I had left after making sure I got the skills I wanted would make the difference or not.

I start builds with those five points invested and go from there. I have a hard enough time getting heals off while taking hits with the talent. If you've never delved very far into Holy, I suggest doing so, some time.

Three points in Spritual Focus will help you alot more than Improved Retribution Aura. Even three points into Deflection might offer better returns.

It is nice to not have to recast blessings more often but since I forsee Blizzard changing the length of blessings in the future I felt that this was one talent I could skip easily.

Heh, sorry, that should be "iSoF(ury)." And you already have that, so just kick me in the mouth and tell me to shut up, anytime.

I like having the flexibility of tanking with a shield while also being able to go 2 hander. :)
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Just saying you're focusing pretty hard on the weapons and ignoring alot of solid utility in protection and holy. It's a shallow build, which I've never been particularly fond of, but it has potential. Similar to what I was looking at a respec or two back. Went full Protection with a minor in Retribution, instead. If I changed anything, I'd drop a couple points from Reckoning to cap Spiritual Focus.

[swirly]

Retribution Mastery
Improved Blessing of Might - Rank 5/5
Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Blessing of Might by 20%.
- Need a skill to get into the tree this has helped me with soloing and there aren't a lot of retribution skills I'll be casting so cutting the mana cost doesn't seem too helpful. This is more beneficial to a party.
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I'd just like to chime in with the main thing that is currently leaning me towards benediction...runners. When I am playing in an area where I am worried about runners, I tend to use the prevent running judgement and Hammer of Justice to stop things. Both of these skills are retribution and so benediction cuts their mana down some. I tend to find that I really start eating through mana when I am worried about runners and so benediction is definately worth it just for that in my mind.

My basic build looks to be the same as others are talking about at the core

Retribution Mastery

Conviction Rank 5
Consecration Rank 1
Seal of Command Rank 1
Deflection Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Benediction Rank 5
Vengeance Rank 5
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization Rank 5

Retribution Total: 30

Holy Mastery

Spiritual Focus Rank 5
Divine Favor Rank 1
Illumination Rank 5
Improved Holy Light Rank 3

Holy Total: 14
Total
Total Points Spent: 44
Level Required: 53

Which leaves 7 points that I have no idea what to do with. It seems to me that these 7 points are the most disputed with everyone though. Anyway, just thought I would point out why I value benediction over might even though in alot of situations I don't need the mana. Its basically a huge help in particular situations (benediction) vs a small constant help (might).

[Rinnhart]

Yeah, the dependable damage is always a big worry.&nbsp; iFoL was just a filler point.&nbsp; I've thought more about BoK and can see not putting the point there.&nbsp; iSoR and Commad was a flexibility choice.&nbsp; I use weapon swap macros all the time on my warrior to switch to a one hander/shield and a two hander or in some cases dual wield even (in def stance when you want to up your DPS and aren't taking heavy hits but want your def stance talents for other mob control options it works well).&nbsp; So I was think of similar things with the paladin.&nbsp; And while command is OK with a one hander, it really is the big 2 hander you want with it.

That first hit for over 2000 is really something after playing most of the game as a holy/protection build. :wub:

Then your mage buddy crits a fireball and PoM pyro.

Because the RNG hates me.

I've seen pallies go as the MA, they tank the focus fire target, in that case I would think I would be glad for the extra DPS that iSoR gives me but, yeah, that was a debated spend as well.

If you mean using SoR in a tanking situation, you're going to be disappointed. Fury outshines everything when it comes to holding aggro (unless you have a warrior, at which point breathing hard on the mob pulls aggro. I can't explain why).

More to think about.&nbsp; I've still got plent of time at L37 to tweak it too.&nbsp; :)
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Aye, and you can always respec.

...just don't pull a me and go broke on 'em.

EDIT:

About Kings- while paladins don't get much mileage out of it, other classes tend to love the buff. I went ahead and got it because there were no retribution paladins in my guild, at the time.

[Rinnhart]

There's a few points I disagree with you on, but I'm gonna pick on your tier 7 talent blurbs:

Those of you who listen to me in guild chat know that I rag on BoK a lot. It's not that I don't see the value in it, but it's like back in the old D2 days when I was the only one who wasn't a huge fan of max Warmth (this was before spell timers and everyone eventually coming around to my view). Yes, it's useful, but not as useful as everyone makes it out to be. BoK's a nice blessing, but it's a "third blessing", because every class is going to have two blessings they want more than BoK. DPS classes will want Salvation and then Wisdom or Might. Warriors will want Sanctuary and Might, and possibly even Light. Salvation is 30% more damage for DPS classes, and similarly,

Agreed. There is never a situation where a cloth class should have kings over wisdom, and only a few where kings is preferable to salvation.

Might adds far more attack power than Kings,

Kings also adds to any agility based defensive ability, hp, mana, ac, regeneration, blocking power, and crit chance for good measure.

while Sanctuary adds far more survivability than Kings. I don't underestimate its value, but I see its limitations clearly, as well.

Any warrior worth grouping with is near the mitigation cap. Crap, any paladin worth keeping around won't receive the listed -damage/hit from Sanctuary.

Sanctuary's a waste of points.

Ugh. Given the way Seal of Justice works, all ISoJ does is rapidly make it so your target is immune to your stuns. And Repentance, the worst CC in the game, has precisely one use I can see - hitting a Ghost Wolf shaman running away with your flag in the Warsong Gulch BG. Doubt it's worth 31 points.

In PvP, especially small group PvP, Repentance is the Paladin's eqaulizer. It's an additional interrupt, it's an additional short stun for healing, it stops those goddamn mages and they can't blink out of it. What's not to like?

When, if ever, is just Sanctity a good choice? Especially over Blessing of Kings? The answer is: if you expect to solo a lot. It's difficult to overstate the anemia that characterizes paladin damage past 40 post SotC-nerf. It's critical to squeeze out every last bit of damage you can, and in that comparison, Sanctity is strictly superior to BoK. BoK does not and cannot provide the enhancement to damage that BoM does, especially if you've got IBoM. Sanctity can be used concurrent with BoM, and combined with SoC can provide a noticeable DPS increase.

I'll take the additional mitigation of Devotion or a resistance aura or the additional damage of Retribution over Sanctity any day. Post 40 soloing is about efficiency, above all else. EFFICIENCY IS YOUR GOD. An efficient paladin's not doing alot of damage. Seals and judgments are mana hogs. Wisdom over all other Blessings, something over the iSoR/Sanctity/Holy Shock line. Horrible waste of talents.

Oh, Holy Shock... when will you stop blowing so much? I love you... but we can never be together. Not like this.

[Skandranon]

Any warrior worth grouping with is near the mitigation cap. Crap, any paladin worth keeping around won't receive the listed -damage/hit from Sanctuary.

The mitigation cap applies to armor only. Sanc is useful specifically because it adds additional mitigation that isn't armor-based. And how the hell do you argue that Sanctuary's a waste of a point and then argue in favour of Improved Devotion, which is subject to the mitigation cap?

Start making sense, please.

In PvP, especially small group PvP, Repentance is the Paladin's eqaulizer. It's an additional interrupt, it's an additional short stun for healing, it stops those goddamn mages and they can't blink out of it. What's not to like?

The fact that you have to blow five points into ISoJ and the fact that you won't be PvPing most of the time.

EFFICIENCY IS YOUR GOD.
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If you have the patience to sit through two minute fights on non elite mobs. Sanctity and SoC. Not as effective, perhaps, but a hell of a lot quicker and more fun to play.

[Rinnhart]

The mitigation cap applies to armor only.&nbsp; Sanc is useful specifically because it adds additional mitigation that isn't armor-based.&nbsp; And how the hell do you argue that Sanctuary's a waste of a point and then argue in favour of Improved Devotion, which is subject to the mitigation cap?

Start making sense, please.

Sanc does not reduce past the minimum hit.

Devotion adds armor to everyone in the party without using up your blessing slot. iDevotion is also the better choice if you'll be using a two hander most of the time and still want talents from the protection tree. Marginal benefit vs. Redoubts lack of benefit.

The fact that you have to blow five points into ISoJ and the fact that you won't be PvPing most of the time.&nbsp;

On a PvE server, that might be the case. PvP? If you're fighting monsters more than players, you're either really out in the sticks or in an instance! And how, exactly, is a stun/interrupt BAD for PvE?

If you have the patience to sit through two minute fights on non elite mobs.&nbsp; Sanctity and SoC.&nbsp; Not as effective, perhaps, but a hell of a lot quicker and more fun to play.
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You call going for repentence a waste of points due to the to the iSoJ req, when it adds a powerful secondary stun/interrupt, but then say sanctity is worth the cost of investing in iSoR, when it adds a whole 10% Holy Damage and uses your aura slot.

[Skandranon]

Sanc does not reduce past the minimum hit.

Yes, yes it does. Minimum mitigation limit is a diminishing-returns formula applied to armor based on armor types. Even if it didn't, the use for slapping it on AoEing mages gives it flexibility and usefulness.

On a PvE server, that might be the case. PvP? If you're fighting monsters more than players, you're either really out in the sticks or in an instance! And how, exactly, is a stun/interrupt BAD for PvE?

I don't play on a PvP server and never will, so saying "PvP server" in response to anything I say is a waste of time. Your points may very well be valid for PvP servers, but I don't know and I don't care.

And a stun/interrupt is bad for PvE when getting it costs you things that have much greater utility. In large raids, the mobs will be immune to Repentance; in smaller ones, like UBRS/Strat/Scholo, your other raid members will have far more effective ways of doing the same thing that don't cost 31 talent points.

You call going for repentence a waste of points due to the to the iSoJ req, when it adds a powerful secondary stun/interrupt, but then say sanctity is worth the cost of investing in iSoR, when it adds a whole 10% Holy Damage and uses your aura slot.
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I specifically say that Sanctity isn't worth the cost unless all you ever intend to do is solo a lot at decent speed. For any serious work, Sanctity is a waste, as well, but if you don't ever intend to be serious about your paladin (I have never intended to take my 60 paladin into endgame instances and probably will not do so much if ever in the future), that's when you take it. I think that point was clearly made in my initial post. Sanctity is a choice you make when your situation is far from typical.

[Rinnhart]

Yes, yes it does.&nbsp; Minimum mitigation limit is a diminishing-returns formula applied to armor based on armor types.&nbsp; Even if it didn't, the use for slapping it on AoEing mages gives it flexibility and usefulness.

BoP.

I don't play on a PvP server and never will, so saying "PvP server" in response to anything I say is a waste of time.&nbsp; Your points may very well be valid for PvP servers, but I don't know and I don't care.

And a stun/interrupt is bad for PvE when getting it costs you things that have much greater utility.&nbsp; In large raids, the mobs will be immune to Repentance; in smaller ones, like UBRS/Strat/Scholo, your other raid members will have far more effective ways of doing the same thing that don't cost 31 talent points.
I specifically say that Sanctity isn't worth the cost unless all you ever intend to do is solo a lot at decent speed.&nbsp; For any serious work, Sanctity is a waste, as well, but if you don't ever intend to be serious about your paladin (I have never intended to take my 60 paladin into endgame instances and probably will not do so much if ever in the future), that's when you take it.&nbsp; I think that point was clearly made in my initial post.&nbsp; Sanctity is a choice you make when your situation is far from typical.
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I refuse to let an observation that damns Repentance stand when it is made through such a limited view of the game.

[Skandranon]

I refuse to let an observation that damns Repentance stand when it is made through such a limited view of the game.
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If you're going to be that way, I refuse to let you recommend Repentance when that recommendation is made through such a limited view of the game.

[Tal]

First report of my respec. I was Main assist in a Scholo raid last night and since our warrior was in berserker stance and using a arcanite axe I ended up being maintank a lot. Initial observations is that I took much much less healing those times where I was tanking by myself (ie all the raid was on the warriors target). This build may be fairly useful after all for tanking/dps purposes. :)

[Rinnhart]

If you're going to be that way, I refuse to let you recommend Repentance when that recommendation is made through such a limited view of the game.
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Yes, because so few people play PvP.

[Skandranon]

Yes, because so few people play PvP.
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Considering that the initial request for help was made by a player who plays on a PvE server and the first two responses were made by people on PvE servers, I would say that you're in the decided minority in this thread. You may play on a PvP server, but then, feel free to not comment on anything in this thread, since none of it is going to accord with your experience at all.