London

[Occhidiangela]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0707/dailyUpdate2.html

Is anyone surprised? I rolled neither a one, nor a two. :angry:

Occhi

[Nystul]

I turned on ESPN2 a few minutes ago hoping to see some exciting reruns of Texas hold-em or women's 9-ball, and had this sports news dropped on me instead. The sickening part is the feeling of inevitability... no amount of security can stop this, no amount of white flags can end it, and getting to the root of the issue seems virtually impossible.

Any bright ideas?

[Occhidiangela]

I turned on ESPN2 a few minutes ago hoping to see some exciting reruns of Texas hold-em or women's 9-ball, and had this sports news dropped on me instead.  The sickening part is the feeling of inevitability... no amount of security can stop this, no amount of white flags can end it, and getting to the root of the issue seems virtually impossible.

Any bright ideas?
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There were two men who got it: Richard the Lionhearted and Barbarosa.

Occhi

[Doc]

There were two men who got it: Richard the Lionhearted and Barbarosa. 

Occhi
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Barbarosa? That zombie pirate captain from Pirates of the Caribbean? What did he do?

**Ducks**

[Occhidiangela]

Barbarosa? That zombie pirate captain from Pirates of the Caribbean? What did he do?

**Ducks**
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That was Barbosa. <_< Funny, as a pirate he gave up the ar in his name for the "AR!" in his speech! :D

Occhi

Somefolks do, and some folks don't, understand the nature of the conflict. If you don't understand the nature of the conflict, it is hard to win it or even end it on suitable terms.

Rebels In Iraq Threaten To Kill Abducted Diplomat

Egyptian Called Traitor to Islam in Statement Purportedly From Al Qaeda Group

By Andy Mosher, Washington Post Foreign Service

BAGHDAD, July 6 -- Al Qaeda in Iraq said Wednesday that it would execute an Egyptian diplomat who was kidnapped in Baghdad four days ago, calling him a traitor to Islam and representative of a country that is "allied to Jews and Christians," according to a statement on an Internet site associated with al Qaeda.

The statement said an al Qaeda Islamic law court would hand the diplomat, Ihab Sherif, over to the group's guerrillas "to carry out the punishment of the apostate . . . and to kill him."

[Doc]

That was Barbosa.&nbsp; <_<&nbsp; Funny, as a pirate he gave up the ar in his name for the "AR!" in his speech!&nbsp; :D

Occhi

Somefolks do, and some folks don't, understand the nature of the conflict.&nbsp; If you don't understand the nature of the conflict, it is hard to win it or even end it on suitable terms.

Rebels In Iraq Threaten To Kill Abducted Diplomat

Egyptian Called Traitor to Islam in Statement Purportedly From Al Qaeda Group

By Andy Mosher, Washington Post Foreign Service

BAGHDAD, July 6 -- Al Qaeda in Iraq said Wednesday that it would execute an Egyptian diplomat who was kidnapped in Baghdad four days ago, calling him a traitor to Islam and representative of a country that is "allied to Jews and Christians," according to a statement on an Internet site associated with al Qaeda.

The statement said an al Qaeda Islamic law court would hand the diplomat, Ihab Sherif, over to the group's guerrillas "to carry out the punishment of the apostate . . . and to kill him."
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Traitor?

Pot calling the kettle black.

Most Muslims I know are horrified by what these terrorists are doing and loathe the idea they are lumped in with these assholes, just like Christians are ashamed to be lumped in with abortion clinic bombers and the Oklahoma City Bombing.

I agree though... Somewhat. We need to go in and deal with this nest of vipers. But how does one tell an extremist from the innocents that have done no wrong?

[Ashock]

I turned on ESPN2 a few minutes ago hoping to see some exciting reruns of Texas hold-em or women's 9-ball, and had this sports news dropped on me instead.&nbsp; The sickening part is the feeling of inevitability... no amount of security can stop this, no amount of white flags can end it, and getting to the root of the issue seems virtually impossible.

Any bright ideas?
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/07/internat...-explosion.html

"In response to the massacre that Britain has carried out in Iraq and Afghanistan: The heroic mujahedeen has undertaken a blessed attack in London," the statement said. "Now Britain is burning with fear, dread and dismay from north, south, east and west."

It continued: "We have warned the British government and the British people again and again. We have carried out our promise and undertaken a blessed military attack in Britain after great efforts by the heroic mujahedeen over a long period of time to ensure the success of the attack."

The statement also warned "Denmark, Italy and all of the Crusader governments" that they will be attacked if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.




I think this : "Denmark, Italy and all of the Crusader governments" pretty much says it all. They are still living in the past, which is not surprising really, considering how stagnant their culture and religion is. It's a war of different civilizations. They are certainly treating it as such. Why aren't we (or at least most of us)? Europe is so mired in their pacifism and apathy, that I'm afraid it'll take many more attacks for them to wake up. US is only marginally better. Until Western civilization wakes up and smells the coffee and realizes that we are under attack as a whole, this will continue. I hope we will not sleep for too much longer.

There's a russian saying that goes something like "If you let your pig go under a table, it will soon climb on the table". We've already let them go under our table, and they are climbing up. Pig's feet can be made into nice gelatin that can then be consumed for dinner. All we need is a good chef.


-A

[jahcs]

Traitor?

Pot calling the kettle black.

Most Muslims I know are horrified by what these terrorists are doing and loathe the idea they are lumped in with these assholes, just like Christians are ashamed to be lumped in with abortion clinic bombers and the Oklahoma City Bombing.

I agree though... Somewhat. We need to go in and deal with this nest of vipers. But how does one tell an extremist from the innocents that have done no wrong?
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These Muslims, that we both know, and their leadership need to become more vocal in their castigation of this behavior. It won't do a lot of good but it's a start. If the rest of the world presents a strong united front against this sort of action and ideology maybe we can change the world in time. Too bad these subhumans only seem to understand the direct application of force on their circulatory and central nervous systems.

[jahcs]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/07/internat...-explosion.html

"In response to the massacre that Britain has carried out in Iraq and Afghanistan: The heroic mujahedeen has undertaken a blessed attack in London," the statement said. "Now Britain is burning with fear, dread and dismay from north, south, east and west."
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I, for one, am glad the British aren't like the Spanish. I don't see the British withdrawing into their shell after this. I hope they don't prove me wrong.

And good points about these extremists being stuck in the past Ashock.

[Occhidiangela]

Traitor?

Pot calling the kettle black.

Most Muslims I know are horrified by what these terrorists are doing and loathe the idea they are lumped in with these assholes, just like Christians are ashamed to be lumped in with abortion clinic bombers and the Oklahoma City Bombing.

I agree though... Somewhat. We need to go in and deal with this nest of vipers. But how does one tell an extremist from the innocents that have done no wrong?
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Doc, I think many underestimate the amount of sympathy and moral support in the "Muslim world" the hard edged players accrue. Think of all the "romantic" based support the IRA got for all those years, in Irish pubs all over the US, particularly on the East Coast. "We are passing the hat, for the band." Right.

Same holds for those who are involved in "the struggle." The Great Satan is not the United States per se, it is our open, licentious, and free culture and its impact on older, more conservative cultures that is the core cause of anger and resentment. Well, there is more than that, but ignoring that factor is a huge mistake. It makes "Us vs Them" so easy a symbol to draw.

The root causes are the West's support of the existence of Isreal; the lines on the map from Balfour; the level of CRUSADER interference and influence in The Holy Land, where Mecca and Medina are, and The Holy Land, known to some as Israel and Jordan, some as Palestine, and go from there.

The "Muslims you know?" Right, westernized Muslims living in a free society?

That is not who this passion play is performed for, that is not who morally supports this crap. Do you remember the Palestiinians dancing in the streets on 9-11? I do. That was not an isolated event.

The grass roots Muslim is not someone you know, unless you travel a great deal to and correspond with to the Arab world. The grass roots Muslim does not have to apologize to a Westerner in a civil setting, unlike your associates. Sort of like the blue hairs don't call some folks by certain epithets in public, but in private, in their hearts . . .

You probably recognize the forces in action in light of your experiences in the Civil Rights battles. The emotions are that powerful, the sense of injustice that strong. You know how compelling those forces are, what they can drive folks to risk, to do, for their cause if they feel it is just.

The rhetoric is explicitly chosen to evoke powerful cultural symbols. These are not stupid people who do this. These are Eric Hoffer's "True Believers."

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

These Muslims, that we both know, and their leadership need to become more vocal in their castigation of this behavior.&nbsp; It won't do a lot of good but it's a start.&nbsp; If the rest of the world presents a strong united front against this sort of action and ideology maybe we can change the world in time.&nbsp; Too bad these subhumans only seem to understand the direct application of force on their circulatory and central nervous systems.
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Why should they risk fatawa for a bunch of infidels? If they speak up, they will be silenced, or targeted by formal or informal means. The moral courage you seek does not exist in the Muslim world in the depth needed to overcome fear.

Occhi

[TaMeOlta]

BAGHDAD, July 6 -- Al Qaeda in Iraq said Wednesday that it would execute an Egyptian diplomat who was kidnapped in Baghdad four days ago, calling him a traitor to Islam and representative of a country that is "allied to Jews and Christians," according to a statement on an Internet site associated with al Qaeda.

The statement said an al Qaeda Islamic law court would hand the diplomat, Ihab Sherif, over to the group's guerrillas "to carry out the punishment of the apostate . . . and to kill him."

This is why I totally hate intolerant people ... I think if we exterminate all the intolerant people , the world would be a much happier , safer place .... for whomever is left . (paradox intended)


I hope everyone we know , and all their friends and families are safe and well !

[Doc]

The grass roots Muslim is not someone you know, unless you travel a great deal to and correspond with to the Arab world.&nbsp; The grass roots Muslim does not have to apologize to a Westerner in a civil setting, unlike your associates.&nbsp; Sort of like the blue hairs don't call some folks by certain epithets in public, but in private, in their hearts . . .

You probably recognize the forces in action in light of your experiences in the Civil Rights battles.&nbsp; The emotions are that powerful, the sense of injustice that strong.&nbsp; You know how compelling those forces are, what they can drive folks to risk, to do, for their cause if they feel it is just.

The rhetoric is explicitly chosen to evoke powerful cultural symbols.&nbsp; These are not stupid people who do this.&nbsp; These are Eric Hoffer's "True Believers."

Occhi
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That certainly puts it in a different light.

Some of the Muslims I know were born here. Some, some came here to escape the growing turmoil brewing in the Middle East. The madness that has swept their people.

And yes, now that you put it that way, in terms of my own past, it has me thinking. I mean, I knew about the similarities and such. But something about how you worded your post has me thinking about it now in a slightly different bent. I don't mean to make all the comparisons that I do about the Civil Rights Movement. I know that people get sick of me talking about it and comparing everything else to it. People down me all the time for comparing this and that to events in my past. People roll their eyes and start to sigh when I even begin to mention the words. But really, the Civil Rights Movement is my life and my story. It is all I know. It's all I can compare anything of any significance to. It was so all consuming that it has become my standard on how to formulate a thought to compare anything. And hearing you draw up a comparison in terms that I know all to well made a lightbulb go off.

It has made me realise just how hopeless this situation is. :unsure: It's going to get worse. The more we do to make it stop the more we build the pressure, which in turn will only give more reason to lash out. It has become a martyr factory, much like the pressure cooker that the 60's and the 70's was. (The 50's too, and earlier decades, but I was to young or did not exist at those points in time and space.

We are damned in this venture.

[jahcs]

We are damned in this venture.
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Nah, we just need the American people and the rest of the world to not think this is the kind of war that can be won in the short term, read as: the next few years. Our 3 minute attention span and fast food at the flip of a switch culture may be our worst enemy.

This struggle will require our vigilance, alertness, education, training, some inconvenience, self sacrifice (i.e. a "life isn't all about me and what I want to have happen in the next 5 minutes" attitude), preemtive action, and unpopular choices.

[Occhidiangela]

That certainly puts it in a different light.

==snip==

We are damned in this venture.
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Perhaps not. But until a clear and honest realization of what conflict it is we have to resolve, solutions or partial solutions probably won't work at all, or last. In any event, the issue is both difficult and complex.

But there will be NO easy resolution, nor any "pretty" victory, if victory is even an applicable term. The official rhetoric from Washington in the past 8 months has generally made me sick, in that the message I get is that the Ostriches are still running amok, although now and again someone makes some sense.

Occhi

[Minionman]

That was Barbosa.&nbsp; <_<&nbsp; Funny, as a pirate he gave up the ar in his name for the "AR!" in his speech!&nbsp; :D

Occhi

Somefolks do, and some folks don't, understand the nature of the conflict.&nbsp; If you don't understand the nature of the conflict, it is hard to win it or even end it on suitable terms.
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Again, what exactly does this mean?

[Occhidiangela]

Again, what exactly does this mean?
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Did you ever try to solve a murder, when the crime was armed robbery?

Occhi

[Doc]

Nah, we just need the American people and the rest of the world to not think this is the kind of war that can be won in the short term, read as: the next few years.&nbsp; Our 3 minute attention span and fast food at the flip of a switch culture may be our worst enemy.

This struggle will require our vigilance, alertness, education, training, some inconvenience, self sacrifice (i.e. a "life isn't all about me and attitude"), preemtive action, and unpopular choices.
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And if you honestly think that will actually happen you are either one of those annoying optimists or you are a fool. No offense.

I do not share your optimism for the American people as a whole. Individuals are redeemable. As a collective though, I will let history speak for it self. I have faced the collective stupidity and ignorance of the American culture. It is a crushing oppressive force. It has only grown worse since I did battle with it.

Then again, I am old, I am tired, and I have done my part. I seem to recall a point in my life where I was young and foolish. I did not think such things were impossible. I sought to change that which I couldn't even begin to understand. And now that I understand it, I fear that I have become a part of it.

That is where our hope shall lie? With the young? The ones that become involved and make change simply because they are not wise enough to realise that they can't possibly make a difference?

I don't put much hope in that either. I have seen the current generations. They need a lot of cheese to go with their whine. They want everything handed to them and they want it now... This second.

No, I don't see a lot of hope here. But I sincerely hope that I am wrong.

By all means continue in your optimism. The horses of this world need that carrot dangling in front of their nose. It keeps them working. And work is good. It shows some results.

People will argue all day if the glass is half full or half empty. I take neither side. I am beyond all that. I am one of the few that realise that it is a dirty glass that somebody left sitting out, probably with out a coaster underneath it. And if left to their own devices, those people would talk themselves to death over said dirty glass and how full or how empty it was. It is, in all reality, a glass I must pick up and wash because no one else will.

The other outside point of view on this is of course the engineer, who will realise the glass is currently twice the size that it needs to be to hold it's contents and will mobilise the means to correct it.

But I don't hold much hope for them either.

[Occhidiangela]

And if you honestly think that will actually happen you are either one of those annoying optimists or you are a fool. No offense.

I do not share your optimism for the American people as a whole. Individuals are redeemable. As a collective though, I will let history speak for it self. I have faced the collective stupidity and ignorance of the American culture. It is a crushing oppressive force. It has only grown worse since I did battle with it.

Then again, I am old, I am tired, and I have done my part. I seem to recall a point in my life where I was young and foolish. I did not think such things were impossible. I sought to change that which I couldn't even begin to understand. And now that I understand it, I fear that I have become a part of it.

That is where our hope shall lie? With the young? The ones that become involved and make change simply because they are not wise enough to realise that they can't possibly make a difference?

I don't put much hope in that either. I have seen the current generations. They need a lot of cheese to go with their whine. They want everything handed to them and they want it now... This second.

No, I don't see a lot of hope here. But I sincerely hope that I am wrong.

By all means continue in your optimism. The horses of this world need that carrot dangling in front of their nose. It keeps them working. And work is good. It shows some results.

People will argue all day if the glass is half full or half empty. I take neither side. I am beyond all that. I am one of the few that realise that it is a dirty glass that somebody left sitting out, probably with out a coaster underneath it. And if left to their own devices, those people would talk themselves to death over said dirty glass and how full or how empty it was. It is, in all reality, a glass I must pick up and wash because no one else will.

The other outside point of view on this is of course the engineer, who will realise the glass is currently twice the size that it needs to be to hold it's contents and will mobilise the means to correct it.

But I don't hold much hope for them either.
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Doc, sorry you hold so little hope. There are a lot of negative vibes in the air. People have been working very hard to undo the essence of the Civil Rights movement, which is to focus on what we have in common rather than what makes us different from one another.

That is the cultural source of division. The Me is overcoming the We. That hurts a marriage, it can't help a nation. I made a crass comment last year about American becoming the nation of the Darma Queen and the Attention Whore. (Applies to both genders, by the way, I am at least a third level attention whore myself.) Maybe the balance between the whole and the part is slightly out of whack.

Occhi

[Doc]

Doc, sorry you hold so little hope.&nbsp; There are a lot of negative vibes in the air.&nbsp; People have been working very hard to undo the essence of the Civil Rights movement, which is to focus on what we have in common rather than what makes us different from one another.

That is the cultural source of division.&nbsp; The Me is overcoming the We.&nbsp; That hurts a marriage, it can't help a nation.&nbsp; I&nbsp; made a crass comment last year about American becoming the nation of the Darma Queen and the Attention Whore. (Applies to both genders, by the way, I am at least a third level attention whore myself.)&nbsp; Maybe the balance between the whole and the part is slightly out of whack.

Occhi
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I know. My worry is, if they undo the essence of the Civil Rights movement, will I cease to exist?

Sound corny? You bet. But it crosses my mind several times a day.

Hope is mostly meaningless. It is a carrot dangled cruely in front of a beast of burdon that they will never reach. It is a lie to the self of some great reward if we could just somehow reach it. But it moves with us. Away from us. Never toward us. It's always some distant goal that we must reach.

I say do away with it.

Create your own reality as you go. Shape your own destiny. Manufacture your own future as you go. But do not illusion your self with hope. Fortify your self with truth, as bleak as it may seem, and dare to be different and do the right thing inspite of the odds, or however foolish one might seem. Dare to be David against Goliath. Stand your ground and do it on your own terms with your own two hands. But do not hope. Be courageous and charge blindly forward knowing that you shape what will become of you with your own hands... Life is what you make of it.

But do it for your own reasons under your own motivations that come from internal sources. Do not rely on outward sources of deceit.