A request for a Warlock

[Quark]

Last night's DamageMeters were quite suprising to me, so I want to see something. I want to be grouped with a Warlock in a Raid. I don't want the Warlock to use any AoE, but I do want them focusing purely on single target damage. I would like to see the results of such a raid run. It probably shouldn't be UBRS, since we actually have to play well for some of that :P


I just get the feeling that I am now outclassed in my supposed "role".

[Icebird]

I think there are too many variable factors to draw any conclusions from one raid: how the warlock is specced, what equipment they are wearing, what skills they use etc etc.

My general experience so far is that my warlock generally rates fairly low on the damage meter scale: rogues and/or mages are usually at the top. Plus Curse of Shadow tends to buff mage's damage considerably.

With enough +shadow or +spell damage gear, and either Shadow Mastery, Master Demonologist-with-Succubus or a sacrificed Succbus, warlocks can get some pretty amazing Shadowbolt crits (between 3000 and 3900 damage or so - the new BWL items might allow you to break 4000). I got a couple of 2000 damage crits last night in LBRS - but then I also got a lot 500-600 SB hits, and I was rarely getting more than 1 or 2 hits per mob except in longer fights. While I'm spending 1.5 seconds to cast CoS for better group damage, the mages and rogues are unloading with their most damaging attacks. 2.5 seconds later my SB hits.

On the other hand, warlocks are often the last class in the group to get aggro (especially if you combine Blessing of Salvation with the new MD imp buff).

Chris

[Kevin]

On the other hand, warlocks are often the last class in the group to get aggro (especially if you combine Blessing of Salvation with the new MD imp buff).
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See that is part of it too. Our warlock were drawing aggro a lot on the last 2 UBRS runs.

[Lissa]

I think there are too many variable factors to draw any conclusions from one raid: how the warlock is specced, what equipment they are wearing, what skills they use etc etc.

My general experience so far is that my warlock generally rates fairly low on the damage meter scale: rogues and/or mages are usually at the top. Plus Curse of Shadow tends to buff mage's damage considerably.

With enough +shadow or +spell damage gear, and either Shadow Mastery, Master Demonologist-with-Succubus or a sacrificed Succbus, warlocks can get some pretty amazing Shadowbolt crits (between 3000 and 3900 damage or so - the new BWL items might allow you to break 4000). I got a couple of 2000 damage crits last night in LBRS - but then I also got a lot 500-600 SB hits, and I was rarely getting more than 1 or 2 hits per mob except in longer fights. While I'm spending 1.5 seconds to cast CoS for better group damage, the mages and rogues are unloading with their most damaging attacks. 2.5 seconds later my SB hits.

On the other hand, warlocks are often the last class in the group to get aggro (especially if you combine Blessing of Salvation with the new MD imp buff).

Chris
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It's an SM/Ruin build with 5 points into Suppression, 5 into SM, and you get the idea from Destruction... ;)

I have around +100 damage (Briarwood Reed, Crimson Felt Hat, Anastari Heirloom, Dagger of the New Moon, legs from Omokk, and rest all Dreadmist). This allows me to get non-crits of around 1.1k to 1.2k with lucky CoS additions and crits into the 2k+ range (2773 last night on one hit).

I can say this, Skan has always been annoyed with me when looking at my damage output since I can typically out damage Skan in single target output. I still think Quark would win unless he wasn't getting Salvation and had to back off on occasion (Tris was throwing Wisdom on me and Arethor and not Salvation...if he had thrown Salvation, we would have taken much longer to get agro even with the crazy crits).

[Kevin]

I can say this, Skan has always been annoyed with me when looking at my damage output since I can typically out damage Skan in single target output.  I still think Quark would win unless he wasn't getting Salvation and had to back off on occasion (Tris was throwing Wisdom on me and Arethor and not Salvation...if he had thrown Salvation, we would have taken much longer to get agro even with the crazy crits).
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Yar and those crits are crazy for a lock. Both in how much they can do and how wide a range or damage they can do because of the curse interactions.

[Icebird]

That's some nice damage Lissa.

At last count I was up to +89 in spell damage gear: Briarwood Reed, some blue shoes with +18 to spell damage, Rod of the Ogre Magi, Felheart Gloves and 5% additional spell crits (Rod, Gloves, Tempest Talsiman, Eye of the Beast).

I respecced to Demonology in the last patch (30/21 now), so I could use a Succubus for the additional damage boost, but I usually use an Imp in instances.

Another factor I forgot about was the 20% shadow damage bonus after getting a crit from the Improved Shadow Bane talent. That's another factor in the massive damage range of warlocks.

Chris

[Skandranon]

I can say this, Skan has always been annoyed with me when looking at my damage output since I can typically out damage Skan in single target output.  I still think Quark would win unless he wasn't getting Salvation and had to back off on occasion (Tris was throwing Wisdom on me and Arethor and not Salvation...if he had thrown Salvation, we would have taken much longer to get agro even with the crazy crits).
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You forget to mention where you outdamage me in AoE against things that aren't fire-resistant, too.

Quite simply, anyone who doesn't understand that Warlocks need nerfs commensurate with the bug and talent tree fixes doesn't play the game.

[Quark]

I still think Quark would win unless he wasn't getting Salvation and had to back off on occasion[right][snapback]83460[/snapback][/right]

When Trispal came in, after all the AoE was said and done, I was in 3rd behind you and Arethor. Until the General's room, I wasn't gaining or losing any ground with Salvation. At the General's room I got risky to see if I could catch up, and I was just short of 2nd place before the General then. But I was playing poorly, deliberately going only for damage just to see if I could actually keep pace.

I only ended up in 2nd place, with the gap much smaller than one fight ago, because you two were perma-fearing while I was all out DPS on the General.

I believe, with a Salvation to keep you safe, Warlocks can now keep pace with Rogues on single target damage, if not beat them. Maybe not Epic-equipped Rogues, but Sommli's the only one that I've played with. So where does that leave Rogues? They don't have half the utility Warlocks have.

[Arethor]

I'd happy to test it out with you. I was also running an SM/Ruin build with around +100 damage or so (I'll check exactly how much later). I wasn't doing quite as much damage as Taha, but i did get a 2333 crit and a few low 2300 crits. Standarad hits were in the 600-800 range. A bunch of times I drew the aggro and couldn't get off another Shadowbolt because of interrupts, so Salvation would have helped me out too.

[Lissa]

You forget to mention where you outdamage me in AoE against things that aren't fire-resistant, too.

Only if I get a significant number of ticks off of Hellfire. If I have Agro, hellfire drops quickly unless the Pally has concentration aura up (rare unless the Pally knows what I'm about to do or I beat them over the head verbally for the aura). Hellfire is the most damage/mana efficient AoE in the game, but, it requires you to get every single tick of the 15 ticks to do so.

Quite simply, anyone who doesn't understand that Warlocks need nerfs commensurate with the bug and talent tree fixes doesn't play the game.
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No, what needs to be done is Blizzard needs to look at their code. The curses (Shadow and Elements) do wacky things to damage because of how resistance damage boost/reduction is dealt with by the server. If you take out the curses, the only time you might see the Warlock beat the Mage or Rogue on single target damage is with Crits. The curses is the only reason a Warlock can significantly out damage other classes when setup with an SM/Ruin build (the highest damage build available to the Warlock).

[Lissa]

When Trispal came in, after all the AoE was said and done, I was in 3rd behind you and Arethor.  Until the General's room, I wasn't gaining or losing any ground with Salvation.  At the General's room I got risky to see if I could catch up, and I was just short of 2nd place before the General then.  But I was playing poorly, deliberately going only for damage just to see if I could actually keep pace.

I only ended up in 2nd place, with the gap much smaller than one fight ago, because you two were perma-fearing while I was all out DPS on the General.

I believe, with a Salvation to keep you safe, Warlocks can now keep pace with Rogues on single target damage, if not beat them.  Maybe not Epic-equipped Rogues, but Sommli's the only one that I've played with.  So where does that leave Rogues?  They don't have half the utility Warlocks have.
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It will be interesting once I get all the items I want from the non-raid instances for Taha to see what happens. I still have several items I'm looking for to get for her and I might (maybe) be able to challege Sommli in his gear while just wearing Blues and using enchants (need 4 items from DM North, 1 or 2 for West, Boots from Rend, an extremely rare random drop from Strat trash mobs, a drop from Bal, and a number of fire and water essences to get someone to make a Belt of the Archmage for me).

[Skandranon]

No, what needs to be done is Blizzard needs to look at their code.  The curses (Shadow and Elements) do wacky things to damage because of how resistance damage boost/reduction is dealt with by the server.  If you take out the curses, the only time you might see the Warlock beat the Mage or Rogue on single target damage is with Crits.  The curses is the only reason a Warlock can significantly out damage other classes when setup with an SM/Ruin build (the highest damage build available to the Warlock).
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Call it whatever you like. Curses are streaky in small samples but provide a huge damage boost, whatever the reason, over time. That needs to be weakened, and if "look at their code" works for you better than "nerf" sure. Warlocks shouldn't be outdamaging rogues. They shouldn't even be outdamaging mages.

[Drasca]

You forget to mention where you outdamage me in AoE against things that aren't fire-resistant, too.
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AoE's more about timing unless there's a whole heck lot of it, then its about who's dying/healing to aggro. Typically, when mages get aggro, they can still output damage, but locks will get interrupted damage (Paladin Conc + WL intensity talent is a special case). Death also interrupts damage for both. When not dying, even a level 56 mage can out-aoe me.

Hellfire is the most damage/mana efficient AoE in the game

Only if you don't consider health part of your mana. Without healer support it isn't, but with healer support you essentially have infinite mana. That mana efficiency figure is skewed.

Quite simply, anyone who doesn't understand that Warlocks need nerfs commensurate with the bug and talent tree fixes doesn't play the game.

Heh, you don't see the conditions required to allow locks to do great damage.

0) the knowledge and skill to use the lock for damage
1) A lot of +dmg gear
2) A lot of talent investment
3) A lot of raid support, tanks, stunners, aggro from other players, healers
4) A lot of debuffs, CoShadows, shadow vulnerability etc etc
5) Our damage is backloaded. Curse of Doom takes a full minute to proc, 50% of Curse of Agony's damage is in the last 10 seconds of 30, and all the high shadowbolt damage requires application of CoS, and crits debuffs enhancing further damage.

So basically, locks can do serious damage but only in a niche situation--long battles when debuffs aren't rotated and we have full raid support. We have serious limiters to our damage outside those conditions as you do. I'm sure you can't backstab more than once in a 1v1 pve situation. Locks can and will get interrupted when melee'ed, drastically lowering their dps. Try to compare growing up with a warlock alt vs rogue grind growth, if you will. My rogue alt has leaps and bounds in damage over my baby mage and growing up with my lock -- so long as the rogue alt was equipped appropriate to his level. Maybe its time for a 60+ equipment upgrade.

Maybe not Epic-equipped Rogues, but Sommli's the only one that I've played with. So where does that leave Rogues?

Your problem is that you don't have access to easy methods to increase damage. So much of your damage is tied to your weapons, and upgrades aren't easily obtained while casters get small and easier to individually obtain cumultive +dmg item bonuses.

Honestly, my guildmates do much better damage than I do in the same raid. Those rogues are both skilled and well equipped. You might just need an item upgrade. Quite simply, my car's easier to upgrade than yours.

There's another niche to lock damage. Lock damage is best when enemy health is > 10k when shadow vulnerability can take place. When enemies have health below that, we simply won't get the nuke casting times in.

Personally, I've got over +300 damage in equip, and am getting over 2.5k crits non-ruin. If I had a bit more +shadow damage, and just the right debuffs and crit, I'd imagine it'd go over 4k with ruin. Some locks have done 4.5k SB crit. My regular SB's are 700-900 w/o CoS, and varies with CoS / Shadow vulnerability. Can be 1200 non-crit with those two.

I want to up this to 400-500. Yes, double base top rank shadowbolt damage. I can pull aggro with unlucky crits in MC already, but some day I might just go insane.

Warlocks shouldn't be outdamaging rogues. They shouldn't even be outdamaging mages.

You're just jealous. In my guild damage meter comparisons, the mages/locks/rogues/hunters all shined vs different bosses, trash mobs, and groups of single target enemies. All the players being pretty darn well equipped, the relative class damage difference was actually pretty slim.

The rogues did insane damage. The mages did insane damage. Our mages benefit from CoEl just as locks benefit from CoS, and sometimes more since I make sure CoEl is constantly refreshed while the other locks can be lax on CoS. The locks and hunters did insane damage. Our MT & offtank warriors did and received insane damage.

My own comparisons against a pickup raid were skewed because my equipment was simply superior to most of the raid's. When paired with dps classes with equivalent equipment, the damage gaps closed.

However, I want to leave with the note that none of the damage you do matters if the mob is NOT DEAD. No individual contribution of damage matters if you're all too dead to collect and the enemy's still alive. Eschew damage completely if it means you'll survive the encounter. I did 50k damage to onyxia in one encounter... did it matter? Not at all. She wasn't dead. Did any of the other damage matter? Nope. She wasn't dead, and we were. Never ever let dps-monkeying take predence over defeating the encounter as a whole.

That is why I personally will not be taking ruin as a talent. With my equipment this talent pulls too much burst aggro and jeopardizes raid encounters. DPS-monkeying is not worth risking everyone's extended time and effort.

[Quark]

Your problem is that you don't have access to easy methods to increase damage. So much of your damage is tied to your weapons, and upgrades aren't easily obtained while casters get small and easier to individually obtain cumultive +dmg item bonuses.

Not really. When I got my Keris of Zul'Serrak, my damage increase was phenomenal, but it didn't stop there. Since then, I have put serious time into getting items that sacrificed my survivability (+sta and +dodge) to give me attack power and crit chance. They don't individually have the benefit that one +damage item does, but they add up. And I've gotten all this gear while I was almost always at the top of the DPS charts.

Honestly, my guildmates do much better damage than I do in the same raid. Those rogues are both skilled and well equipped. You might just need an item upgrade. Quite simply, my car's easier to upgrade than yours.

From where? We're all decked out in the non-MC/Onyxia blues. There's very little I can do to upgrade my damage anymore without getting Epics, and guess what: not everybody can do that. I still am missing Shadowcraft, but most of the equipment slots I would actually lose attack power by putting it on. How about weapons? There's a total of 4 non-MC/onxyia daggers better than mine. The reward for Alterac's BG faction - never happen on my server. The reward for massive PvPing - ugh. The Barman Shanker - ugly, still has a bad proc, and not actually that much better. Finally, there's Specter's Blade. Great, so all I need to do is follow a paladin on his quest - or ask a paladin who's already done it to summon him. It's a goal, but it's not easy. And it really won't increase my damage that much, I want it to be unique and to get rid of my proc.

There's another niche to lock damage. Lock damage is best when enemy health is > 10k when shadow vulnerability can take place. When enemies have health below that, we simply won't get the nuke casting times in.

Seems to work pretty damn well in UBRS.

Personally, I've got over +300 damage in equip, and am getting over 2.5k crits non-ruin. If I had a bit more +shadow damage, and just the right debuffs and crit, I'd imagine it'd go over 4k with ruin. Some locks have done 4.5k SB crit. My regular SB's are 700-900 w/o CoS, and varies with CoS / Shadow vulnerability.  Can be 1200 non-crit with those two.

My Ambush is 900-1500 crit based on mob AC. But it's only used once a battle, and it was decided to be too powerful to be combined with the Lethality talent. :wacko:

You're just jealous.

The stealthy Rogue is an up-close damage dealer. Like the Mage, they can rip through mobs quickly and brutally using their wide range of combination moves.

Don't see that description much for Warlocks.

In my guild damage meter comparisons, the mages/locks/rogues/hunters all shined vs different bosses, trash mobs, and groups of single target enemies. All the players being pretty darn well equipped, the relative class damage difference was actually pretty slim.

We're all equally equipped (Oh No! We're not epic! We must suck!) and the difference was never rediculous, but Rogues were the top. A respec, a patch, and a hotfix (resistance) have skyrocketed Warlocks to the top.

My own comparisons against a pickup raid were skewed because my equipment was simply superior to most of the raid's. When paired with dps classes with equivalent equipment, the damage gaps closed.

You must be kidding yourself if Lissa is ready to compare himself to Sommli. You know, Tahapenes in all blue gear while Sommli has half epics.

However, I want to leave with the note that none of the damage you do matters if the mob is NOT DEAD. No individual contribution of damage matters if you're all too dead to collect and the enemy's still alive. Eschew damage completely if it means you'll survive the encounter. I did 50k damage to onyxia in one encounter... did it matter? Not at all. She wasn't dead. Did any of the other damage matter? Nope. She wasn't dead, and we were. Never ever let dps-monkeying take predence over defeating the encounter as a whole.

Seems to me, the more damage you deal, the more likely a target is dead. You're using this as a copout, and it doesn't work simply because the Warlocks and Rogues were doing nothing wrong on the run that was my first comparison. The 'locks pulling aggro could have been simply fixed by giving them Salvation like I was given.

That is why I personally will not be taking ruin as a talent.  With my equipment this talent pulls too much burst aggro and jeopardizes raid encounters. DPS-monkeying is not worth risking everyone's extended time and effort.
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You could do what Mages have been forced to do since level 1 grouped - be smart about casting and ramp up damage as allowed. Don't ever blame a talent for gaining aggro - you could have simply waited another second to cast the spell, just like I wait on bosses to pull out the Backstab/Eviscerate until I'm Feinted recently.

Of course, all this is academic until I see more comparisons between our like-equipped players. This was only one comparison, and though I believe it to be true, it'd be stupid to make it gospel. Hence the request, we just haven't had time yet.

[Drasca]

A respec, a patch, and a hotfix (resistance) have skyrocketed Warlocks to the top.
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You sure its just the hotfix? Warlocks have been getting obscene crits since before such fixes and patches. SM/Ruin has been a cookie cutter platform from which +mag dmg have greatly benefitted from, showing off displaying ever higher crits and base damage.

Are you sure its not simply the fact your locks have discovered and begun acquiring +dmg equip and the path to destructive power?

I'll restate its easier to direclty improve to PvE spell damage. You said yourself you can only aqcuire 4 weapons better than your current, and that's what I expected. However its fairly easy to acquire a multitude of +spell damage items one by one, which directly improves caster damage.

You must be kidding yourself if Lissa is ready to compare himself to Sommli. You know, Tahapenes in all blue gear while Sommli has half epics.

I am not familiar with your Stormrage characters, so no real comment on your individual rogues/locks. However, epic set items for warlocks do not necessarily greatly increase lock damage. There are certain individual purple pieces which are fantastic. Some green/blue items improve caster damage far more than purple, while sacrificing in stats a bit. Take shyshroud leggings for example, its about +34 magical damage, which transltes to about +30 damage to a shadow bolt. Relative increase to base shadowbolt of 400-450 damage... 8% increase to damage per bolt. Meanwhile some of the pve epic items only add +7-9 damage vs greens or blues that may add 20-30 each. So in terms of adding damage, greens and blues can be far superior to epic. You don't need purple items to get a lot of +damage increase.

You could do what Mages have been forced to do since level 1 grouped - be smart about casting and ramp up damage as allowed.

I won't be doing sustained dps if I must hold back due to hate concerns. With ruin, I'd be jumping past the hate curve by leaps and bounds then I won't be contributing steady dps, and lowering my overall damage contribution if I must wait for hate to build again. I do my best sustained damage if I stay behind the hate curve, and crits just skyrocket me ahead in hate already as it is. I keep behind the hate curve without Ruin.

Still, I need to learn how well MD / Ruin works with an imp. Its unimproved damage, and 20% less threat. However, given I've pulled aggro with MD imp and no ruin... I don't have much faith with ruin.

Of course, all this is academic until I see more comparisons between our like-equipped players.  This was only one comparison, and though I believe it to be true, it'd be stupid to make it gospel.  Hence the request, we just haven't had time yet.

Just don't get your pants twisted if you find out greens and blues contribute more to damage than purples do. Personally, I've made a fine tuned collection of +dmg items for when I want to output as much steady damage as I can and in the time available--and some greens to do that in place of blues or even purple items.

Don't get upset at UBRS raid damage either, honestly 15 players make mincemeat against a 15k health enemy. Just 5 players contributing just 1-2k damage each over the course of 5 seconds (not unreasonable) means the mob is 1/3 to 2/3 dead. Locks won't do too shabby, but they aren't unlocking their potential either. Face an enemy with 70k-100k health, and you begin to see locks getting big crits off each other's shadow vulnerability and mages benefitting from the CoEl debuff. Locks might not even have time to put on CoS when the enemy mob dies in 10 seconds or less. 5 or less, almost definitely not.

[Drasca]

I don't want the Warlock to use any AoE, but I do want them focusing purely on single target damage.  I would like to see the results of such a raid run. [right][snapback]83430[/snapback][/right]

How do you want to accomplish this? I usually watch rogues, mages, hunters and locks fully unload on MC giants, fire lords, and lava surgers/elementals with full sunder/coel/cos debuffs on there. The damage is obscene, and every top dps'er has hundreds of thousands of damage under their belt soon enough.

[Lissa]

Call it whatever you like.  Curses are streaky in small samples but provide a huge damage boost, whatever the reason, over time.  That needs to be weakened, and if "look at their code" works for you better than "nerf" sure.  Warlocks shouldn't be outdamaging rogues.  They shouldn't even be outdamaging mages.
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It wouldn't be a Nerf Skan and you know it. Nerfing effects one skill/item specifically. Changing around the code on how resistance works, both negative and positive, will effect the entire game from players to mobs. This is not a nerfed by the definition of what nerf means in MMORPGs (specifically targetting single classes, skills, and/or items).

And lets face it, don't tell me you don't benefit from the curses with your mage when you use the right spells with them too. Those curses benefit mages, priest, hunters using arcane shot, pallys using the exorcise and the like, and shamans using their various shocks, not just warlocks.

[Skandranon]

You're just jealous.

And why shouldn't I be? My main class is so far underpowered compared to your main class. If both classes are played to perfection and are similarly equipped, warlocks do more damage and have more uses...how is that you can't admit this?

The rogues did insane damage. The mages did insane damage. Our mages benefit from CoEl just as locks benefit from CoS, and sometimes more since I make sure CoEl is constantly refreshed while the other locks can be lax on CoS. The locks and hunters did insane damage. Our MT & offtank warriors did and received insane damage.

So your argument is that there are no DPS classes whatsoever.

...okay then.

[Skandranon]

It wouldn't be a Nerf Skan and you know it.  Nerfing effects one skill/item specifically.  Changing around the code on how resistance works, both negative and positive, will effect the entire game from players to mobs.  This is not a nerfed by the definition of what nerf means in MMORPGs (specifically targetting single classes, skills, and/or items).

Okay. And what other class specifically can cast resistance lowering debuffs that increase the damage of their own spells?

And lets face it, don't tell me you don't benefit from the curses with your mage when you use the right spells with them too.  Those curses benefit mages, priest, hunters using arcane shot, pallys using the exorcise and the like, and shamans using their various shocks, not just warlocks.
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Yes, yes I do. Glad that CoE is reducing those fire immune mobs' fire resistances.

Actually, the reason I want to see this test is because I strongly suspect that even with curses factored out, nightfall and shadow vulnerability will result in warlocks outdamaging mages anyway.

[Lissa]

Okay.  And what other class specifically can cast resistance lowering debuffs that increase the damage of their own spells?

And how easy is it for said debuff to be knocked off and needs to be reapplied? Again, if you take out the curses, you'll see that Warlocks can't outdamage a Mage for one simple reason, all but 5 of our damage spells (3 come from talents, 2 naturally) are not instant cast. How many instant cast spells does a Mage have? In short order, a Mage can turn out more damage than a Warlock in a short amount of time (of those 5 instant cast spells Warlocks have, 3 are DoTs and 1 of the instant cast DDs is on a 10 minute timer).

Yes, yes I do.  Glad that CoE is reducing those fire immune mobs' fire resistances.

And how many times have I mentioned how Warlock unfriendly the whole Rahk'likh line is? And those Fire Immunes are also immune to some of my spells. If i had stuck with my prior build instead of switching to SM/Ruin, I would be in the same boat with my main damage spells (Immo-Conflag combo). You atleast have 3 different damage types to play with and it is more Blizzard's fault than anyone elses that they seem to think that everything should be fire immune at the high end.

Actually, the reason I want to see this test is because I strongly suspect that even with curses factored out, nightfall and shadow vulnerability will result in warlocks outdamaging mages anyway.
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I think any Warlock that has played with Nightfall will agree that it's even worse on streakiness than the Curses. More often than not, I end up getting the Nightfall proc at the very end just as the mob is about to die or has just died.

Shadow vulnerability is the same across any class that has this kind of power. Priests have it in their shadow tree (possibly something in holy too, but I don't remember there being anything like this), and Mages have similar things as well, atleast something in Arcane and Cold.

Likewise, if we were to sit down and have me, you, and Quark all attack the same kind of mob, go all out as best we could with everyone starting at the same point, I guarentee that Quark would win on who would kill the mob the quickest, you would very likely come in second because you have a very reliable way of gaining distance from the mob along with a number of useful instant cast spells, and I would likely come in third because I could not reliably get the mob out of my face and would be getting interrupted constantly and most of my instants are DoTs.