Dark Clouds Gather

[mjdoom]

Forum Drama for everyone! ::passes out pieces of pie. because pie > cake::
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Aww, but I wanted cake :angry:

- mjdoom

[Pesmerga]

Aww, but I wanted cake  :angry:

- mjdoom
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No one likes cake, with the exception of you and Darian! ::shakes fist::

However, we can compromise, and make it ice cream cake.

Ice Cream Cake > Pie > Cake. ::nods:: B)

[mjdoom]

No one likes cake, with the exception of you and Darian! ::shakes fist::

However, we can compromise, and make it ice cream cake.

Ice Cream Cake > Pie > Cake. ::nods::  B)
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Ice Cream Cake ftw! :w00t: :D :w00t:

[Raziel]

And not everyone finds raiding every single day fun either.  Again, I point you back to your comment about how many people IA loses a month.  IA have to constantly recruit to cover their loses, have you ever wondered why?  Have you also ever wondered why MJ can raid constantly?  It's because they don't try to raid everyday with the same people and thus build commeraderie while not forcing people to do things they don't want to.  Maybe IA's lose of people has more to do with this than not.

I would be very, very careful about mouthing off about my guild.

Militus Justica, IMO, can raid constantly because they have a ton of members. If 5 people take a vacation, there are replacements.

IA does not "lose people" per se. People simply find jobs or go on holidays/hiatus over the summer. Because we pretty much have about 30-35 active members and a pool of semi-regulars, a few people going on summer vacation can really dent our raid attendance, especially when the semi-regulars don't show either.

That's something we're discussing internally now, and dealing with at an internal level. We're dealing with it by recruiting a very limited number of additional people to cover the gaps, and working on strategies to deal with the inevitable of having 45-50 people logged on for a 40 man raiding night.

I am amused by the assertion that we are having problems because we raid too much or force people to raid. Let me clue you in there: IA is a raiding guild. Everyone who joins has to want to raid and be able to raid on a pretty consistent basis. We actually don't try and raid every day (unless it's more attempts at beating BWL content). In fact, before BWL we raided three days a week. The difference between IA and Lurkers is those three days are enough to clear MC, kill Ragnaros and down Onyxia.

I for one aren't bored of raiding. In fact, raiding is about all that is interesting. The 30ish regulars that aren't on summer vacation/summer jobs WANT to raid, every day. Lockouts and lame blockades (Vaelastrasz) are frustrating. We want to be in BWL every night, we want to be progressing. It's kinda tough when only 30 people show.

However, for the most part they are not showing out of boredom with the game. They are not showing due to holidays/summer schedules. There are a couple who are bored and not showing, and they're rude bastards for not telling us ahead of time. Like I said, we'll deal with it, we'll recruit a few people that we know are good players, and be back on track.

Regardless we got up and did Domo with 26 or so, and got Ragnaros down with 34.

There is no such thing as uberest of guilds.  After running things as much as IA does with those that stick around, these instances become old hat.  Think back to IA's early runs and then to more recent runs and tell me honestly that you can't sleepwalk through the raids because you've done them so many times.  How many days did it take IA to finally take Onyxia for the first time and how many people did you have?  If it was 5 or more and 40 people every time, I hardly call that uberest.

How many days did it take IA to finally take Onyxia for the first time? One day. Third attempt.

After playing a metric ton of hours every day and levelling at least two characters to 60 (working on a third by the way.. gasp, my l33t raiding guild lets me have alts!).. I can safely say everything is boring and trivial. Even Onyxia and MC get that way.

What makes it fun is doing it with friends. I would hate to shatter some illusion you might have about exclusivity, but the folks in IA are a tight knit bunch of friends too. Friendship and comraderie is not something exclusive to a casual guild. IA has a ton of fun running stuff like Scholo or Strath EVEN THOUGH we've done it a billion times before. We have fun running Rend/UBRS. We have fun doing what we need to do dispite the fact it's all been done before. There are some awesome people in IA and we have fun raiding and instancing together.

Why? The people make it fun. It doesn't matter if you're hardcore and raid 1000 times a week, or casual and raid once or never. The content will still get boring. Accept it. Some of that is Blizzard's fault. Some of that is people overplaying it. The people who are still enjoying the game are finding ways to enjoy it dispite the repetition and the boredom. Repetition and boredom is a fact of life in any MMO, it just happens to come a bit sooner in WoW :)

So please, do not feed me or anyone else the line that the game is boring in a high end raiding guild. It's boring no matter where you go. It was boring when I was in the Basin. What makes it less boring is 1. more variety in the places you can go, and 2. people around you making it fun. I'm sure Lurkers has it's share of people that make things fun. IA just happens to go more places. People want to go places instead of being stuck with a limited selection of content. I'm surprised to see Lurkers knocking those who want to expand their horizons and have decided, subjectively, that they aren't suited to a more casual raiding schedule.

Granted, the horizon isn't that much broader, but being able to do MC + Onyxia + BWL is infinitely better than my former guild - where the best thing I could hope to 'raid' was UBRS in a pickup with a mix and match of guilds, skills and greed. Pickups suck, if you haven't been paying attention.

I also think some of you have an unrealistic idea of how to fill out a raid. It is not practical to fill out missing roster slots with unknown quantities from other guilds. Period. If you can't figure out why, then... well, i'm not going to bother going into detail. I'm sure someone will jump right in and claim it's all about the loot. It's not. Apps on raids end up with loot because we all have it and it's an upgrade for them. Well, actually, that only goes for Warlock apps.

As our guild charter says, loot is the byproduct of our goals. Our goal is to be active, and raid regularly. That ethos attracts people who, surprise surprise, want to raid regularly. None of you should be surprised if people who want to raid more frequently end up going to a guild that raids more frequently. I think that's all that this is.

Now, it's taken pretty much a direct insult to my guild to get me to step up and post. Rest assured, I read the Lurker Lounge pretty regularly, in fact moreso than my old boards. I would ask that you don't insult or make assumptions about In Aeternum or it's internal policies, members or practices in future. And some of you have some very wrong ideas about so-called "uber high end raiding guilds".

[bernard shakey]

because pie > cake::
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because there's no such thing as cheesepie :whistling:

[Pesmerga]

becaus there's no such thing as cheesepie  :whistling:
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Cheesecake is not a cake, despite how misleading the name may be. It is it's own entity, and ranks right alongside Ice Cream Cake.

[Tal]

I would be very, very careful about mouthing off about my guild.

<snip>

Now, it's taken pretty much a direct insult to my guild to get me to step up and post.&nbsp; Rest assured, I read the Lurker Lounge pretty regularly, in fact moreso than my old boards.&nbsp; I would ask that you don't insult or make assumptions about In Aeternum or it's internal policies, members or practices in future.&nbsp; And some of you have some very wrong ideas about so-called "uber high end raiding guilds".
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I actually fail to see where anyone from either guild has insulted IA anymore than some IA members have insulted us. But I am sorry that you've seen the comments in this thread as a knock against IA - my apologies for that.

I've also detected a distinct "or else" kind of threat in your post. I would ask that you refrain from doing so - emotions are running high enough without posturing and preening. If anyone from any of the guilds doesn't abide by this request I'll close the thread and tell folks to take it to in-game/PM.

I also think some of you have an unrealistic idea of how to fill out a raid.&nbsp; It is not practical to fill out missing roster slots with unknown quantities from other guilds.&nbsp; Period.&nbsp; If you can't figure out why, then... well, i'm not going to bother going into detail.&nbsp; [right][snapback]84377[/snapback][/right]

And yet folks still manage to do so everyday across several servers in World of Warcraft. Not to mention we filled a 40 man last night and managed to drop Lucifron without frustration or drama. I'm sure this is my inexperience with raiding that is talking but I don't believe that raiding has to be limited to the big and hardcore guilds. I firmly believe that we can form alliances with other like minded guilds and get the job done without going under a single banner. :)

[Tal]

Topic moved to the Meeting Stone as it is Server-Specific.

[Sabra]

You know there are probably 29 people who think you are referring to "them".
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Oh more! Way more!

[Raziel]

I actually fail to see where anyone from either guild has insulted IA anymore than some IA members have insulted us. But I am sorry that you've seen the comments in this thread as a knock against IA - my apologies for that.

The part, in particular, about IA forcing players to do things, is what really got me. I'd be happy to go into details, perhaps privately, but you are way off base if you think the leadership ever pushes anyone to do anything - particularly stuff they don't want to do or have a moral problem with. If anything, our leadership needs to be more hardheaded not less ;)

But there is also the gentle insinuation that we are 1. elitist jerks (not to be confused with the actual guild, cool name) or 2. "easy mode" for practically every encounter in the game.

We might be on farm status for MC but that doesn't mean you can fall asleep at the switch. And doing Ragnaros is always a challenge whether you do it with 40 or 34 or whatever.

More importantly, perhaps you have percieved this, but when you start tackling the real endgame content you have to be fully prepared. You need to farm like crazy. For example, gearing up for Ragnaros meant we had to farm FR gear. That meant Hydraxian Waterlord faction, Thorium Brotherhood faction, Argent Dawn faction, Timbermaw Faction, and then there's the mats: MC materials (core leather, fiery core, lava core) and dark iron ore. When you get to that strata it's not simply about, say, beating Ragnaros. It's also about preparing for Ragnaros and all the things that go on behind the scenes to gear up for it. Suddenly, I was runniing Scholomance again, but this time with a purpose and for my guild. Or visiting Blasted Lands. Or farming crystals in Ungoro Crater.

Being in a raiding guild has, in my experience, given me a whole bunch of reasons to keep playing. You don't just sit around and wait for raid time; there's a ton of stuff to do in the interim. WoW seems to be a much more farm-heavy game than what i'm told about other MMO's. You really need to be out there collecting reagents or gold for repairs in between runs. It keeps me busy, much busier than I used to be sitting around spamming LFG UBRS.

In short it has both opened up new end-game content for me and revitalized the old to an extent.

And yet folks still manage to do so everyday across several servers in World of Warcraft. Not to mention we filled a 40 man last night and managed to drop Lucifron without frustration or drama. I'm sure this is my inexperience with raiding that is talking but I don't believe that raiding has to be limited to the big and hardcore guilds. I firmly believe that we can form alliances with other like minded guilds and get the job done without going under a single banner. :)

Raiding ISN'T limited to big or hardcore guilds. It will simply take you guys a bit longer to get there, but what people don't grasp when they whine on the Blizzard boards is that raiding isn't the sole perview of the exclusive el33t. You can and probably will get there.

Simply put it will take you longer to get there and raid events will happen less frequently, just because of the nature of the guild. That style doesnt suit everyone. At some point you will hit the encounter that requires a level of farming/preparation that probably isn't managable under a more casual schedule (eg, everyone go out and farm 5 elemental fire + x dreamfoil for Ragnaros and get a base FR of 200 unbuffed). There will be the inevitable struggle between the casual and the hardcore, more properly defined (IMHO) as between the slower paced and faster paced, the people that are ready and able to throw themselves at it now and the people that are content to build slowly to it and get there in the end.

The problem isn't that you guys aren't achieving, far from it. I just think some people want a faster pace of achievement and quicker progress along the learning curve of encounters. They've been patient and waited, and while I can't speak for them, i'd guess their complaint is basically the same as mine was back in the day: it's not happening. Try as you might, it seems that encounter is taking forever to master, and some people (not all, just some!) are making the same basic mistakes they made the first time they zoned in. That is frustrating; that sucks the fun out of the game. Eventually those people are drawn to the faster pace with the quicker learning curve, simply because it suits them better. That's all.

Can you fill up a raid with outsiders? Sure. But what it does is introduce another delay. It's more people that need to be brought up to speed, more people that need to download ventrilo and log on, more people that need to learn where to stand, what to do, how to react, when to move... etc, etc. It slows things rather than makes it quicker. And it does introduce drama - perhaps not today, but eventually down the road. It introduces disruption to the cohesive nature of having a very "sameness" in a raid roster week in week out.

The advantage of raiding under a single tag is that you are one cohesive unit and everyone has a feel for how everyone else plays. You all know eachother, know everyone's playing styles, know everyone's role and you can trust that they know theirs. You don't have to check, for example, if that extra tagalong rogue is stabbing the firelord instead of the lavaspawn. You can just trust that it will happen, and that makes runs smoother, faster, less frustrating and a whole lot more fun. Especially when you pull two firelords and an ancient core hound that fears :(

It's the difference between being in a car with a smooth ride and a well-oiled engine, or being in a car that you have to stop and check the oil and give it a tune up. Will it get there? Sure. Will it purr? Heck, yeah, it can purr. But there's also times when it can chug and it makes you want to abandon it by the side of the road in frustration. And when you turn on your PC and DONT want to log into the game because of drama/frustration is probably when you should be moving on. At least, that's how it was for me.

What's kinda funny is, Militus Justica was cited as a good example of raiding. I tend to favour having the same dependable, reliable folks to raid with week in week out than having a raid roster that changes. That's why i'm happy, for example, IA has the people it needs and no more. Of course it sucks when a few go on holiday, but again we're working on that :)

[RTM]

because pie > cake
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Now here's some drama i can get behind!



The pie/cake debate has gone on for centuries and diminished in magnitude only with the advent of the cheescake, and then only for a short period of time before resuming its previous intensity. It's a little-known fact that the 1906 San Fransisco earthquake was initiated by a rogue group of pie-lovers as retribution for the late 19th and early 20th century success of the San Fransico cake manufacturing industry.

The conflict boils down to this: delicious fruit filling or moist fluffy sweetness. Proponents on both sides will point out that there is more to a pie than the filling (crust, for example) and more to a cake than fluffy sweetness (icing, for example) but that is a crock of baloney. Attempts at compromise have been attempted by combining various aspects of pies and cakes, and all have been universally met with derision or after a short period of acceptence disappeared into the annals of history. I am referring mainly to the Great Pake Fad of 1836, of course. While initially it appeared that pake would be the uniting catalyst between pie lovers and cake lovers, the tides of hate could not be stemmed (and in fact increased in intensity after the fad passed) by the tasty treat. This deepening hatred was the major contributor to the Civil War of the 1860's which many people mistakenly attribute to the relatively minor debate over slavery.

To be honest, I side with cake. It is the food of the upper class. While dirty pie-lovers fling their pastries willy-nilly into each other's faces while dressed in garish clown suits, cake afficianados sip tea with pinkies raised while nibbling petit-fours in air-conditioned parlours the world over. Over the years pie has diluted its once prestigous fruit heritage with half-baked knock-offs like custard, pumpkin, pecan, and mince. Cake has remained true to its fluffy heritage, although pie-lovers will claim that fruitcake is an example of the gross incestual bastardization of the prestigious cake lineage. This is simply not true, and shows a lack of intelligence on the pie side. Fruitcake was created as a secret side project with the government, who needed an edible substance that would survive a nuclear holocaust. The distribution of fruitcake was entrusted to agents disguised as old great-aunts and distant unliked relatives so as not to draw suspicion to the true reason for its creation. But I digress.

Famous cake eaters have included such illustrious personages as President Woodrow Wilson, Joan of Arc, Mozart, Jimi Hendrix, the entire cast of 'Scrubs', and Mark Hamill. Pie lovers, conversely, share company with such dregs as street corner drug dealers, country music singers, Whoopi Goldberg, and clowns. Ted Bundy's last meal included pie.

Marriage is a solemn vow and one not to be taken lightly and it is for that reason that pie is shunned during the celebrations of this most momentous commitment. A pie-cutting ceremony simply would not convey the depth of meaning associated with the marriage vows. Cakes have been used in 94% of all presidential fundraising dinners since 1875 due to an independent study which claimed that potential donors are rich, and rich people eat cake. Cakes are used to celebrate a loved one's birthday, because pie sucks.

The drama between pie and cake will never cease even though the superiority of cake is obvious. What will it take for the world to wake up and realize this? I submit that nothing short of nuclear holocaust will be effective.

[Tal]

The part, in particular, about IA forcing players to do things, is what really got me.&nbsp; I'd be happy to go into details, perhaps privately, but you are way off base if you think the leadership ever pushes anyone to do anything - particularly stuff they don't want to do or have a moral problem with.&nbsp; If anything, our leadership needs to be more hardheaded not less

But there is also the gentle insinuation that we are 1. elitist jerks (not to be confused with the actual guild, cool name) or 2. "easy mode" for practically every encounter in the game.[right][snapback]84387[/snapback][/right]

Honestly the message that the Lurkers and CA folks are getting is that we aren't good enough. That we have folks making mistakes that even applicants to IA doesn't make on their tryouts. The implication is that we've been held up to inspection and found wanting. A group of clowns compared to IA's lion tamers. That is some of what folks are responding to here. We're still in that exciting discovery phase of these encounters that guilds like IA can drop without sweat. We really don't need to be demeaned for being behind the curve. I should at this point make it clear that I'm not accusing you doing any of these things just showing you where some of our frustration.

Can you fill up a raid with outsiders?&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp; But what it does is introduce another delay.&nbsp; It's more people that need to be brought up to speed, more people that need to download ventrilo and log on, more people that need to learn where to stand, what to do, how to react, when to move... etc, etc.&nbsp; It slows things rather than makes it quicker.&nbsp; And it does introduce drama - perhaps not today, but eventually down the road.

The advantage of raiding under a single tag is that you are one cohesive unit and everyone has a feel for how everyone else plays.&nbsp; You all know eachother, know everyone's playing styles, know everyone's role and you can trust that they know theirs.&nbsp; You don't have to check, for example, if that extra tagalong rogue is stabbing the firelord instead of the lavaspawn.&nbsp; You can just trust that it will happen, and that makes runs smoother, faster, less frustrating and a whole lot more fun.&nbsp; Especially when you pull two firelords and an ancient core hound that fears [right][snapback]84387[/snapback][/right]

I would venture that having everyone under the IA guild tag hasn't necessarily saved them from drama. You might think that the guild is insular but you would be surprised what those of us on the outside hear about. Drama is inherent in social endeavours like this. What matters is how it is dealt with.

I can't speak for any others but I had fun last night. Even with the wipes, almost wipes and "mistakes" it was fun to be there and learning. Plus as an added bonus I actually got to swing my weapon consistently! :D

In closing cheers to the folks at IA - you're on the cutting edge of content and having fun. I wish you all the best in that endeavour. :)

[mjdoom]

The drama between pie and cake will never cease even though the superiority of cake is obvious. What will it take for the world to wake up and realize this? I submit that nothing short of nuclear holocaust will be effective.
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I nominate this as post of the thread!

[Pesmerga]

Wow.... that was the greatest post ever. Ever.

I still think you are wrong, but that's ok I guess.

Strawberry Cheesecake and Good Ice Cream cake are better than both. ::nods::

[mjdoom]

Simply put it will take you longer to get there and raid events will happen less frequently, just because of the nature of the guild.&nbsp; That style doesnt suit everyone.&nbsp; At some point you will hit the encounter that requires a level of farming/preparation that probably isn't managable under a more casual schedule (eg, everyone go out and farm 5 elemental fire + x dreamfoil for Ragnaros and get a base FR of 200 unbuffed).&nbsp; There will be the inevitable struggle between the casual and the hardcore, more properly defined (IMHO) as between the slower paced and faster paced, the people that are ready and able to throw themselves at it now and the people that are content to build slowly to it and get there in the end.

The problem isn't that you guys aren't achieving, far from it.&nbsp; I just think some people want a faster pace of achievement and quicker progress along the learning curve of encounters.&nbsp; They've been patient and waited, and while I can't speak for them, i'd guess their complaint is basically the same as mine was back in the day: it's not happening.&nbsp; Try as you might, it seems that encounter is taking forever to master, and some people (not all, just some!) are making the same basic mistakes they made the first time they zoned in.&nbsp; That is frustrating; that sucks the fun out of the game.&nbsp; Eventually those people are drawn to the faster pace with the quicker learning curve, simply because it suits them better.&nbsp; That's all.

Can you fill up a raid with outsiders?&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp; But what it does is introduce another delay.&nbsp; It's more people that need to be brought up to speed, more people that need to download ventrilo and log on, more people that need to learn where to stand, what to do, how to react, when to move... etc, etc.&nbsp; It slows things rather than makes it quicker.&nbsp; And it does introduce drama - perhaps not today, but eventually down the road.&nbsp; It introduces disruption to the cohesive nature of having a very "sameness" in a raid roster week in week out.
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From my perspective this is the heart of Raziel's post and he has expressed some of it better than I could. In response to Tal it is not a "not good enough" thing; it is the simple realities presented here. The conflicting paces of different players and the inherent details in bringing in new people.

Lurkers is in MC now and as far as I can tell doing pretty well. Still; due to the nature of the beast it will be a long long time (if it ever happens) before Lurkers are properly geared and ready for BWL and beyond. As time goes along and you progress at a slower pace you also increase the chances of Real Life™ or other issues causing people to need to be replaced with others who are not already geared like the previous char was. It is not that Lurkers will not accomplish things; it is that I don't think that the pace at which it will happen suits me well. There is no blame to place here, it's just that thems the facts.

- mjdoom

[Skandranon]

You know there are probably 29 people who think you are referring to "them".
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On the one hand, good. Incentive to keep getting better, because if you ever lose it, you're guaranteed to go nowhere. On the other hand, I know what you mean. To clarify, that wasn't directed at anyone in <Lurkers> or <Carpe Aurum>; only to the 11-12 slots you have to fill with pickups in every raid, at least one of which is likely to be filled with a feckless incompetent.

[Raziel]

I think as a guild, every guild needs to find it's own stride and pace, and be prepared for the fact that that pace wont suit everyone.

It's unfortunate and it sucks when friends are there. Believe it or not I left friends behind in the Basin, too. I still talk to them every so often, and halfheartedly ask them to come join me. But by the same yardstick that that pace was unsuited to me, my pace may not be suited to them.

Honestly the message that the Lurkers and CA folks are getting is that we aren't good enough. That we have folks making mistakes that even applicants to IA doesn't make on their tryouts. The implication is that we've been held up to inspection and found wanting. A group of clowns compared to IA's lion tamers. That is some of what folks are responding to here.

Well, quite frankly i'm sorry if this is the impression you've been getting; I don't think it's the case. I think it's simply, as Flyndar has stated above, that it's the conflicting paces of different players. Yes, part of that is for example how quickly the raid, as a whole, masters an encounter and how many times people have to make the same mistake before they stop doing it. It can be frustrating to watch and work with, and it happens at all levels.

As for drama, all I can say (without going into too much detail) is that our recent drama has had more to do with Blizzard introducing a POS buggy frustrating encounter than anything else. A lot of us have been thirsting for the challenge and stuff that makes us really work for progress. What we didn't want is to have our efforts thwarted and set back by constant bugs and stupid, obvious errors in scripts.

Look how smooth MC is now. Try and imagine when it was first released, with crazy amounts of pathing bugs and evading mobs that would regen back to full life and reset for no apparent reason. One day BWL will be that bug free, we'll breeze through it "easy mode" in full tier 2 sets and nobody will remember these days of hardship. Right now we're slogging through an unfinished mess and dealing with bugs out of a hunger for new encounters.

But we'll get there. We'll master it. And when we do I am absolutely sure that our cheers and jubilation at beating Razorgore will be the same as your cheers and jubilation when it all comes together and you down your next named in MC. We're more similar than you think, just running at different RPM's, and I don't know how to fault people who switch lanes to the speed limit that suits them. What hurts a guild is when players continue in denial and either hold themselves back or pretend they can go faster when they really can't make the level of commitment required. It just ruins their gaming experience because they are under constant pressure/stress and it brings down everyone around them.

And yes, we let people play alts. Continuing to "Lurk" is not out of the question, like I said, there's more downtime between raids than you think.

[Roland]

Welllllll, he is married to one of the players, who is in the guild....&nbsp; ;)&nbsp; :P

/end stupid comments
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You know what I meant. :) And he did too.

[Cybit]

First off, I'm surprised the Lurkers have felt that they don't have enough allies/people. You are always invited to any Basin MC/Ony run (we got MC in half an hour). Y'all just pop in honorables and ask, we're glad to help with any raid you guys set up. :)

Just my two cents. You don't want to hear my rant about hardcore raiding and what it does to guilds. :D

[Tal]

Y'all&nbsp; just pop in honorables and ask, we're glad to help with any raid you guys set up.&nbsp; :)&nbsp;
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Actually I'll be working on strengthening our communication lines with the Basin for this very reason. :)