Protection Warrior in 1.6

[Kevin]

So there are a lot of changes coming with 1.6 for warriors and there are some tweaks I wanted to make to Gnolacks build anyway. I've poked around at some of it on the test realms, but I'm still looking for opinions. :)

Anyway here is what I'm looking at.

Protection
Shield Specialization - 5/5
Toughness - 5/5
Iron Will - 5/5
Improved Shield Block - 1/3
Defiance - 5/5
Improved Sunder Armor - 3/3
Improved Taunt - 2/2
Improved Shield Bash - 2/2
Concussion Blow Rank - 1/1
One-Handed Weapon Specialization - 1/5
Shield Slam - 1/1
Protection Total: 31

Fury
Cruelty - 5/5
Improved Demoralizing Shout - 4/5
Unbridled Wrath - 5/5
Piercing Howl - 1/1
Fury Total: 15

Arms
Deflection - 5/5
Arms Total: 5

Debated Points: Unbridled wrath at 5 with Improved Dem shout at only 4. One hand weapon spec (the point to unlock Shield Slam). No tactical mastery at all. Piercing Howl over Anger management.


OK, so why? Well Gnolack is protection spec come hell or high water. It's a bit of a theme. As part of that theme he is an angry little bugger so Fury fits that. But as long as he stays mostly protection, I'm open for change and debate. :) I'll touch on the ones that may not be obvious choices.

Iron Will - It works now. What are the most annoying things to happen when tanking? Getting stunned or charmed (some of the mob stun effects are actually charms too). I don't think this will do anything about the knockbacks but I think I want to give it a try. I dropped Improved Bloodrage and Last Stand to get this.

No Anticipation - I don't have it now and I'm not fully geared up either, but I'm sitting at 377 defense already. There are a few key pieces that will push me up to 400 and not hurt my stamina levels at all (In some cases they will improve them). I pretty much never take a crit as it is and I hear that the 420-430 line is where you don't get critted in MC/Onxyia. I'm close to that already. 10 more defense vs Iron Will or Last Stand wasn't worth it.

Defiance - I'm starting to believe this is the most valuable tank talent there is. I can dem shout and piercing howl on a CC'd mob and when it breaks it comes to me. I've played with several protection warriors that don't have this talent and have better one handed weapons than I do and since I have this I can steal aggro from them regularly even when they are pulling the mob and hitting it before me. I've seen how much easier I can hold 2 mobs through all out AoE than other tanks because of this. Everything I do in defensive stance gets a 15% aggro bonus. I end up tanking a lot without a lot of CC so I have to hold 3 or 4 mobs, defiance makes that simpler too.

Improved Shield Bash - I don't need it for the top tier talent so why get it? Because I can shut up mobs that do things other than cast spells with it. I can go up smack a caster and pull them back out of patrol range, no need to wait on them to cast or get more threat on a mage or priest using a counterspell or silence.

Shield Slam - I know I'm not all about DPS, but there are fights that even my current build without anger management or Unbridled Wrath that I have rage to burn. Besides it's the new warrior toy. So why not get:

Rank 1
30 Rage
5 yard range
Instant
6 second cooldown
Slam the target with your shield, causing 288 to 352 damage and has a 50% chance of dispelling 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a moderate amount of threat.

Rank 4 is the same but it does 450 to 550 damage.

1H Weapon Spec - With my current weapon each point is 1.6 DPS in defensive stance. My current weapon Fiendish Machete isn't that good either. 1.6 DPS is that much more threat and isn't too bad for one point. But I could be convinced to put this point somewhere else.

Cruelty - Again I don't do a lot of DPS, but with this talent my crit chance is around 13%. So I crit about once every 8 swings. It's more rage, it's more aggro it's the mob dying a little faster. Dem Shout breaks sleep and I think another CC option I don't want booming voices higher radius. Dem shout gives me a bit more aggro on everything so I refresh it before the cooldown anyway, I don't need the duration of Booming Voice.

Improved Dem Shout - I don't need it for piercing howl and the old skill was 25% maxed. The new talent is 8/16/24/32/40% so 4 points is better than the old 5. The only worry is if I'm looking at the old improved Sunder. Will a 5 point dem shout lock out my 4 point improvement? But this also means AoE mages take less damage if I get that final point too. 5 points pushes this to a drop of I think 196 attack power, I get 184.8. Old maxed was 175.

Unbridled Wrath - Rage is good. I don't have tactical mastery or anger management. So I just lost charge and stance switch rage (and there are times when, if I miss on the swing, I don't have the rage to thunderclap to burn it off before a switch or else I break the CC that is incoming so I will switch right away instead of risking a T-clap breaking the sheep or shackle that is currently being cast). 40% chance to get one more rage along with 1 rage every time I block is a decent little flow of rage that makes up for no anger management.

Piercing Howl - I debated this skill too. I use it, it's another AoE aggro generator. An AoE Hamstring is nice too. It slows down the mobs that are running out of the flame strike and into Improve Arcane explosion. It gives me a little more PvP utility. It can help with runners a bit. However I don't use it as much as I should right now I don't think so I debated it some.


Edit: Fixed the rogue charm thing and a few typos.

[lemekim]

So there are a lot of changes coming with 1.6 for warriors and there are some tweaks I wanted to make to Gnolacks build anyway.  I've poked around at some of it on the test realms, but I'm still looking for opinions.  :)

Anyway here is what I'm looking at.

Protection
Shield Specialization - 5/5
Toughness - 5/5
Iron Will - 5/5
Improved Shield Block - 1/3
Defiance - 5/5
Improved Sunder Armor - 3/3
Improved Taunt - 2/2
Improved Shield Bash - 2/2
Concussion Blow Rank - 1/1
One-Handed Weapon Specialization - 1/5
Shield Slam - 1/1
Protection Total: 31

Fury
Cruelty - 5/5
Improved Demoralizing Shout - 4/5
Unbridled Wrath - 5/5
Piercing Howl - 1/1
Fury Total: 15

Arms
Deflection - 5/5
Arms Total: 5

Debated Points: Unbridled wrath at 5 with Improved Dem shout at only 4.  One hand weapon spec (the point to unlock Shield Slam).  No tactical mastery at all.  Piercing Howl over Anger management. 
OK, so why?  Well Gnolack is protection spec come hell or high water.  It's a bit of a theme.  As part of that theme he is an angry little bugger so Fury fits that.  But as long as he stays mostly protection, I'm open for change and debate.  :)  I'll touch on the ones that may not be obvious choices.

Iron Will - It works now.  What are the most annoying things to happen when tanking?  Getting stunned or charmed (some of the rogue stuns are actually charms).  I don't think this will do anything about the knockbacks but I think I want to give it a try.  I dropped Improved Bloodrage and Last Stand to get this.

No Anticipation - I don't have it now and I'm not fully geared up either, but I'm sitting at 377 defense already.  There are a few key pieces that will push me up to 400 and not hurt my stamina levels at all (In some cases they will improve them).  I pretty much never take a crit as it is and I hear that the 420-430 line is where you don't get critted in MC/Onxyia.  I'm close to that already.  10 more defense vs Iron Will or Last Stand wasn't worth it.

Defiance - I'm starting to believe this is the most valuable tank talent there is.  I can dem shout and piercing howl on a CC'd mob and when it breaks it comes to me.  I've played with several protection warriors that don't have this talent and have better one handed weapons than I do and since I have this I can steal aggro from them regularly even when they are pulling the mob and hitting it before me. I've seen how much easier I can hold 2 mobs through all out AoE than other tanks because of this.  Everything thing I do in defensive stance gets a 15% aggro bonus.  I end up tanking a lot without a lot of CC so I have to hold 3 or 4 mobs, defiance makes that simpler too.

Improved Shield Bash - I don't need it for the top tier talent so why get it?  Because I can shut up mobs that do things other than cast spells with it.  I can go up smack a caster and pull them back out of patrol range, no need to wait on them to cast or get more threat on a mage or priest using a counterspell or silence.

Shield Slam - I know I'm not all about DPS, but there are fights that even my current build without anger management or Unbridled Wrath that I have rage to burn.  Besides it's the new warrior toy. So why not get:

Rank 1
30 Rage
5 yard range
Instant
6 second cooldown
Slam the target with your shield, causing 288 to 352 damage and has a 50% chance of dispelling 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a moderate amount of threat.

Rank 4 is the same but it does 450 to 550 damage.

1H Weapon Spec - With my current weapon each point is 1.6 DPS in defensive stance.  My current weapon Fiendish Machete isn't that good either.  1.6 DPS is that much more threat and isn't too bad for one point.  But I could be convinced to put this point somewhere else.

Cruelty - Again I don't do a lot of DPS, but with this talent my crit chance is around 13%.  So I crit about once every 8 swings.  It's more rage, it's more aggro it's the mob dying a little faster.  Dem Shout breaks sleep and I think another CC option I don't want booming voices higher radius.  Dem shout gives me a bit more aggro on everything so I refresh is before the cooldown anyway, I don't need the duration of Booming Voice.

Improved Dem Shout - I don't need it for piercing howl and the old skill was 25% maxed.  The new talent is 8/16/24/32/40% so 4 points is better than the old 5.  The only worry is if I'm looking at the old improved Sunder.  Will a 5 point dem shout lock out my 4 point improvement?  But this also means AoE mages take less damage if I get that final point too.  5 points pushes this to a drop of I think 196 attack power, I get 184.8.  Old maxed was 175.

Unbridled Wrath - Rage is good.  I don't tactical mastery or anger management.  So I just lost charge and stance switch rage (and there are times when if i miss on the swing I don't have the rage to thunderclap to burn it off before a switch or else I break the CC that is incoming so I will switch right away).  40% chance to get one more rage along with 1 rage every time I block is decent little flow of rage that makes up for no anger management.

Piercing Howl - I debated this skill too.  I use it, it's another AoE aggro generator.  An AoE Hamstring is nice too.  It slows down the mobs that are running out of the flame strike and into Improve Arcane explosion.  It gives me a little more PvP utility.  It can help with runners a bit.  However I don't use it as much as I should right now I don't think.
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I would get at least some Tactical Mastery, so you can switch to Battle Stance for T-Clap/Execute/Mocking Blow, or Berserker Stance for Intercept. Much more useful then Unbridled Wrath imo.

Also, none of the rogue attacks are charms - they are either stuns (Cheat Shot, Kidney Shot), Disorients/Knockouts (Gouge/Sap, you can break out of it with Berserker Rage anyway), or poisons (Blind). The stun resist is not a bad thing, but I don't know if you want to give up Last Stand for it.

[Kevin]

I would get at least some Tactical Mastery, so you can switch to Battle Stance for T-Clap/Execute/Mocking Blow, or Berserker Stance for Intercept. Much more useful then Unbridled Wrath imo.

Also, none of the rogue attacks are charms - they are either stuns (Cheat Shot, Kidney Shot), Disorients/Knockouts (Gouge/Sap, you can break out of it with Berserker Rage anyway), or poisons (Blind). The stun resist is not a bad thing, but I don't know if you want to give up Last Stand for it.
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Thanks for the correction on the rogue stuff, I actually misread Iron will as disorients not charms but I typed it correctly in my explanation.

Last Stand was a debate too. It has saved me from dying. But I'm still not happy with the way the skill works and I figured an always active passive vs a 10 minute cooldown skill that I forget I have at times was a good choice. If the skill added a true HP buffer, I'd be all over it. As it is without your healer knowing that you used it when it wears of it looks like you took a crit. It isn't a bad skill at all though even in the current implementation but I think Iron will might have more utility.

I debated tactical mastery hard as well, but tactical mastery without going all the way to anger management I don't think is the best choice.

I have 3 in tactical mastery right now. The switch out to do T-Clap is of minimal use at best and not usable at all around CC and without 5 points in it you need to build rage after a switch for a T-clap so you are taking more damage in that time. Switch to execute has been helpful, but it is nearly pointless in a raid as the mob is dead pretty much as soon as it gets to 20% or less health anyway except on a few bosses. Even then with no improvements to it I'm only likely to hit for for about 300 to 500 damage at best (unless I crit because I'll only have 15 or 20 rage at switch) and I can shield slam for that now. Mocking blow is of minimal use as taunt is available most of the time and I don't need even it to get a mobs attention back most of the time anyway, a defiance backed sunder is your friend :). So I lose what I mentioned earlier, easy def stance rage after a charge and an easier intercept. Intercept is handy but is more important for the tank on protection duty than the main tank. Without maxing tactical mastery you will tend to lose a lot of rage on changes as well since what you want to change for in most cases isn't something you can wait to time it so you are at just 10 or 15 or 20 rage.

If I go deeper in arms I will get the hugely powerful anger management. But that means no piercing howl at all since I'm getting shield slam. The idea is to use Unbridled to make up for lack of anger management to some degree. If you haven't played without anger management you should see how much rage you are missing out on. :) And yes I realize that I'm saying I should get it, and then I increase my flexibility even more with more tac mastery as well. But I also don't think Gnolack needs to be more flexible right now. He's limited to mostly guild groups and raids with CA folks and others that I know for various reasons. So I have Shalandrax an Arms/Fury around, Galreth an Anger management protection spec, Darian an anger management protection spec and I think Anadrol is also anger management prot spec. So I'm also looking at it with that in mind. Gnolack is the little immovable object.

Thanks for the thoughts though, keep me thinking. :)

Edit: Fixed some typos

[Olon97]

The prot build I'm strongly considering is 13 Arms (Anger management & Imp. Overpower), 5 Fury (cruelty), and 31 in Prot (with 5/5 1h mastery) and two points to taste - I may go for imp. heroic strike.

It would be my first time without piercing howl in a long time, but given the boost to the non-talented hamstring, I think it would be workable.

For someone who played without Tactical Mastery for a long time (1-60 and many weeks thereafter), I've become accustomed to having it recently. My main use for it while tanking is the ability to switch to zerker stance extremely briefly when I have ~20-25 rage, pop a quick whirlwind with a 2H, and switch immediately back to prot with a shield. Does wonders for holding aggro on multiple targets and the rage conservation means less time spent in zerker stance with the -10% damage modifier.

[Darian]

But I also don't think Gnolack needs to be more flexible right now.  He's limited to mostly guild groups and raids with CA folks and others that I know for various reasons.  So I have Shalandrax an Arms/Fury around, Galreth an Anger management protection spec, Darian an anger management protection spec and I think Anadrol is also anger management prot spec.
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Minor, soon to be inapplicable correction: Darian is currently a piercing howl protection spec. ;)

However, once 1.6 comes out and we get our free respec, you're right; I'm going back to anger management.

[Kevin]

The prot build I'm strongly considering is 13 Arms (Anger management & Imp. Overpower), 5 Fury (cruelty), and 31 in Prot (with 5/5 1h mastery) and two points to taste - I may go for imp. heroic strike.

It would be my first time without piercing howl in a long time, but given the boost to the non-talented hamstring, I think it would be workable.

For someone who played without Tactical Mastery for a long time (1-60 and many weeks thereafter), I've become accustomed to having it recently. My main use for it while tanking is the ability to switch to zerker stance extremely briefly when I have ~20-25 rage, pop a quick whirlwind with a 2H, and switch immediately back to prot with a shield. Does wonders for holding aggro on multiple targets and the rage conservation means less time spent in zerker stance with the -10% damage modifier.
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I was actually thinking about putting points into improved cleave with my build up there as well. It's a bit easier to control what it hits for multiple mobs and it goes from 50 damage to 110 bonus damage on the cleave with the new rework. But yeah, tactical mastery and anger management almost seem to be must haves for any warrior and I think part of my avoidance of them is my annoyance at that. :)

[Olon97]

But yeah, tactical mastery and anger management almost seem to be must haves for any warrior and I think part of my avoidance of them is my annoyance at that.  :)

I hear you there. Every time I read people browbeating and insulting anyone who wants to try a non 31/20 build on the Blizzard forums, it makes me sick. I'm sickened by the powergamer mentality that rules there, as well as the fact that in terms of optimal PvP build, they're pretty much right.

Edit: I'm currently 11 arms, 29 prot, 11 fury. If I find myself not liking shield slam enough to justify losing piercing howl, I'll probably go back.

[Drasca]

I'd get Iron Will over Last stand. Iron will would help your solo and group play, whereas last stand won't help when there's lots of healing available to you already. The last thing you want happening is getting stunned and the pve mobs ignoring you for being stunned. Much more useful than a bit of health, right?

Also, Piercing Howl is extremely useful in pvp and aoe environment. When things go wrong, you'll want aoe slow before everything gets pulled every which direction.

The shield bash/slam should be a lot more useful than you'd think. A lot of the caster classes PvE, and some melee classes pvp have armor buffs and sometimes other disgusting buffs. A warrior able to dispel them is extremely powerful.

[Kevin]

I'd get Iron Will over Last stand. Iron will would help your solo and group play, whereas last stand won't help when there's lots of healing available to you already. The last thing you want happening is getting stunned and the pve mobs ignoring you for being stunned. Much more useful than a bit of health, right?

Also, Piercing Howl is extremely useful in pvp and aoe environment. When things go wrong, you'll want aoe slow before everything gets pulled every which direction.

The shield bash/slam should be a lot more useful than you'd think. A lot of the caster classes PvE, and some melee classes pvp have armor buffs and sometimes other disgusting buffs. A warrior able to dispel them is extremely powerful.
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Yep, that was my thinking on Iron Will as well. You stated it a bit better than I did. :)

Same with Piercing howl. I've survived without anger management (though I have loved it on test respecs) and it is that or howl since I am getting the new shield slam toy. :)

I was debating the usefulness of the 50% debuff chance on slam since I don't do a lot of outside reading about mobs and such until I've encountered them myself first (I still like the discovery factor). Good to know that it will be more fun than I thought it would. I already love the improved bash for 3 second silence.

You summed up some of my thoughts on the choices I made pretty well there, even if I didn't point it out in my other musings.

[Concillian]

I'm debating what to do as well, and think that the new talent is definitely a better option than the previous option. It should create similar aggro, but instead of doing it by doing relatively insignificant damage, it will do it through a quite substantial amount of damage, which also makes the skill useful in PvP.

As I can't see myself living without piercing howl AND tactical mastery I'm planning on a similar build to what I had before with some talent swiching mostly in protection:

fury:
the boring 5 Cruelty / 5 Imp demo / 1 Piercing Howl

Arms:
5 parry / 4 tac. mastery

Prot:
5 shield spec / 5 toughness / 5 iron will
1 imp shield block / 3 or 5 defiance
2 imp shield bash / 1 concussion blow
3 or 5 1H spec
1 shield slam

I have skimped on some of the tanking talents (imp. taunt, last stand / imp. bloodrage) . I'm debating on the 1H spec or defiance as either making tanking slightly easier or adding a small amount of damage. I don't think either choice is particularly style-breaking.

For me the tac. mastery is pretty essential for PvP situations, being able to intercept or WW easily if I need to switch stances. The lack of anger management here is of lesser concern as you tend to stay in combat quite a bit when in battlegrounds.

I really like the new talent. It adds an instant attack that does signficant damage to the protection tree. This makes defensive stance signficantly more viable for PvP and solo... kind of like a mini-mortal strike. It reduces the damage defecit between the styles and makes it so that someone who takes protection isn't nearly as gimp in PvP as 1.5, allowing a more 'balanced' build for someone like me, who may do some instances in endgame and may do some PvP in endgame, whatever I feel like.

[Kevin]

I hear you there. Every time I read people browbeating and insulting anyone who wants to try a non 31/20 build on the Blizzard forums, it makes me sick. I'm sickened by the powergamer mentality that rules there, as well as the fact that in terms of optimal PvP build, they're pretty much right.

Edit: I'm currently 11 arms, 29 prot, 11 fury. If I find myself not liking shield slam enough to justify losing piercing howl, I'll probably go back.
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Yeah same on the feelings. With the build that was a tweak to my current build I was looking at. I'm currently 8 arms (3 tactical for just enough to hold all the rage of a charge), 31 prot, 11 fury. But Shield Discipline sucks, I use it every now and then but I was going to spec out of it. Then I saw free respec in 1.6 so I'm waiting. :) But yeah, if slam is not to my liking (it's been fun on test so far) I will probably spec to anger management and piercing howl and drop unbridled wrath and be like most of the other protection specs out there. :)

I did a rage spec on test with unbridled instead of improved Dem (so I had howl, and anger management) and I was a little rage machine in def stance with my one hander. The one rage from my 13% block chance the 1 rage every few seconds from anger management and the 1 rage from 40% chance with unbridled really started to add up. I saw a "you gain 1 rage" in the combat log a lot. I also did a non piercing spec with slam and only 4 points in unbridled. It was pretty much the same (32 vs 40% on unbridled) and I was shield slamming all the time. :)

Keep in mind as I posted in another thread slam is affected by def stance it suffers the 10% damage reduction penalty (so 405 to 495 damage on base attack now for rank 4). It seems to use your weapons crit percent for how it crits, just like bash. Armor on mobs reduce the damage (so sunder is still your friend here). It, like shield bash, doesn't care if you have a shield spike (which disappointed me). I don't think it was ever blocked, dodged, or parried in my tests, but I imagine it could be since shield bash can be. I always hate it when my shield bash is blocked. :)

[Olon97]

One other thing to keep in mind for those with good tank gear setups... If the sum of your parry & dodge percentages is greater than 25%, using the shield block skill (or talent) actually overrides your chance to parry and dodge by the amount of overlap for the duration of the ability. That 80 blocked damage doesn't excite me quite as much when I realize that I'm losing a chance at 800 blocked damage (hypothetical #s). For that reason, I don't plan on even getting one point in the Imp. Shield Block talent (I'll still get the tier 1 talent for increased passive revenge triggers).

At the very least, I plan on using my free re-spec to get rid of improved revenge points and still pick up Concussion Blow without its pre-reqs.

[Kevin]

One other thing to keep in mind for those with good tank gear setups... If the sum of your parry & dodge percentages is greater than 25%, using the shield block skill (or talent) actually overrides your chance to parry and dodge by the amount of overlap for the duration of the ability. That 80 blocked damage doesn't excite me quite as much when I realize that I'm losing a chance at 800 blocked damage (hypothetical #s). For that reason, I don't plan on even getting one point in the Imp. Shield Block talent (I'll still get the tier 1 talent for increased passive revenge triggers).

At the very least, I plan on using my free re-spec to get rid of improved revenge points and still pick up Concussion Blow without its pre-reqs.
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Hmm, now you that you mention it I rarely use shield block anymore anyway. It used to be used to trigger a revenge and hope for improved revenge to go off (Gnolack's been protection his whole career) and that was quite nice in the lower instances when I wasn't playing with people who had tons of stun chances as well. But in these higher instance I just don't use it because with ~13% parry, dodge, and block, revenge is lit up all the time and I fire it off all the time anyway for the extra aggro. I actually use the crappy shield discipline more than shield block now. With shield slam I won't want to use rage on block either.

With this info I think my one point in that talent is gone and off to something else, maybe 2 in 1H spec or those 2 into shield wall or improved disarm (since disarm is about the only special you can do to some of the boss mobs so longer duration is good, that is much more damage removed from the fight as well as stopping MS from mobs than shield block could ever hope for as well).

[Treesh]

improved disarm (since disarm is about the only special you can do to some of the boss mobs so longer duration is good, that is much more damage removed from the fight as well as stopping MS from mobs than shield block could ever hope for as well).
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For what it's worth, riposte (a rogue's version of disarm) is the key for Eth to be able to off-tank elite critters even in BRD at level 55. When evasion wears off, but I'm still needed to offtank, riposte (and stuns) for the win and it so helps me to not eat the healer's mana or have the healer focus solely on me. The best is when a mob looks at me just long enough for me to get a riposte in and then it goes back to the tank sans weapon. ;) Being able to disarm and disarm for longer is a great tool.

[Thawwing Light]

I like your build ideas. That said, here's mine. It's a combination of what I find useful in my own experiences adn what this thread suggests as useful in endgame instances and raids:

Arms: 11 Points

5/5 Deflection
5/5 Tactical Mastery
1/1 Anger Management

Fury:

5/5 Cruelty
4/5 Unbridled Wrath

Protection
5/5 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
5/5 Defiance
3/3 Imp. Revenge
2/2 Imp. Taunt
2/2 Imp. Shield Wall
2/2 Imp. Shield Bash
1/1 Concussive Blow
5/5 One Handed Mastery
1/1 Shield Slam

The Arms and Fury sections are fairly obvious - maximizing Rage. Tac Mastery, Anger Management, and Unbridled Wrath all help that. I chose AM over Piercing Howl, but that may change... or I might lose the top off Prot for the pair. It's all about the tradeoffs.

Protection... I have reasons for everything I took. Defiance and 1handed mastery should give me a huge overall boost in hate generation Dumping spare rage in Shield Slam should help with that, and that gives me a nice PvP skill. Imp. Taunt is all about when things go wrong, which happens. Conc Blow is my choice of Stun, and I also took Imp. Revenge because although it doesn work as well with rogues and diminishings Stuns and such, it's another stun and that's nice to have. I also reccommend checking out Imp. Shield Wall. As warriors, we all know how wonderful this skill is, and giving your healers another 5 seconds of 85% damage reduction never hurt anyone.

The only real points I debate, besides the big 'pick 2 of 3 rocking skills' debate, is the Imp. Revenge points. I'm considering swapping them to Imp. Disarm or Imp. Sunder Armor, the first of which would also have nice PvP utility and help a tiny bit against bosses, and the second of which would give me still more rage to work with.

Thoughts? I think a lot of the details in these builds is personal taste... and I'm curious to see what others think.

[Kevin]

Alright so I get to respec tomorrow. I've changed my mind a bit from the original post. Keep in mind Gnolack will be protection spec even if you can tank better with a deep arms or deep fury build. Its what he is. I'm not doing a build with less than 25 points in protection, ever with him. So here is what I'm looking at now.

Protection
Shield Specialization - 5/5
Toughness - 5/5
Iron Will - 5/5
Defiance - 5/5
Improved Sunder Armor - 3/3
Improved Taunt - 2/2
Improved Shield Bash - 2/2
Concussion Blow Rank - 1/1
Improved Shield Wall - 2/2
Shield Slam - 1/1
Protection Total: 31

Fury
Cruelty - 5/5
Improved Demoralizing Shout - 5/5
Unbridled Wrath - 4/5
Piercing Howl - 1/1
Fury Total: 15

Arms
Deflection - 5/5
Arms Total: 5

Some thoughts on things. I prefer to 5 man, and I still have a lot of things that I need to 5 man and I would always rather 5 man a place than raid it even if we are after loot for someone.

So that is why Improved Taunt and Improved Sunder armor which are mainly "oh #$%&" moment talents are staying, 2 seconds or 3 fewer rage on your main lock down skill can be the difference between a dead priest or mage or a live one. Improved Shield block stays for it's high level of utility in 5 man situations as well.

One hand spec would actually be a bit more helpful for raids and such where you can tank without a shield at all for most everything and dual wield and such, but I dropped those.

I'm still not going with Last Stand and that is not an easy choice. Improved Bloodrage isn't that helpful and it becomes even less helpful the more people you have around. Last Stand has it's uses. I actually used it 4 times in Onyxia tonight and it kept me alive two of those times. The attempt where we had a lot of deaths in phase one I got thrown into the whelp room. I drank my heal pot, and hit shield wall. The 10 seconds of shield wall wasn't long enough for help to get to me, it took the help about 12 seconds. So I hit Last Stand and survived and was then one less corpse that needed to be rezzed. The whelps still would have been contained even if I didn't have it. There was another time where there was a whelp break out that I gathered with some dem shouts. The big lizard decided that would be a good time to hit me with a couple of fireballs, potion for the first and Last Stand after the 2nd, kept the whelps that were hitting me from killing me while help arrived and I was able to bandage out of it again it just saved a rezzer for having to try and bring me up. The other two times were in phase 2 to phase 3 transitions. Both of those times it didn't really do any good.

So, the verdict is still mixed. I'm willing to let it go so that I can have 15% chance to avoid stuns and charms which just annoy the hell out of me. Last Stand has no utility in loot raids. A 10 man Baron run has zero chance for Last Stand to be of any help. It has helped in some solo situations to give me a bit more time to run, it has helped in questing with a duo when we chain fight stuff for whatever reason and we need just a few more seconds for that heal to land. It has helped me prevent wipes in 5 man runs as well. It has also been utterly pointless since the heals were coming or me staying up for 5-15 more seconds was going to do anything anyway. It is another skill that seems to get less and less useful as the character gets older. It is less useful when you have highly skilled players with you. While I'm getting better I'm still mostly playing with Lurkers and CA and they have enough skill to cover for it. If I did more public raids I think it would be harder to let last stand go.

My build is actually using improved shield wall as my replacement for last stand. 6 more seconds of 75% damage reduction trumps a heal pot type ability.

I've decided Anger Management is out. I've never actually had it and been successful. While I would like to PvP more with Gnolack, I'm not willing to spend my time doing that right now. I know it's a very handy skill and I'm going to miss tactical mastery as well. So I'm getting unbridled wrath to help with rage generation (no one hand weapon spec either and that is a the protection tree rage generation helper). I'm doing 5 in improved dem shout because I do not want to see the whole "a more powerful effect is active" when I try to use it, I don't know if that is the case but it does scare me. I want more rage so I can do more shield slams. Since I'm not getting Anger Management I have to get piercing howl.

If unbridled wrath doesn't give me good rage returns I might put 3 points into improved cleave. I still cleave a fair bit, and 1 point into 1H weapon spec, or just all 4 points in 1H spec as 8% more damage could very well be as good as 32% chance to get one more rage in the long run.

Doing some DM West runs will probably do more for my rage generation (via a better one hander) than any talents could anyway. :)

[Raven Vale]

Keep us up to date with how things pan out , I'm looking for a decent protection build and interested in how things go for your build . Cheers for the info so far .

[Olon97]

I had to prove to myself that I would hold less aggro with a fury bulid (using some excel calculations) before I could settle on sticking with Protection.

My current spec has been very successful for me (ignore the gear, just my fire res kit in progress). I'm frequently the designated offtank/2nd tank for Basin raids on Tich and I feel very confident in 5-man situations. The last thing that I encountered that I haven't figured out yet is the Shaman quest event in Scholo (the one that requires a full clear of Rattlegore's room) - holding aggro on 9 elites without room to kite for fear of aggroing more was not fun. Wipe free 5-man strat (both sides), check. The rest of Scholo, check. The ogre head event in LBRS and surviving that stupid warlord's command boss that hits like a truck... check. DM West prince fight without losing aggro for more than half a second - check (only on my most recent attempt).

So... anyway, if I don't like my respec I will have no hesitation in going back to an 11/29/11.

That said, my new plan is:
15 arms:
2 Imp H. Strike (a staple rage dump w/o a timer and good aggro). Choosing this over unbridled wrath because I'm toying around with the "HS for burst damage" concept.
5 Deflection.
Anger Management (the rage generation of 3-4 unbridled wrath for only 1 talent point).
2 Imp. Overpower (I am on a PvP server, make alliance rogues earn their kills).

31 Prot:
5 Shield Spec. - for passive overpower triggering. Around 20% chance to block when using barrier shield with +2% block enchant. That's 1 free rage on 1/5 incoming physical attacks. One more piece of Might Set and the mitigation won't be half bad in some fights.
5 Toughness - There is no diminishing returns on armor in terms of increasing survivability (it's linear), approaching 8k in melee tank gear with this.
5 Iron Will - 15% less chance to lose aggro in some of the game's trickiest 5-man fights. Annoy stunlock rogues in PvP too.
5 Defiance - I'm a big believer in this talent. Yes, skills generate the most hate, but base damage aggro sets the baseline and is often the first line of defense when specials' cooldowns aren't up.
2 Imp. Shield Wall - I like to blow shield wall right at the start of a hard fight to get a big lead over heal aggro. The talent gives me some extra lead time - a luxury choice.
2 Imp. Shield Bash - I've been dying to pop this out on an unsuspecting caster in PvP but never had the room for it. Thank god for imp. revenge no longer being a pre-req.
Concussion Blow - my favorite way to "hold" an add in a 5-man. Lets me get back to our main target and allows CC on the target afterwards at the CC class' leisure.
5 1H Mastery - Rage->Skills->Aggro. This talent takes care of the rage component nicely. Nice synergy with defiance.
1 Shield Slam - take the new puppy out for a test drive.

5 Fury:
Cruelty. I don't think I could ever make a build without it. See 1H mastery comments for PvE justificaiton. Pretty essential for PvP where I really only expect to win many one on one encounters if I can get a lucky crit streak.

[Lissa]

Thanks for the correction on the rogue stuff, I actually misread Iron will as disorients not charms but I typed it correctly in my explanation.

Last Stand was a debate too.  It has saved me from dying.  But I'm still not happy with the way the skill works and I figured an always active passive vs a 10 minute cooldown skill that I forget I have at times was a good choice.  If the skill added a true HP buffer, I'd be all over it.  As it is without your healer knowing that you used it when it wears of it looks like you took a crit.  It isn't a bad skill at all though even in the current implementation but I think Iron will might have more utility.

I debated tactical mastery hard as well, but tactical mastery without going all the way to anger management I don't think is the best choice.

I have 3 in tactical mastery right now.  The switch out to do T-Clap is of minimal use at best and not usable at all around CC and without 5 points in it you need to build rage after a switch for a T-clap so you are taking more damage in that time.  Switch to execute has been helpful, but it is nearly pointless in a raid as the mob is dead pretty much as soon as it gets to 20% or less health anyway except on a few bosses.  Even then with no improvements to it I'm only likely to hit for for about 300 to 500 damage at best (unless I crit because I'll only have 15 or 20 rage at switch) and I can shield slam for that now.  Mocking blow is of minimal use as taunt is available most of the time and I don't need even it to get a mobs attention back most of the time anyway, a defiance backed sunder is your friend :).  So I lose what I mentioned earlier, easy def stance rage after a charge and an easier intercept.  Intercept is handy but is more important for the tank on protection duty than the main tank.  Without maxing tactical mastery you will tend to lose a lot of rage on changes as well since what you want to change for in most cases isn't something you can wait to time it so you are at just 10 or 15 or 20 rage.

If I go deeper in arms I will get the hugely powerful anger management.  But that means no piercing howl at all since I'm getting shield slam.  The idea is to use Unbridled to make up for lack of anger management to some degree.  If you haven't played without anger management you should see how much rage you are missing out on.  :)  And yes I realize that I'm saying I should get it, and then I increase my flexibility even more with more tac mastery as well.  But I also don't think Gnolack needs to be more flexible right now.  He's limited to mostly guild groups and raids with CA folks and others that I know for various reasons.  So I have Shalandrax an Arms/Fury around, Galreth an Anger management protection spec, Darian an anger management protection spec and I think Anadrol is also anger management prot spec.  So I'm also looking at it with that in mind.  Gnolack is the little immovable object.

Thanks for the thoughts though, keep me thinking.  :)

Edit:  Fixed some typos
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One of the best uses of a macro I have seen came from Charsi of IA. Whenever Charsi activates Last Stand, there is a chat comment in all caps and astericks in order to draw attention of the healers that Last Stand was activated. Hopefully, the healer knows what Last Stand is about and does something before the timer runs out.

[LavCat]

Four more points -- the agony!

Fafner went Protection in hope of being invited to a few more parties. (This a week and a half after she finally fleshed out her previous build of Furry/Arms.) After the patch removed all her talents she did a Scarlet run and had some difficulty. We wiped on the second pull. Eventually we finished.

Last night she was invited to UBRS. I am a firm believer that one should never assign all one's talent points while in an instance, so she has four left. Here is her current build so far:


Arms:

Deflection 5
Tactical Mastery 5
Anger Management 1


Protection:

Anticipation 5
Shield Specialization 5
Toughness 5
Iron Will 5
Defiance 2
Improved Shield Bash 2
Concussion Blow 1 (She always wanted to be a paladin.)
One-Handed Weapon Specialization 5
Shield Slam 1


Fury:

Cruelty 5



The choices for the last four points include:

Improved Demoralizing Shout
Improved Shield Wall
Improved Sunder Armor
more Defiance
Improved Charge (yes, really)


What should she do? Keep in mind that she spends most of her time solo and that she still needs a mount. Rage usage reduction skills like Improved Sunder Armor might be OK solo, but do not seem important in instance groups. When she dies solo it is usually with zero rage. When she dies in instances it is typically with full rage. On the other hand Sunder Armor is her staple skill.

More Defiance could be useful in instances for all the reasons noted, particularly when the paladin keeps Blessing of Salvation on you like last night in UBRS. (Maybe it's a gnome thing?)

Soloing, Defiance is less useful.

She misses Improved Charge from her former build. She may not want to give it up.

Improved Demoralizing Shout would be nice too. Gnollguy said "Dem Shout breaks sleep..." I'm not sure if what was meant was "sleep" or "sheep" but last night Fafner walked up to a sheep and demoralized it without problem. That or there was a lot of lag. And no, the sheep was not in Elwynn Forest. I don't know of any player spell that sleeps anymore, at least that people use in instance groups. I need to test this a bit further, but it would be terrible if Demoralizing Shout could not be spammed in instances.

Thoughts or ideas welcome. I would love to read what other folks have done.