Stormrage: Assault on Orgrimmar

[Garrin]

I don't know about the rest of you, but when i started playing WoW back in march, I immediately came up with a goal for myself. Something that I had to do some day in order to feel i've accomplished something in the game. That goal? To kill the opposing forces leaders.

Keep in mind that this is mearly a planning stage right now, and I don't want to initiate the attack until I've reached 60 with Garrin, but I'd like to at least get something together that we can toil over and get some input on.

First on the chopping block: Thrall

The raid looks to be pretty straight forward in movement. Move from Ashenvale to The Barrens to Durotar to Orgrimmar to the valley of honor. Though I would like to skip going through Razor Hill because we're not there to grief, we have a goal in mind, we need to stick to it. Though if any NPC's get in our way of that goal, they will be dealt with accordingly. We can easily go around by cutting off the road northeast when we get into Durotar straight to Orgrimmar's front gate.

I've brought the topic up in game and got some feedback to the issue. I'm still not sure how many people it would take exactally, I figure that a full raid group if well organized could possibly break through and take him down.

Defense from the actual horde players will most likely be heavy in The Valley of Strength. After we've pushed through this though which will be the main bulk of the pvp I don't see a successful counter attack bein raised. We would have to have people constantly dealing with harrassers and watching for counterattacks while the rest pushed through to Thrall. This would mean a group playing as rear guard to hold back any push by the enemy to stop us.

I know pvp isn't everyones cup of tea, and there aren't many who have all that much experience with it. But PVP isn't our main goal in this. Any defense wouldn't be well organised (at least at first) and would fall under a well organised main effort.

Ok well I think i've got my idea across in a very long winded way. This wouldn't be a purely lurker affair (as much as i'd like to be able to say we did it alone) because we just can't muster the bodies right now. We'd have to call in for reenforcements from CA and The Basin of course, and we've got plenty of time to start sowing the seeds for their participation.

So who's with me? Who's got any ideas? And more importantly, who's been part of something similar?

[chippydip]

I, too, would like to do this at some point, but things like Onyxia and Ragnaros are higher on my list or priorites (not to mention actually leveling a char to 60 in the first place ;-)) I'll go ahead and throw in my $0.02 anyway.

If the goal is to kill all the opposing faction leaders I think it would be better to start with the easier ones and work up to Thrall. Since the AH is in Orgrimmar, it is usually just as crowded as IF. From my PvP experience (Southshore/Taurn Mill before BG, some WG and watching a lot of WG and a little AV and just dueling in general) superior numbers can overwhelm just about any well-organized group. Organization can certainly make up for some difference in numbers, but after a point there's just nothing more tactics can do for you. So, to run through the middle of Ogrimmar successfully, I think you'd have to round up pretty much everyone in IF for that raid.

So, I suspect your plan could work by simply progressing as far as possible toward Thrall, dieing, running back from Razor Hill, rezzing, and then repeating until you are in the throne room. I doubt most people would have the patience to see this through, though, and the Horde would likely have a decent group organized to aid Thrall by the time we managed to attack him. You would probably have to get everyone to rez in the throne room at the same time and try and take down Thrall before his bodyguards and the other Horde players wiped out the raid group again.

If you want to move the raid group in together like that, it would probably be significantly easier to enter from the western bridge directly from the Barrens. You then have a longer, but much less populated path to Thrall. Another idea that came up in guild chat was to sneak in a small group near the throne room and then summon in the rest of the raid. The biggest problem I see with this idea is the time it would take to summon in the entire raid group. If you can find a quiet place to do this it should be easy, but I don't remember such a place near Thrall, so some of the group would have to defend the summoners and you'd probably need a good number of warlocks to be able to summon in the entire raid before too many Hordies figured out what was going on.

As for the faction leaders in the other major cities: Thunderbluff would probably be the easiest to tackle with a normal raid attack. There are very few people there usualy and they are mostly low level anyway. It still might be easier to sneak a couple people in and summon the rest of the group, though. I suspect the group could hide out behind one of the tents near the edge of Elder's Rise and summon with impunity. I think Undercity would be of similar difficulty to TB. A frontal attack down the elevators would probably be suicide, but I can see running in through the sewers working. There are only a couple guards that way and rarely any PCs (except the ones flying past on bats, but there's not a lot they can do from the air). Even easier would be the summoning tactic if you could sneak a warlock and friends into the hallway leading to the throne room. I don't recall there being any guards in that hallway and people only venture there for a couple of quests. You could probably take your time with the summoning and then kill the bosses without much Horde intervention at all.

So, I'd say start with TB and/or Undercity and then take Thrall on last... right after the Lurkers take down Ragnaros ;-)

[Concillian]

My suggestion? If you're going to try this, I'd do Cairne Bloodhoof first:

1) Members of the opposing faction will be virtually unaware of what is happening until you've engaged Cairne already (assuming you use the rear elevator for entry, which is quite near Cairne. You'd only have to go through a few guards to get to Cairne.

2) Once you egage Cairne you will have a relatively long lag time for opposing faction PvP'ers to get there, plus added inertia for not going, as the flight from Org to TB is not LONG, but it's definitely not short either.

3) because the opposite faction people won't necessarily be massed, you should have significantly better success at holding them off, they are more likely to trickle in one at a time, so you may need to dedicate fewer people for 'opposition duty' for the PC defenders that will show up.

4) The graveyard in Mulgore is WAY closer than Razor Hill is in Durotar.

Orgrimmar is going to be a pain because Thrall is DEEP inside and you are sure to be spotted even if you use the back entrace. Once you are spotted, there are often AT LEAST a dozen or two 60s just hanging out in the middle of the city who would be happy to assist Thrall in eradicating you and they are less than a minute away, hanging out by the bank and AH.

With the help of the guards and the extreme distance at which you would have to res compared with the horde (the latest patch have horde ressing verny near to their body, easily less than a minute away, instead of how they used to have to run from Razor Hill), even a small defensive force of horde should have a pretty easy time causing significant disruption to your raid.

I would be surprised if Thrall could be done with less than 2 full raid groups (1 for dealing with opposition from PCs and 1 for engaging Thrall himself) especially if you're a pickup caliber group. I think Cairne would be better to start with an practice for the extra challenges that a Thrall kill will present.

If you do want to do Trall, I would highly suggest going through the rear entrance near the corner of Ashenvale, Azshara, and Barrens so as to create lesser disturbance. going straight through the middle of town would be like if you had to go into IF, then crossover the Bank / AH mass in between and go through the tunnel on the opposite side to get to the great forge room. No raid group could get through that, especially with the opposition seconds from their corpses while you have a several minute run.

[Drasca]

My suggestion?  If you're going to try this, I'd do Cairne Bloodhoof first:
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Watch out for his AoE stun that takes out entire raids.

[chippydip]

If you do want to do Trall, I would highly suggest going through the rear entrance near the corner of Ashenvale, Azshara, and Barrens so as to create lesser disturbance.  going straight through the middle of town would be like if you had to go into IF, then crossover the Bank / AH mass in between and go through the tunnel on the opposite side to get to the great forge room. No raid group could get through that, especially with the opposition seconds from their corpses while you have a several minute run.
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I watched a horde raid of IF once. It was quite amusing... lots of dieing. At once point, the horde decided to all rez in the AH at the same time and unleash as much AoE as they could before they were slaughtered again. And, of course, slaughtered they were, but not before taking down quite a few aliance :)

[bernard shakey]

I think this is about the most fun you can have in this game. I'll be far to underleveled to be a part of the main raiding parties, but i'll be there anyways on the sidelines throwing a heal or buff at someone with my druid in between corps runs. cant wait

[Garrin]

Ok So TB sounds like it'll be the first target ^_^.

Now it's a matter of getting to 60, while trying to rally support and bodies for the raid parties.

Start pullin those strings, and callin in those "favors" people owe.

I for one think an assault on TB will be muchly enjoyed by everyone.

Oh one new idea to come down the pipeline:

What happens if we kill the gryphon master? They can still fly there i'm sure, but they can't fly out can they? What if we staged a raid on XR to draw out horde resistance first, and killed the gryphon master there so they couldn't fly to the main assault on TB? Griefing or viable strategy? On a PVP server (by blizzards way of thinking, or at least the strategy guides) it wouldn't be griefing because everything is always up for attack. it's the way of life. but on a PVE what's the verdict?

[Skandranon]

What if we staged a raid on XR to draw out horde resistance first, and killed the gryphon master there so they couldn't fly to the main assault on TB? 
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The wind rider master in XR would respawn before your XR group managed to make it to TB, even if everyone was epic-mounted.

As for the rest of your plan, it's like Douglas Haig's "preliminary plan" before the Somme.

[Garrin]

Well that plan would call for a second diversion group, who would attack on cue when the main effort was in place. And the main effort wouldn't begin their attack until the griffon master was killed.

You seem ultra-critical of any plan that doesn't fit the cookie cutter mold of how to do things in WoW, at least in this respect. I'm not saying critisism is bad, I'd just much rather have a healthy view on how the Idea COULD work, instead of how terribly it will fail.

How do you think it COULD work? Two full raid groups on TB? Does the diversionary attack on XR make tactical sense? Any input is greatly appreciated.

[Ruvanal]

Does the diversionary attack on XR make tactical sense?  Any input is greatly appreciated.
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A diversionary attack on XR would require much effort to take out the wyvern master for a meaningful amount of time. That amount of effort would be better spent on the actual assult at Thunder Bluff. Many player you would need to recruit, would not want to be the ones assigned to the diversionary force either (care to lead that yourself? or do you want to be there for the fight with the racial leader?). Another factor is that taking out the Flight master is not going to make a serious dent in moving some players since mages can open portals to the main cities to help funnel assistance to there from almost anywhere in the world.

[Garrin]

mages can open portals to the main cities to help funnel assistance to there from almost anywhere in the world.
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really good point, didn't think to take that into account. ( a friend at work gave me the idea ^_^; )

while the diversion isn't entirely out of the picture this early in the planning stages, it does make it less likely it will be in the final plan. the man power could be much more helpful in TB itself.

Does anyone happen to know how many of the NPC's up there are labelled civilian? I'd much rather not grief the place by killing the vendors up there if we can help it. Just a slight consideration we should take into account.

[Ruvanal]

Does anyone happen to know how many of the NPC's up there are labelled civilian?  I'd much rather not grief the place by killing the vendors up there if we can help it.  Just a slight consideration we should take into account.
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Go make a horde character or three on Terenas and start scouting out the areas.

[Skandranon]

You seem ultra-critical of any plan that doesn't fit the cookie cutter mold of how to do things in WoW, at least in this respect.  I'm not saying critisism is bad, I'd just much rather have a healthy view on how the Idea COULD work, instead of how terribly it will fail. 
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It's not a matter of cookie-cutter molds. The fact is, WoW is built in such a way that some plans will succeed while others can't even if everything goes right. Your plan isn't special either - it's been tried before and ridden down in flames every time. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake - and snowflakes don't kill faction leaders, anyway. Unfortunately, in WoW, plans don't succeed just because they're different.

The problem with your plan is that you're planning a battle. If there's a battle, you'll lose. Killing a faction leader is an assassination. Plan like it.

[kandrathe]

It's not a matter of cookie-cutter molds.  The fact is, WoW is built in such a way that some plans will succeed while others can't even if everything goes right.  Your plan isn't special either - it's been tried before and ridden down in flames every time.  You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake - and snowflakes don't kill faction leaders, anyway.  Unfortunately, in WoW, plans don't succeed just because they're different.

The problem with your plan is that you're planning a battle.  If there's a battle, you'll lose.  Killing a faction leader is an assassination.  Plan like it.
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I agree. This needs to be a stealth operation if it would succeed. It might even require the initial 2 (rogue/druid)+Warlock to go well in advance to logout in the leaders chamber so to defuse any speculation as to when the raid might occur. Then you need an assassination squad to focus on dispatching the leader, while a defense squad protects the assassination squad from interlopers, or additional npc guards.

[Garrin]

  You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake
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good quote.

Good point as well. I see where you're coming from.

I would still love to go through with an attack on TB.

maybe we could use the main battle as a destraction to the assassination attempt going on inside...thoughts?

[Skandranon]

maybe we could use the main battle as a destraction to the assassination attempt going on inside...thoughts?
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You're still too attached to this concept of a "main battle". Until you abandon it, you will not formulate a workable plan. You seem to have two objectives: 1) to get some PvP 2) to kill a faction leader. These objectives are mutually exclusive.

Having a "main battle" anywhere in the world at the same time you're attacking the faction leader is negative to your efforts simply because it creates a pool of Horde defenders who deliberately went PvP to respond to your attacks, and are therefore ready to respond to any other attacks. A quick Portal: TB and they're all over your raid party. Wipe. You want most of the Horde in instances or in battlegrounds or doing anything but being in a raid group, ready to take a portal and move as a unit to defend.

Having a "main battle" in the actual city you're attacking is even worse because it damages your efforts in two ways. Firstly, it stresses out the zone server even worse, afflicting your assassination team and everyone in the zone with extreme levels of lag. When everyone's lagging, the faction leader becomes even harder to kill, because it's a mob and isn't affected by lag. Secondly, it alerts the Horde to the fact that something is happening in Thunder Bluff, and anyone with two brain cells to rub together will think to check on Cairne just in case. You don't want Horde there.

If you want to kill a faction leader, you want as little PvP as possible. Get in, kill the leader, and get out before anyone realizes that you were there. That's the only thing that does work; the only thing, given the rules of the game, that can work.

[Concillian]

Yes, a 'ninja raid' on the faction leader so to speak.

I think you need two plans:
1) How to go about killing the leader (especially tanking strategy given what is known about Cairne)
2) what to do in case you do suddenly get a ton of PvP people. The XR flightmaster doesn't matter, because you can fly directly from Org to TB, and most of the high levels will be in Org.

Your main focus should be on taking down the faction leader as quickly as possible after triggering 'WorldDefense' and people in TB start telling guildies in Org that there is an attack on a faction leader. When people in Org start saying that Cairne is under serious attack, you will have ~5 minutes before an inevitable stream of PvP attackers from the windrider. So you want to plan your invasion into the city to alert as few guards as possible before Cairne, then take him down as quickly as possible.

You might even consider using the rear elevators and getting to Cairne's 'tier' by using the bridges to Elder Rise rather than the central ramp in order to use a path less traveled so fewer horde with high level friends see you. Few high level horde will be there, the place is like Darnassus, nobody goes there much unless they HAVE to. But there will surely be people there with alts who have friends in high places.

It is not an easy task, and is not something that is just a zerg, which is why I think the negativity is in the air. Thay're more words of caution due to the difficulty than pure negativity.