Dark Clouds Gather

[Mavfin]

Actually I'll be working on strengthening our communication lines with the Basin for this very reason. :)
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OK. I won't mince words here. After reading all this trash, it all comes down to one thing. Those who want the epic items the most will always jump to the big guilds who can get them for them, and will justify it any way they can, and don't care who they leave in the lurch. Items are everything to these people. Not cameraderie, not friendship, ITEMZ. There's nothing you can do, Tal. They just stick around in your guild until they can get entrance into the others. Your guilds are just something to do till they reach their goal of the raid guilds.

We've got a couple in our guild like that, we know who they are, and we don't count on them for future anything, as we know they'll jump soon.

Good luck, Tal and Darian.

Edit: At least the 2 I have told me 3 weeks ago they were going to jump when the time came. I can live with that. I know better than to count on them be there a month from now.

[Treesh]

After reading all this trash, it all comes down to one thing.  Those who want the epic items the most will always jump to the big guilds who can get them for them, and will justify it any way they can, and don't care who they leave in the lurch.  Items are everything to these people.  Not cameraderie, not friendship, ITEMZ. 
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It sounds like you didn't quite read everything then if you think their decisions were based strictly on loot. I suggest you reread some of the posts again.

[Mavfin]

It sounds like you didn't quite read everything then if you think their decisions were based strictly on loot.  I suggest you reread some of the posts again.
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Read between the lines. It's all about loot. If your guild can't get it fast enough, it's time to move elsewhere, is what they're saying.

2nd Edit and addition: I'm not vilifying anyone. It's just people. They see other people with it, they want it, and Lurkers/CA can't get there quick enough. Therefore, they move to 'quicker pace' guilds. Guilds like IA (and this isn't vilifying anyone either) routinely skim the cream off the top of guilds that are 'nearly there'. It's just a WoW fact. And nothing that you can do about it.

[Kevin]

Read between the lines.  It's all about loot.  If your guild can't get it fast enough, it's time to move elsewhere, is what they're saying.

2nd Edit and addition: I'm not vilifying anyone.  It's just people.  They see other people with it, they want it, and Lurkers/CA can't get there quick enough.  Therefore, they move to 'quicker pace' guilds.  Guilds like IA (and this isn't vilifying anyone either) routinely skim the cream off the top of guilds that are 'nearly there'.  It's just a WoW fact.  And nothing that you can do about it.
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I disagree. Skan left because of people issues and from the talking I've done with him him he's much happier and I'm happy about that. I don't know if he has gotten any better loot at all yet, but he has gotten a fresh challenge that he was missing. I still talk to him in game from time to time and I bet you I will be partying with him from time to time as well. Since he was very focused on Rylea and because of play schedules. I didn't expect to see him around as much. But I still communicate with him.

I've played with mjdoom on Galreth more since the announcement than I had before he made it. Maybe not a lot more but he is just as accesible as he was before. I've played with Flyndar as much as I had before this post as well. Flyndar was with us when we killed Onyxia. I've seen mjdoom play both Flyndar and Galreth with no chance of getting any loot at all since this announcement. He seems to be pretty happy with getting to the new challenges that have been presented to him. He is still wearing gear that Gnolack made for him and is having fun.

Arethor has been around just as much has played his alts just as much and has helped us out just as much as he did before. Haven't specifically asked him how the new challenges are going but I bet they are going well too.

As I mentioned before I played with Sommli as much before and after the switch. I talk to him frequently as well.

I played with Hillary more after she moved to Carpe Aurum and before she retired than I did while she was a lurker.

From my and several other lurkers perspectives nothing has really changed. I see as much of them and play with them and get assistance from them at the same rate. This may dwindle but they are all still contributing on the forums they are all still lurkers, even if they arn't <lurkers>.

I personally don't think you are giving these three enough credit and this coming from the guy who gave them all a very heart felt #$%& you as well. This of course I explained to death already. I still wish all of the people who left were wearing the <lurkers> banner in game. But there are many reasons other than loot to leave a guild. Though I guess since loot = character progression in this game it makes it easy to say that when you leave to progress a character you leave to get loot. But that is the reason these three left or the people before them left either.

[Raziel]

Actually, the new challenges are causing quite a lot of in-guild friction at the moment. It's very easy to see just who is there for the easy loot and who isn't - when the going gets rough, the easy lewts krew stop showing up.

You should all be proud of the fact that Rylea, Galreth and some of the other Lurkers are part of the group that consistently and regularly is there to throw themselves at the new and challenging encounters.

The easy lewts krew is a completely different bunch. Believe it or not, every high end guild gets freeloaders in disguise, and BWL is really good at outing them. The Lurkers who came over are anything but freeloaders. Hell, they're the best recruits we've had in a while in terms of skill and commitment.

You should be proud of them instead of writing them off as loot whores.

[Tal]

You should all be proud of the fact that Rylea, Galreth and some of the other Lurkers are part of the group that consistently and regularly is there to throw themselves at the new and challenging encounters.[right][snapback]85134[/snapback][/right]

We are.

The Lurkers who came over are anything but freeloaders.&nbsp; Hell, they're the best recruits we've had in a while in terms of skill and commitment.[right][snapback]85134[/snapback][/right]

And thus you see why this split hurt so much. Some of our best and brightest have moved on. Its still not easy getting over. I take solace that some of the alts are still with us and continue to play with us.

You should be proud of them instead of writing them off as loot whores.
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I've never written any Lurker off and I'm not starting now. My job as shephard for these cats wouldn't allow anything less. And yes the Lurkers are just like cats. Fiercely independent and contrary but I wouldn't have them any other way. :)

[Raziel]

I wasn't really referring to you, Tal.

[Tal]

I wasn't really referring to you, Tal.
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I'm just stating the official position of the Lurkers for the benefit of those that have moved on. I want them to know that we are still proud of them. :)

[Mavfin]

Actually, the new challenges are causing quite a lot of in-guild friction at the moment.&nbsp; It's very easy to see just who is there for the easy loot and who isn't - when the going gets rough, the easy lewts krew stop showing up.

You should all be proud of the fact that Rylea, Galreth and some of the other Lurkers are part of the group that consistently and regularly is there to throw themselves at the new and challenging encounters.

The easy lewts krew is a completely different bunch.&nbsp; Believe it or not, every high end guild gets freeloaders in disguise, and BWL is really good at outing them.&nbsp; The Lurkers who came over are anything but freeloaders.&nbsp; Hell, they're the best recruits we've had in a while in terms of skill and commitment.

You should be proud of them instead of writing them off as loot whores.
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The fact remains that guilds like yours operate by skimming the cream off the top of the 'almost there' guilds, and do it by offering the prospect of the high-end loot quicker than they would have gotten it in their old guild. Of course the 'almost there' guild is unhappy about losing 3 of the people who knew the most about MC/Onyxia/BWL. This will all blow over after a bit, and life goes on, but don't try to dress this up as anything other than what it was. The Lurkers guild wasn't good enough anymore for your three recruits, so they came to you to get to the good stuff quicker.

Raziel, I wish your three recruits and your guild luck. Darian and Tal, I wish you luck, and realize that you will always lose some of your best people to the raid guilds, right when you thought they were going to get your guild to that point. It's the business of the raid guilds to find those people. They don't wish to train anyone before a certain skill level. They leave that to you. You're just the farm system for them, as far as they're concerned. Such is WoW reality. (If you don't believe me about the training and 'farm' comments, go back and read the posts about filling slots from other guilds. Usual raid guild arrogance. They are NOT in the business of training anyone)

Raziel, this is not a personal attack on you, your guild, or the people who moved. Call it commentary, if you want, on the state of affairs in WoW, and how things really work. The smaller guilds train them up, and the best and the brightest who aren't willing to finish the work of building the guild up that they are in, come to you and other raid guilds. You can say the other guild "wasn't ready", "wasn't cohesive", "didn't have the equipment", or any other reason, but it all comes out the same. Some are willing to push a guild over the top, and some aren't.

Well, I've said my piece, for good or ill. Live long and prosper.

[Darian]

Darian and Tal, I wish you luck, and realize that you will always lose some of your best people to the raid guilds, right when you thought they were going to get your guild to that point.
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I doubt that'll happen going forward. To the best of my knowledge, there's only one person in the entire mass of folks we're depending on who's gotten any further than we already have now, and he's already left the guild and then come back home. The ability to be press forward with your friends when you're at the same level as they are is a strong incentive to stay. At the very least, nobody else has come to me and started complaining that we need to go hit MC more often (although we have talked about some plans to farm trash mobs on off-nights), and that's going to be the first indication of unrest at this point.

[Skandranon]

Call it commentary, if you want, on the state of affairs in WoW, and how things really work.&nbsp; [right][snapback]85154[/snapback][/right]

Mav, you, like Bolty, steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the reason why I, at least, left. What would you do if the people in the guild stopped being fun to play with? Would you continue to pay every month for misery?

[Mavfin]

Mav, you, like Bolty, steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the reason why I, at least, left.  What would you do if the people in the guild stopped being fun to play with?  Would you continue to pay every month for misery?
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We took different paths, Skan. I was in your position once, stepped out of the guild for a couple weeks, and then realized I could 1: jump to a raid guild or 2: go back and build this one more toward that direction. It had become un-fun, as you say. The week or two away let me solve some of that, and I sat back and looked at the guild, and figured out who the likely raid-chars were, and who the casual ones were who weren't going to be interested in the work to get there. I went back and started working on getting people ready. The pull of seeing the new content and the new loot wasn't strong enough to pull me away from the guild that had helped make me what I was.

So, I guess I answered your question. I've already been there and done that. Your choice was different. Please notice, Skan and all who read this, I've not said a bad word about you in this post, and I won't. It's your money, you pays your price and you takes your choices.

P.S. Thanks for the compliment, lumping me with Bolty, who's still the best, even if people don't appreciate it.

Edit: why does B ) become B)

[martini]

Just wanted to say that I'm going to be making more of an effort to check the /honorables channel, and please feel free to give me a shout if you need someone to relay a message to Basin guild chat, if you're looking for extras to fill out a raid. Best wishes to the Lurkers, and I hope to continue to read of you successes here.

[Skandranon]

We took different paths, Skan.&nbsp; I was in your position once, stepped out of the guild for a couple weeks, and then realized I could 1: jump to a raid guild or 2: go back and build this one more toward that direction.&nbsp; It had become un-fun, as you say.&nbsp; The week or two away let me solve some of that, and I sat back and looked at the guild, and figured out who the likely raid-chars were, and who the casual ones were who weren't going to be interested in the work to get there.&nbsp; I went back and started working on getting people ready.&nbsp; The pull of seeing the new content and the new loot wasn't strong enough to pull me away from the guild that had helped make me what I was.&nbsp;
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You're still missing the point. The primary reasons I left had nothing to do with raid versus casual or progression in endgame content. I had heavy personality conflicts with people who are in the guild, and it was emotionally draining. People in the Stormrage guild know this; they're aware that I was increasingly becoming unable to play with certain people. With no resolution in sight, I removed myself.

All of this, of course, you'd know if you'd actually read my posts. The lure of new content is, at most, tertiary to my reasons for leaving. Did you have serious conflicts with guild members, up to and including arguments across guild chat and in tells? No? Then you weren't in the same situation.

[Tal]

You're still missing the point.&nbsp; The primary reasons I left had nothing to do with raid versus casual or progression in endgame content.&nbsp; I had heavy personality conflicts with people who are in the guild, and it was emotionally draining.&nbsp; People in the Stormrage guild know this; they're aware that I was increasingly becoming unable to play with certain people.&nbsp; With no resolution in sight, I removed myself.

All of this, of course, you'd know if you'd actually read my posts.&nbsp; The lure of new content is, at most, tertiary to my reasons for leaving.&nbsp; Did you have serious conflicts with guild members, up to and including arguments across guild chat and in tells?&nbsp; No?&nbsp; Then you weren't in the same situation.
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If you ever, after spending some time away, feel that you would like to return. You know its only a /tell away right?

[LochnarITB]

I had heavy personality conflicts with people who are in the guild, and it was emotionally draining.&nbsp; People in the Stormrage guild know this; they're aware that I was increasingly becoming unable to play with certain people.
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I'm sorry Skan, but not everyone knew this. It didn't even cross my mind (prior to this thread) that you were pulling Rylea due to personality clashes. From my viewpoint, it did look like it was just to get to the top tier content on a regular basis. With the emphasis in this post, I am sitting here with questions running through my head. Was I one of the ones that he couldn't play with? Was I not up to his play standards? Did I say something to insult him? Was he upset by my usual babble in chat? Was there something I could have done to make it better for him? I would bet that there are others that this raises some of the same questions for.

If I had known that you were having such difficulties, with me or others, I would have tried to resolve it any way I could. Of course, any group will have squabbles, but I thought we were all mostly of like mind for the fun of the game. To see any toons swap guilds is, and will continue to be, hard for me to take lightly.