So confused about warrior talents, please help...

[onimusha]

I'm a complete and utter newb who's only been playing the game for a week, so please keep that in mind when you explain stuff. I've been trying to read some of the posts on warrior talents, but can't makes heads or tails of all the abbreviations people are using. I'm posting here for the first time because this site comes to me highly recommended and you folks seem to know your stuff.

So I have this level 21 dual wield warrior who has no talents yet. Why? Because I have no idea what's effective and what isn't. I like the fact that WoW allows you to redo your talents, so if you screw them up at a low level, you can make them work at higher levels.

But I figured I should post here and get some sage advice to get it right the first time.

I basically want to make the most effective dual wield warrior I can (unless dual wielding is bad for some reason). I'd like to do as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible (if that's a good goal). Here are the talents I'm considering after looking at a few talent trainers online:

Arms
Improved Heroic Strike
Improved Charge
Sword Specialization
Improved Thunderclap
Sweeping Strikes
Mortal Strikes

Fury
Cruelty
Piercing Howl
Dual Wield Specialization
Enrage
Flurry

Will these work well together? Are there better combos? I like to solo, but I also want to be effective in groups. I'm on an RP server, so PvP isn't a priority, but it would be nice as well...

[Brista]

The first point I'd make is that by conceiving of your character as a dual wield warrior you are rather limiting yourself. Most warriors will have an offensive set-up (and dual wield is fine for that) and a defensive set-up (and dual wield is less good)

Particularly in grouping other players may get rather frustrated with you if you don't use a shield. I'm sure you would feel the same way about a priest who you invited to the group who spent all his time casting damage spells and didn't heal

The basic approach to developing yourself as a dual wield warrior is to look for talents and equipment that help you as someone who makes a number of smaller hits rather than one big one

Unbridled Wrath for instance: gives you an 8% per talent point chance to generate an additional Rage point when you hit something with a melee weapon.

This is a much better skill for a warrior like you that gets lots of attacks as opposed to a warrior who gets one really big attack once in a while

Mortal Strike is the opposite. Mortal strike gives you one extra attack every 6 seconds. Now one extra attack with the Really Big Axe is a lot heftier than one extra attack with the Really Fast Dagger. It's just an attack, and since it's a bonus attack weapon speed doesn't matter

Generally speaking dual wield warriors go Fury with some points in Arms. If you want to tank then tactical mastery is pretty important as it lets you use all your skills while staying in Defensive Stance most of the time

[onimusha]

I was think best defense is a good offense. But you're saying that doesn't work well and that I should focus mostly on defense for tanking. Makes sense I suppose. So instead of just thinking damage, I'll think defense and damage. Thanks for the advice, I wish other people would pipe up, I'd love to hear more opinions. I'm now level 22 with no talents...

[redinter]

Basically speaking, in most parties you will be the tank (basically the guy who should get hit) and to do this role, you should use defensive stance and 1handed+shield, since with this setup you will take not only less damage, but also do more aggro, keeping the monsters on you. It is not uncommon for warriors to reduce the damage they get by 60%, doing so will help your healers having less to heal, and thus lasting longer.
When you solo, you need to do damage, since it will be no good being able to take many hits, if you do poor damage. For this warriors usually go dual wield or 2handed.

The first talents I would recommend are cruelty and parry, they will help you level faster, as you do more damage and receive less damage.

I would recommend you to read here a great guide to partying, which explains very good how WoW works http://www.phantasia4.com/ps/index.html

Notice that the role of a tank, which you will do mainly while partying, is a very important one. A tank is what makes a party, with no good tanking people will die and progress will go very slowly. An advice I can give you is think if you really will enjoy doing this, as I have known many a warrior that seems to dislike tanking, and are thus a bit frutrated with the game.

[swirly]

So nstead of just thinking damage, I'll think defense and damage.
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One thing that I think all warriors need to know is that when they are tanking, damage isn't the most important thing for them. The most important thing for a tanking warrior is threat. You don't need to maximize your damage when tanking, you need to maximize your threat. Now doing damage does give you threat and so it would seem that if you maximize your damage then you would also be maximizing your threat. There are several problems with this.

First off is the fact that there are other classes who will always be able to do more damage than you. So if you are purely trying to maximize your damage, then you will find that you won't be able to keep mobs off these classes unless they hold back. If they are having to hold back then the total damage that the group is doing is probably less that if you went for maximizing your threat which would enable them to do more damage. They may still have to hold back, but they will have to do so much less.

Another problem is that you need to tank multiple mobs. This means that the damage you do is going to be spread around more than it is with other classes. If you just focus on one mob, all the other mobs are going to go running to the healer when the first heal goes off on you. As the tank, it is your job to make sure this doesn't happen. So you have to make a point of staying on top of each mobs threat list. They need to hate you the most. This is tough to do if you are just focusing on damage. While you are spreading your damage around on all the mobs, the other damage dealers will be focusing on one mob. So now that mob will go running to one of those damage dealers. If you focus on maximizing your threat, then you are much better able to keep all the mobs hitting you. In both cases, it requires learning the balance of what you need to do to keep any extra mobs on you and what you need to do to keep the main mob on you. Its much easier when focusing on threat though.

The problem that comes up is that when soloing, threat doesn't do anything for you. So you need to be able to do damage to be able to solo effectively. Damage is also good in groups because it does add threat. My point is that you shouldn't be focusing solely on damage when in a group. You need to learn to use things like sunder armor and other skills that add alot of threat even if they may not add as much damage as other skills you could have used.

I actually don't have any recommendations for you as far as talents go, because my warrior went protection spec and was happy soloing slowly. I actually think that any talent build will be able to tank decently as long as the warrior knows when to do damage and when to do threat. So that is what I want to impart to you. When you are in a group (in instances specifically) you should pay less attention to how much damage you are doing and more attention to how much threat you are doing. Make a point of trying to keep all the mobs hitting you. When you are soloing, feel free to do as much damage as you can.

As has been said here, using a shield does make things easier when you are tanking (as does defensive stance). Since you are going to be having all the mobs hitting you, the huge defense that a shield gives makes a healer's job alot easier. Whether it is necessary or not is something I think you need to decide on your own. Watch how much damage you are taking, watch how much mana your healer has after a fight, watch how long fights are lasting...these are things that will help you judge if you need a shield or not. If fights are going quick, if you aren't taking much damage, if the healer isn't using much mana...then a shield may just slow things down. If fights are taking a while, if you are noticing your life drop in huge chunks, if the healer is having to drink after every fight...then it may be time to break out the shield. You should be able to pick up on what is needed as you play more.

[onimusha]

When I've been in parties lately, the shield has been coming out.

I find the way tanking works in WoW to be a little frustrating. In many other games, the warrior's doing the most damage, and he's got the highest defense, turning the warrior into a tank and allowing him to do lots of damage. In WoW, it's kind of painful to watch the rogue do more damage than you, even when you're dual wielding or have a 2H weapon.

I haven't played a rogue yet, but it seems as if they're simply a more powerful class in that they can do lots of damage, but their weakness for being undefended is easily compensated for by their ability to escape. Also, what works well when they solo, also works well when they're in a party. If you're saying that warriors have to split their focus, it makes them weaker in both areas.

My criticisms aside, I don't really mind being the tank, but I'm wondering what are good talents or combinations of talents, that will allow me to increase my threat. I find that when I'm going sword and shield, monsters will go after other party members who are doing more damage or casting spells.

[Kevin]

When I've been in parties lately, the shield has been coming out. 

I find the way tanking works in WoW to be a little frustrating.  In many other games, the warrior's doing the most damage, and he's got the highest defense, turning the warrior into a tank and allowing him to do lots of damage.  In WoW, it's kind of painful to watch the rogue do more damage than you, even when you're dual wielding or have a 2H weapon.

I haven't played a rogue yet, but it seems as if they're simply a more powerful class in that they can do lots of damage, but their weakness for being undefended is easily compensated for by their ability to escape.  Also, what works well when they solo, also works well when they're in a party.  If you're saying that warriors have to split their focus, it makes them weaker in both areas.

My criticisms aside, I don't really mind being the tank, but I'm wondering what are good talents or combinations of talents, that will allow me to increase my threat.  I find that when I'm going sword and shield, monsters will go after other party members who are doing more damage or casting spells.
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Take a look at This thread on these forums and the one it links to on the Blizzard forums.

Basically you want to sunder armor, revenge, and shield bash as much as you can as these skills generate high amounts of threat. Demorilazing shout generates a small amount of threat but it gives that small threat level to every target it hits.

As far as talents go, I think you can do anything you want with them and still be effective. You just have to realize that in a party your job, unless there is another warrior who is main tank, is going to be to lock down the mobs and that is best achieved through use of skill.

I personally have a protection warrior for mainly roleplay reasons honestly. There are some protection talents that help me when tanking but having played a protection warrior from L1 to L60 I've come to the conclusion that the most helpful protection tree talent is defiance. To get that you need 15 points in protection. I'm starting to believe that in 90-95% of the encounters a warrior that has 15 points in protection (for defiance and toughness) and the rest of the points in fury, arms, or both is going to be a better tank than a warrior with a lot of points in protection. Improved shield bash and concussion blow will give protection an advantage over casters and named mobs that don't have boss immunity immunity (i.e. you can stun them). Improved shiel wall will give them an advantage in some situations. Improved sunder armor may give them an advantage on holding multiple mobs because it is cheaper to use, however the right talents in arms and fury could mean the arms/fury is generating rage so much fast that it overwhelms this difference. The extra damage an arms/fury can do even in defensive stance is generally going to be more valuable to a group. The debuff from mortal strike if the warrior goes that way is very helpful when a mb that can heal is around.

So yes, a warrior plays very differently solo and as a maintank (if you are off tank or main assist it isn't that much different) because solo you want damage damage damage and as main tank you what threat threat threat (or aggro or hate, I see all three terms a lot). But any talent build can do both. You will also probably start to develop to sets of gear. One for tanking one for soloing. For tanking maximizing def and stamina is generally the best way to go. 1 defense skill is .04% block, dodge, and parry. It is also that much less chance for a mob to land a critical strike on you. My warrior is up to 414 defense in full protection gear. That adds 4.56% to my block dodge and parry and means that even mobs in molten core and onyxia herself will generally not be able to land a crit on me (the 420 - 430 range is where the Onyxia and the MC bosses will never crit you). So I have 13%+ chance to block or dodge, or parry an attack, I never get hit with a critical strike. This means that I have a chance to use revenge on mobs pretty much all the time since I will block, dodge, or parry one of their attacks while the skill is in cooldown, I get to throw out my sunder armors and shield bashes and make all the mobs that aren't crowd controlled hate me a lot. This lets the rogues, mages, warlocks, and everyone else throw out damage as fast as they want. The healer doesn't use all that much mana in keeping me alive and instances go nice and smooth.

When I solo, I use a big two hander (since it does better DPS than dual wield right now sine my one handers are still pretty poor) and a mix of +crit, +str, +agi, and +stam gear. I have some leather armor in my solo gear set since the damage reduction isn't as important as the +dodge and +crit those pieces give me. I still don't have a full solo gear set so I still have some of +def gear on, but the gear makes a difference. I wear some of my solo gear when I'm tanking lower instances to help out guild members or for some of the "trash" mobs in some of the bigger instances so that I can do more damage as long as I'm not taking more healing. I think I discover that 380 def is all you need to not get a crit on you in LBRS. I think it was 365 for all but the bosses in BRD.

[Tal]

When I've been in parties lately, the shield has been coming out. 

I find the way tanking works in WoW to be a little frustrating.  In many other games, the warrior's doing the most damage, and he's got the highest defense, turning the warrior into a tank and allowing him to do lots of damage.  In WoW, it's kind of painful to watch the rogue do more damage than you, even when you're dual wielding or have a 2H weapon.

I haven't played a rogue yet, but it seems as if they're simply a more powerful class in that they can do lots of damage, but their weakness for being undefended is easily compensated for by their ability to escape.  Also, what works well when they solo, also works well when they're in a party.  If you're saying that warriors have to split their focus, it makes them weaker in both areas.

My criticisms aside, I don't really mind being the tank, but I'm wondering what are good talents or combinations of talents, that will allow me to increase my threat.  I find that when I'm going sword and shield, monsters will go after other party members who are doing more damage or casting spells.
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I'm solely arms/fury on Shalandrax and can maintank most of the instances in the game. I've never tried to do the General but I'm fairly certain I could tank him as well. That being said I don't tank in battle stance.

You and I will never out DPS a rogue, mage or a warlock. Especially ones that are trying to hurt things more. As a dual wield warrior you will have have trouble even matching my 2 handed damage.

So what do you do? Revenge, Sunder armor, shield bash and demo shout are your friends. You can start out as much as you want in battlestance but you're going to want to be bouncing into defensive as necessary, especially on multipulls. Smack every non controlled mob to get initial hatred. Get the rage for a sunder on the primary mob. If you have a very fast one hander then save rage for cleave after that. You'll be hitting each mob with normal attacks after that and occassionally demo shouting to keep them stuck to you. Taunt is your "oh crap"skill. Don't burn it early or often. If you DO need to taunt try to follow up with Shield bash or revenge to stay on top of the hate pile.