Paladins...is it as bad as they say?

[Arnulf]

But we are not Undead , we are Forsaken , I seem to remember back in one of the Beta's we were undead and all those rules applied , but not anymore :P
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That's right. And I don't have a problem with that. I know why you quoted the part about Exorcism. I can imagine what would happen if Blizzard would apply the Undead rule to the Forsaken in general: Many Alliance players who are mentally unstable would roll a paladin just to wreak havoc amongst the Forsaken and make the virtual world of Azeroth miserable for the Undead players... Undercity would be raided on a regular basis with waves of paladins... Noone would roll an Undead anymore. The Horde would lose a great fraction on their side. On my server one third of the Horde population is Undead. I would not want that either. And I'm playing Alliance.

Anyway, I'm not asking for the old way of things, old as they were in Beta. What I wish is that I could sense Undead. Nothing more. But I know perfectly well that this is not going to happen, or at least very unlikely. In any way, I'm not complaining.

But what I seriously wish is that Blizzard would please stop adding content and fix the bugs!

-Arnulf

[Saxywoo]

But we are not Undead , we are Forsaken , I seem to remember back in one of the Beta's we were undead and all those rules applied , but not anymore :P
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I could have sworn that exorcism worked when I went after an "undead" mage in the Badlands.

It doesn't matter to me one way or another. Pallys have "Turn Undead" which for those that don't know, is Fear for the Undead. Again, I've gotten it to work on players. However, this was before the last patch.....

SaxyCorp

[Tal]

It should. It should! But it does not always. I have 33 points in Protection, having improved Seal of Fury and a good 1H weapon now (I think). Casting Seal of Fury on myself and hitting mobs three to four times should keep aggro on me. But once it's gone I have a hard time getting it back..[right][snapback]84997[/snapback][/right]

Have you tried doing it the way I listed it earlier? Its rare anymore when I lose aggro if I use the judgements and fire up my other holy damage skills.

Well, out of sheer exasperation I have one last resort for trigger-happy casters in my group: Blessing of Protection. Sure-fire way of removing hate from them ... and hopefully to me.

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In my experience the next one on the hate list is usually the healer.

[Tal]

I could have sworn that exorcism worked when I went after an "undead" mage in the Badlands.

It doesn't matter to me one way or another.  Pallys have "Turn Undead" which for those that don't know, is Fear for the Undead.  Again, I've gotten it to work on players.  However, this was before the last patch.....

SaxyCorp
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None of the paladin's undead skills work on other players. They did in Beta but was taken out because it was seen as overpowered. Which is sad really because I think that was the last time we were feared in PvP. :)

[Quark]

In my experience the next one on the hate list is usually the healer.
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Really? Not some overzealous Rogue? Well, we can get rid of the hate easily compared to others, but it's there :)

[Tal]

Really?  Not some overzealous Rogue?  Well, we can get rid of the hate easily compared to others, but it's there :)
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If I'm MT on Shar? Yeah. Even above the rogues because I don't have the benefit of 10% damage reduction and more stamina. :)

[lemekim]

None of the paladin's undead skills work on other players. They did in Beta but was taken out because it was seen as overpowered. Which is sad really because I think that was the last time we were feared in PvP. :)
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Undead were changed to Foresaken moreso because they were overpowered, and not really because of Paladins "owning" Undead players, who are really the only ones who benefitted from the players being Undead. Priest, while having Shackle Undead, would not be able to use Psychic scream or Mind Control again Undead, so for them there is no real advantage to players being Undead.

Consider, most Undead would rather have a weakness against one class (Paladin) and have advantage versus several other classes, and be immune to Polymorph, Sap, Charm, Fear, Mind Control and Drowning (Imagine doing Onyxia or Magmadar with undead tank - it would make current Fear Ward look balanced). Consider that AoE fear is one of the most important CC tools in large-scale fighting, and you start to see how powerful it would be.

But JUST giving paladins ability to attack Foresaken with anti-undead skills and not giving Foresaken any benefits of actually being undead would be kinda retarded.

[Tal]

Undead were changed to Foresaken moreso because they were overpowered, and not really because of Paladins "owning" Undead players, who are really the only ones who benefitted from the players being Undead.
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Lem - I'm going off my memory of what Blizzard posted when they made the change - your reasons actually make more sense as I don't recall outdamaging, say a mage's fireball, with my exorcisms. So what I'm really rambling on about is to thank you - it makes more sense now for Undead to be Forsaken. :)

[Mavfin]

I would tend to disagree here.  My protection spec warrior bounces from mob to mob at a killing rate only beaten by my rogue.  I will agree if you're talking about using a 1handed weapon, but even a protection spec warrior should be soloing with a slow 2Hander and a weapon switch macro to go 1H+shield only when necessary (shield slam or to silence a caster), this should be a similar weapon to what a pally should be using with SoC for the procs to be as useful as possible.

While heroic strike damage may be pretty minimal, I never use it solo, ever because it's so horribl rage inefficient.  It takes almost as much rage as shield slam but does 1/5th the damage or less.  Pretty much ANY other skill is a better rage dump than HS, mostly because everything else gives an additional chance at triggering overpower.  Shield slam is well over weapon damage at the levels it is offered, and is guaranteed twice per fight because of the rage you generate.  This itself is more damage than SoC, and it is predictable.  Plus you can dump additional rage into low damage skills like hamstring or sunder to add value plus potentially get a dodge for an overpower.

The predictability of your damage allows you to not use skills that will eat rage when a mob is at 5% and the next hit will kill it anyway.  Then you can use that rage to take the next mob down significantly quicker than normal.  But if SoC procs when a mob is at 5% and running away, oh well, you just "wasted" it. 

You are also assuming the same gear, and likely a paladin will be focusing less on strength and more on INT than a warrior will.  All of these things combine to give a signficant advantage to a protection spec warrior in terms of killing rate.  If you are having similar DPS rates between a protection warrior and a pally when solo, then you are simply not playing the protection warrior in an efficient manner when solo,  you're certainly not using your retaliate every half hour for an 'I win' button against an encampment of 4 or so or the elite of your choice.
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But, the key on soloing protection warrior vs soloing a pally is the lack of self-heal, CC, or vanish-and-bandage. I watch most other classes routinely solo orange quests, and just watch, as I can't do that w/o a healer of some kind along. Every time I hear a pally want more damage, I shake my head. No, your class is fine on damage and soloing ability.

[Tal]

But, the key on soloing protection warrior vs soloing a pally is the lack of self-heal, CC, or vanish-and-bandage.  I watch most other classes routinely solo orange quests, and just watch, as I can't do that w/o a healer of some kind along.  Every time I hear a pally want more damage, I shake my head. No, your class is fine on damage and soloing ability.
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No. Most players are asking for consistent dps. Not relying upon the RNG for your damage. I'm more than happy to be at the bottom of the DPS list (as I usually am) if there was at least one button I could push that would have some effect on the outcome.
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[lemekim]

I suppose we will just have to wait and see what kind of a spell Blizzard implements. Perhaps it might be something like Druid's Moonfire - possible high DPS (albeit at VERY steep mana cost), but generally used for it's dot to provide somewhat consistant DPS. Or it could be another Blessing, one that stacks a dot on the target with each hit, and when judged, will do damage based on how many applications were stacked on the target (up to some max amount).

Wild speculations of course. But we should definately revisit this topic after people see the new spell on the test server.

[Tal]

I suppose we will just have to wait and see what kind of a spell Blizzard implements. Perhaps it might be something like Druid's Moonfire - possible high DPS (albeit at VERY steep mana cost), but generally used for it's dot to provide somewhat consistant DPS. Or it could be another Blessing, one that stacks a dot on the target with each hit, and when judged, will do damage based on how many applications were stacked on the target (up to some max amount).

Wild speculations of course. But we should definately revisit this topic after people see the new spell on the test server.
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I believe it will be the return of holy strike. Horribly mana inefficent but fun nonetheless. ;)

[Arnulf]

Have you tried doing it the way I listed it earlier? Its rare anymore when I lose aggro if I use the judgements and fire up my other holy damage skills.
In my experience the next one on the hate list is usually the healer.
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Yes, yes. I have. Thank you. Retribution Aura + Seal of Fury against multiple enemies. Judging Seal of Fury and dealing Holy damage vs. single mobs. It just seems to me that even while I'm specced on Protection a Retribution specced paladin with Consecration has a much easier time to hold aggro. For reference: my talent distribution.

For dealing holy damage in conjunction with Seal of Fury I can use:

* Seal of Righteousness (casting on myself & judging)
* Holy Shield (not to confuse with Divine Shield)
* Retribution Aura
* Exorcism (vs. undead)
* Holy Wrath (vs. undead)

[Arnulf]

Yes, yes. I have. Thank you. Retribution Aura + Seal of Fury against multiple enemies. Judging Seal of Fury and dealing Holy damage vs. single mobs. It just seems to me that even while I'm specced on Protection a Retribution specced paladin with Consecration has a much easier time to hold aggro. For reference: my talent distribution.

For dealing holy damage in conjunction with Seal of Fury I can use:

* Seal of Righteousness (casting on myself & judging)
* Holy Shield (not to confuse with Divine Shield)
* Retribution Aura
* Exorcism (vs. undead)
* Holy Wrath (vs. undead)
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Yes! I did it! I tanked Baron Rivendare (and almost all of Undead Stratholme) in a 5 man group! Our setup was priest, mage, rogue, druid, and paladin (me). I'm quite elated about this. :D

-Arnulf

[Concillian]

I would need to use my 2 hander with swaps to sword and board for a slam to see about what my real average DPS would be when really trying to do damage. I can't really see any other skills to dump rage in that would have much of an effect on upping my damage other than execute and since most farming mobs don't have that my HP saving for 100 rage executes doesn't look to be the best way for maximizing damage. 
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Grind on elites.

My prot warrior is 43 now and I still grind on the ~37 elite ogres in Alterac when I need to blow through rested bonus. I average between 115 and 150 DPS according to the damage calculator for CTMod.

Downtime is on average a bandage every 2 kills and the time to make those bandages, (since the ogres drop silk and mageweave to make them with). That really isn't that much downtime, I have less than I had with my rogue at the same level, and my killing speed feels similar. I honestly don't think a paladin L43 is going to be doing 100+ DPS, but I could be wrong.

[Kevin]

Grind on elites.

My prot warrior is 43 now and I still grind on the ~37 elite ogres in Alterac when I need to blow through rested bonus.  I average between 115 and 150 DPS according to the damage calculator for CTMod.

Downtime is on average a bandage every 2 kills and the time to make those bandages,  (since the ogres drop silk and mageweave to make them with).  That really isn't that much downtime, I have less than I had with my rogue at the same level, and my killing speed feels similar.  I honestly don't think a paladin L43 is going to be doing 100+ DPS, but I could be wrong.
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Again I'm looking at my L60 warrior and I can rarely get that kind of DPS even on -6 mobs. It's gotten better with a new one hander and dual wielding is higher single target DPS now. I haven't looked at the CTMod damage calculator since I started to use recap but I recall that it showed a higher DPS than recap did when I had them both running by 5 to 10 DPS but still 105 to 140 DPS is higher than my warrior gets, though I generally don't grind humanoids so less overpower chances. I did hold about 135 DPS in stratholme the other day with a lot of whirlwinds and cleaves with 4-5 mobs around a lot (the paladin was getting most of the aggro with all the undead skills) and my attack power/crit gear on. The paladin and the fury warrior were holding around 160 and 150 respectively. I'd still like to know what you are doing to get that kind of DPS. That is better than the arms/fury warriors I've talked with at your level.

Yes, my L48 paladin can get 100 DPS on -6 mobs quite easily as well. I get 70 or so DPS with a one hander on actually and that just goes up with my two hander. Paladin DPS is not bad it just not controlable. And my paladin still grinds faster than my warrior did at that level. At least that is how I recall it.

[JustAGuy]

My level 60 Paladin is doing about 250 damage per swing, every 3 seconds. Not nearly good enough in PvP. Against monsters, throw in a Seal of Command every 30 seconds, and it's "good enough". PvP, no way. Paladin is nice in Stratholme, but other than that, he's pretty much tagging along for the ride (I heal and cleanse a LOT, so I pull my weight at least).

That's where this thread comes from; PvP is where a lot of high level players end up going toward, and the Paladin has no DPS to keep up with other classes. Sure he can bubble, heal himself, and cleanse most anything that is put on him and others, but it still doesn't change the fact that he can't kill other players with any efficiency.

To see just how poor the Paladin does in contrast, I've been playing a Shaman (on a PvP server no less). He's only 12, but he's already out-dpsing my 60 Paladin (HAHA). No, not really. But, my play partners and I are all playing Shamans together. If you ever want to see just how unbalanced the Shaman is, play three of them in the noob zone. Totems + shocks = nothing can stop us.

I feel pity for the Paladin that tries to attack us when we're older.

My original Mage, Paladin, Warrior team was good. It was capable. But if 5 level 11 mobs attacked us while we were level 8, it'd be a wipe pure and simple. Not so with the Shamans. Our three level 8 Shamans attacked and engaged five level 11 harpys (some casters) and won easily. EASILY. I don't believe any other class combination could do the same. If these were Paladins in the same situation, we'd all have to bubble and run.

I believe the same will apply in PvP. When our Shammys get old enough to do Warsong, I doubt we'll lose a match. Either on offense or defense, it doesn't matter. Totems + shocks + ghost wolf = score and laugh. Our current plan is to get to 20 so we can transform into ghost wolves, then run up to Westfall and do the deadmines.

SHAMAN NEEDS MORE BUFFS! *cough*