Fire, frost?

[Bob the Beholder]

So, I have a 59 mage (will be 60 within an hour of playing, soon as I can buy a game card). For all of this mage's career, he has been a fire/arcane mage. Because being able to tear an enemy player down to 20 percent life in under five seconds makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Note that this is one clue that my biggest concern is PvP.

But, I have been considering the usefulness of a frost build. Because Ice Block is just that good. Barring your average "I'm gonna run into that group of enemies and start AoEing" levels of kamikazeism, in solo and small group PvP, the majority of the deaths I have suffered could've been avoided through use of Ice Block. And everybody knows a living mage is a little bit more dangerous than a dead mage. That and the frost nova and frostbolt/cone of cold combo with the shatter and ice shards talents just makes me a happy panda (maybe not quite as much as a fireball, fireblast, PoM-pyroblast combo with ignite and impact).

So, I am asking for opinions, as I imagine that there are more experienced mages around. (Maybe not in PvP. Freaking carebears. :) <-- means I'm joking)

For reference, here is my current build:

Fire Mastery

Improved Fireball Rank 5
Impact Rank 5
Ignite Rank 5
Flame Throwing Rank 2
Pyroblast Rank 1
Improved Flamestrike Rank 3
Critical Mass Rank 3
Blast Wave Rank 1
Fire Power Rank 5
Fire Total: 30

Arcane Mastery

Improved Arcane Missiles Rank 5
Arcane Concentration Rank 5
Improved Arcane Explosion Rank 5
Evocation Rank 1
Improved Mana Shield Rank 2
Improved Counterspell Rank 2
Presence of Mind Rank 1
Arcane Total: 21

Total

Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

And a couple of builds that I am mulling over:


Frost Mastery

Improved Frostbolt Rank 5
Ice Shards Rank 5
Improved Frost Nova Rank 2
Cold Snap Rank 1
Improved Blizzard Rank 3
Arctic Reach Rank 2
Frost Channeling Rank 3
Shatter Rank 5
Ice Block Rank 1
Improved Cone of Cold Rank 2
Frostbite Rank 1
Frost Total: 30

Arcane Mastery

Improved Arcane Missiles Rank 5
Arcane Concentration Rank 5
Improved Arcane Explosion Rank 5
Evocation Rank 1
Improved Mana Shield Rank 2
Improved Counterspell Rank 2
Presence of Mind Rank 1
Arcane Total: 21

Total

Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

And:

Frost Mastery

Improved Frostbolt Rank 5
Ice Shards Rank 5
Improved Frost Nova Rank 2
Cold Snap Rank 1
Improved Blizzard Rank 2
Arctic Reach Rank 2
Shatter Rank 5
Ice Block Rank 1
Frost Total: 23

Arcane Mastery

Improved Arcane Missiles Rank 5
Arcane Concentration Rank 5
Improved Arcane Explosion Rank 5
Evocation Rank 1
Improved Mana Shield Rank 2
Improved Counterspell Rank 2
Presence of Mind Rank 1
Arcane Mind Rank 4
Arcane Instability Rank 3
Arcane Total: 28

Total

Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60


As for the first one, I am not sure if I should keep Frost Channeling. The lower cost is useful, but I certainly won't be using ONLY ice spells, and I could use those points to finish off Improved Cone of Cold, or improve my Frostbite chance. The third point in Improved Blizzard is a bit iffy as well. Overall, though, it seems a decent build. Heavy on snares, bumping both the crits and survivability quite a bit. But, I tried an incomplete version of this back in my fourties, and while the crits were nice, the lack of Critical Mass made them much, much more rare, even with Shatter. More Frostbite may increase that, as well as finally backhanding some people into bringing me along on some DM Tribute runs, for the nice spell crit increases. And without the fairly consistent crits I had gotten used to, it was a bit of a stretch getting used to it. In the beta version of this build, however, I lacked Presence of the Mind, which will add much damage, and I wasn't particularly adept at abusing Ice Block. So my feelings may change on another try.

The second one seems nice, as I've gone far enough into arcane with it to increase global crit chance, which, as I said, was a factor in my last respec. But that leaves out a few of the less necessary, but still desirable, talents in the frost tree, just to make up for a weakness in a tree that I'm suddenly not focusing on.

Thoughts, opinions, flames, death threats?

[Brista]

As I understand it, there's no one mage build that beats all classes

Arcane/Fire gives you enough burst to kill healers

Arcane/Cold gives you control to kill warriors rogues and hunters more easily

As for the issue of not dying I don't really see the advantage. Paladins are great at not dying - so what? For pvp you want to be good at killing and losing out on killing for safety is a mistake imo. If you look at mages and rogues being very dominant in the recent list of top pvpers it's because of their offence

I can see that in a big zerg you can move into a massed group of enemies, aoe until they focus on you, iceblock to get them to stop focussing then aoe again. So it's like 2 goes at aoe-ing. If your main killing tactic is aoe-ing packed enemies then iceblock probably beats anything in fire

My mage is on hold now and I'm working on my priest. My view is that a similarly levelled mage is no threat unless they have silence and very high damage, or unless I'm fighting other people when they join in. 31 Arcane 20 Fire is probably the build most likely to kill me

[MongoJerry]

I can see that in a big zerg you can move into a massed group of enemies, aoe until they focus on you, iceblock to get them to stop focussing then aoe again. So it's like 2 goes at aoe-ing. If your main killing tactic is aoe-ing packed enemies then iceblock probably beats anything in fire

Iceblock is also (annoyingly) good for removing dots on a mage. You can step forward to use a ranged aoe attack and then when you get hit by 5+ dots, step/blink back and iceblock out of all of it. A quick jump in and out of iceblock can also cure a lot of crowd control spells/skills used on you. Plus, if you're dying, you can iceblock and frequently find your opponents switch targets so that you can switch out of iceblock and blink away to safety. And if that doesn't work, you can cold snap and iceblock again. Plus, you can be healed while in iceblock.

Most of the mages in the Offenders are switching to ice builds for three reasons:
1. A lot of them like to play CTF, where crowd control is critically important.
2. They like the survivability and disruptiveness that ice builds provide.
3. They do a lot of Molten Core and Onyxia, where mobs tend to have a lot of fire resistance and are more vulnerable to cold attacks.
4. Players also tend to have more fire resist gear than cold resist gear, so the seemingly increased damage that fire mages can deal is partially (but not totally) mitigated.
5. They love the fact that they can shred apart any melee class, and they do quite well against other classes as well.

I'm not saying that fire mages don't have their use. They certainly can deliver a punch. I am saying, though, that I see many high level mages switching from fire to ice, because they like the general utility that being an ice mage provides. And when ice mages are talking about having 1.5-2.1k ice bolts against players, that shows that they're not lacking in dps either.

[LochnarITB]

Lochnar's build has been this since he was old enough to start adding points.



This build goes for freezing and crits for damage and for ice barrier for protection. I have more +crit than +damage in my damage set*, so I don't see anywhere near the 1.5-2.1k crits that MJ mentions. I do, however, see frequent crits and freezes. Even though I kill slower than a fire mage does, I love this mage. If no priest is around to shield, no worries, I have my own slightly weaker version that doesn't burn my mana pool while protecting me, although I still have that option too if needed. I also have the ice block, but I don't find myself using it. One problem with the ice barrier seems to have been added somewhere around the 1.5 patch. Spells are not supposed to be interrupted while under the barrier. That included bandaging as well. Lately, it seems I have a chance to be interrupted when doing so. Another issue I have with the frost spells/talents is that blizzard does not crit. I have been told it is working as designed so I guess I have to live with it. Blizzard with slowing/freezing/critting would be beauty indeed.

I am also trying a fire mage now and find that he does kill significantly faster, but he just isn't as much fun. There is just something evilly enjoyable about watching a monster walking towards you because they have been slowed or standing there with a dumb look as you pelt them in an ice prison.



*Lochnar is severely lacking in high end damage equipment due to extreme aversion to pubbies. I inspected a mage named Katina(?) the other day. Almost all purple and all I could think is WOW! at the devastation that set must bring.

[Bob the Beholder]

Lochnar's build has been this since he was old enough to start adding points.


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That is very much like the build that I am likely to use, except that I am skipping Ice Barrier and Frost Channeling to free up points to improve burst damage with Presence of Mind and Improved Cone of Cold.

That, and I would very much like to max out Frostbite, as seeing a rogue who starts beating on me when I've got Ice Armor up just sit frozen in place like, "What? Damn." just makes me want to laugh so hard. But I don't think I can really spare more than two or three points for it. :(

It took probably 50 levels of magery to convince me that Presence of Mind was something to give up any top-tier talent for, and frost is just too clogged with useful stuff to have many points left over.

[Bob the Beholder]

Double post ahoy!

I have switched to a frost build much like Frost Build Number One I posted earlier, and have found it to be quite effective. But, with my experience in the fire tree, it is my opinion that in solo PvP, the fire spec is superior.

Group PvP is an entirely different matter, and the only reason I'm not out farming gold for another respec right now. There are two things that make frost better for group PvP: Improved Blizzard, and Frostbite.

I have tried this out in Alterac Valley for a few hours, and if you can find a choke point to wedge the enemies into, and slam that point with Blizzard, it is devastating. The damage itself can be beaten, but the massive slow and possible freeze completely slows your average pickup raid infinitely. Because Blizzard has such a huge radius that the only way to completely avoid it is to fall back or charge into the grinder. An uncoordinated raid doesn't want to fall back, and, from what I've seen, can't commit to a full-on charge (funny, nobody wants to charge forward just to find that everybody else stayed back). So they just sit there. Slow, immobile, dying. The various warriors and rogues take advantage of the slow, injured opponents and proceed to slice 'em up. And the enemies get pushed back. I wonder why?

Really, after doing that for about an hour, alliance rogues, warriors, etc. would kamikaze rush into the horde zerg just to rip ME down, so that they could progress. Not to mention that I really enjoy finding the one annoying paladin who brags about wearing his 80 bajillion fire resist gear so that mages crit pyroblasts on him for 200 damage, and start fwapping him with frost bolts.

I may switch back, but I'm not entirely sure. As it is now, I'm not sure where to go with my equipment. With the critical mass fire build I was looking for +spell crit chance on my equipment to maximise the ignite. But with the naturally lower frost bolt damage, should I look for crit gear to see more 1,000 damage frostbolts, or damage gear, so that when I use shatter to trigger crits it's more devastating?

[LochnarITB]

But with the naturally lower frost bolt damage, should I look for crit gear to see more 1,000 damage frostbolts, or damage gear, so that when I use shatter to trigger crits it's more devastating?
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Lochnar's damage set is a mix of +crit and +damage. The crits are great, but it is somewhat disappointing to get a crit and still be under 1k, thus the +damage. As I get better equipment (if I get better equipment?), I would hope to up the +damage without losing any of the +crit. Lochnar's build is focused on getting the crits, specifically freezing the baddie and then having the extra crit chance proc while they are frozen.

[Rinnhart]

The fire mages I know are all completely insane.

That said, they swear by the reach of the fire tree and by the big hits.

[MongoJerry]

One thing should also be noted: Frost mages can get as much +damage items as fire mages, so even though fire mages can always intrisically out dps a frost mage, the percentage difference between the two builds lessens as a mage gets better items. Add in the fact that fire resistance is more common than ice resistance, then at some point one can imagine a cross-over point where frost mages do more damage than fire mages -- plus they get all the slowing, freezing, and shielding goodies that frost mages enjoy. So, the choice between fire and ice builds might depend on your gear. If you're still wearing a lot of green items, then fire might be the way to go. But if you're starting to acquire purples, then you might consider a frost build, because your dps isn't going to be hurting anyway.

[The Gnu]

I recently respecced to a slightly unorthodox build, which so far has been really great. It's created to do two things good, Warsong Gulch and Molten Core, and is therefore a combination of slowing effects and mana efficiency.

Sorry for the messy layout, but I'm really tired atm. :P

Frost Mastery
Improved Frostbolt Rank 5
Permafrost Rank 5
Ice Shards Rank 5
Winter's Chill Rank 3
Piercing Ice Rank 1
Cold Snap Rank 1
Arctic Reach Rank 2
Frost Channeling Rank 3
Ice Block Rank 1
Frost Total: 26
Arcane Mastery
Improved Arcane Missiles Rank 5
Arcane Concentration Rank 5
Improved Arcane Explosion Rank 5
Evocation Rank 1
Improved Counterspell Rank 2
Arcane Meditation Rank 2
Presence of Mind Rank 1
Arcane Mind Rank 4
Arcane Total: 25
Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

I usually use Rank 1 Frostbolt to slow people down, since it only has a 1 second casting time. Prescence of mind is there for instacast of frostbolts, polymorph, flame strike, or the occational surprise fireball. (when a mage has activated frost ward, for instance ;) )