New WoW Machine

[Drasca]

For a minor item like that, I'll just hold off and if I need it I'll hit my local CompUSA.
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Same brand, similar card, different manufacturer. I bought a LeadTek Winfast 6600GT AGP. Came with the DVI converter in spite of having a VGA available. Your XFX is a competent brand, I wouldn't be surprised if yours came with.

Unfortunately, my own card has some kinks when playing older Directx 8 games. Plays WoW great, but using the OpenGL rather than directx options (of course I swap out between this and my Geforce 4600 with no troubles since its all Nvidia drivers). Can turn up all the settings and still get decent frame rate. 12-25 fps at highest settings and local area load. Regularly gets 40-60 fps over the infamous 'wyvern/gryphon' rides too.

So end result: WoW plays great, but my leadtek 6600GT AGP doesn't work for all 3D games. YMMV. 6600GT is certainly a powerful card though. When I need directx 8 games, I shutdown, switch cards, and it auto-detects and uses the same installed nvidia driver software package for 4600 and 6600.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I'm not sure if I require aluminum, either. What I didn't think to mention earlier was that the case I picked has a MIDI/Game port in front. Since I'm using the mobo's built in port, I will need to lead it out somewhere. Now, I'd rather it was in the back, but I've found no cases set up like that. I guess I could always find a D15 connector, a header, some ribbon cable, and do it myself -- but why borrow trouble ;)

If the ones I picked out come a cropper, I'll definitely check out your suggestion. Thanks.

--Pete

[Thenryb]

As to your video card selection-I am thinking of upgrading to the 6600GT. Unfortunately, my Asus P4C800-E Deluxe Mobo does not seem to have a PCI express slot, so I would have to go with the AGP version. Has your research disclosed any substantial differences in performance between the PCI and AGP versions of that card? Mine has not, but then I don't understand much of what I read in respect to such matters. From what I can gather the PCI express version performs only slightly better.

[--Pete]

Hi,

As to your video card selection-I am thinking of upgrading to the 6600GT. Unfortunately, my Asus P4C800-E Deluxe Mobo does not seem to have a PCI express slot, so I would have to go with the AGP version. Has your research disclosed any substantial differences in performance between the PCI and AGP versions of that card? Mine has not, but then I don't understand much of what I read in respect to such matters. From what I can gather the PCI express version performs only slightly better.
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Your conclusions are completely in line with what I've read, the difference in AGP and PCI-e are minimal for now. Since the cost is also minimal, I went with the newer technology simply for potential future upgrades.

--Pete

[Dozer]

The total comes to $1126.44US.  That leaves me about $100US to play with, and I might just use it to increase the memory to 2GB.

Any comments, suggestions, etc., more than welcome.  Keep in mind the two constraints:  this is strictly a game machine and I've only budgeted $2500US for the whole deal (i.e., 1250 per machine).
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You're going to get a much more noticeable difference in performance by spending that $100 on a better video card, rather than more RAM. The reliance on the videocard in modern games, including WoW, has skyrocketed; IMHO, I would have no qualms about spending more on a video card than a processor.

That being said, (and assuming you have no problems with an ATI video card, I didn't see you say otherwise) I would reccomend this Video card/processor combination:

ATI (Sapphire) Radeon X800 XL 256 MB
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/m..._Code=ATI-PCI-E
$268 with free shipping

Athlon 64 3500+ S939
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/m...gory_Code=AMD64
$235 shipped

(Note: I looked exclusively at Monarch, it is very likely that there are better deals around for these two pieces of hardware)

That comes out to $50 more than the 3800+ and the 6600GT.


One thing I find very useful when comparing video cards is Tom's Hardware's VGA and CPU charts, which show, in general terms, how a better videocard is more beneficial than a better CPU:
VGA charts: http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/2..._charts-02.html
CPU Charts: http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041221...ts-13.html


Edit: I noticed that the CPU charts are quite dated, compared to the VGA ones, but they still give you a general idea.

Hope I could be of help :)

[Roland]

Hi,
Yep, I'm a little concerned about that PS, too.  Its specs look good with the power in the places where it's needed and all the right features.  When I googled (Rexus "power supply" review 600W), I found a few valid reviews and, except for a low +12VDC on one unit, it seem to do alright.  If I get cold feet, I might just go with the thermaltake if I can find one at the right price.  I like the company, but the PS is a little gimmicky for me with its 'front' panel and cable arrangement (I find that judicious use of cable ties arranges cables quite well enough).  Also, it is a 500W supply, a little on the low side for my taste.  The additional 160W of the Rexus might compensate for some lack of stiffness.  Since I can't find published compliance curves, I just tend to err by over specifying.

If you (or anyone else reading this post) know of a PS maker that you like, let me know.  Nothing is written in stone till the orders go in.  :)

--Pete
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Remember, if you're only using 400W, you're wasting the other 260W. And, on top of that, if the efficiency is only, say, 65%, you're blowing off a full 231W of power as waste heat! Keep this in mind when choosing a PSU.

[Roland]

Hi,

I'm not sure if I require aluminum, either.  What I didn't think to mention earlier was that the case I picked has a MIDI/Game port in front.  Since I'm using the mobo's built in port, I will need to lead it out somewhere.  Now, I'd rather it was in the back, but I've found no cases set up like that.  I guess I could always find a D15 connector, a header, some ribbon cable, and do it myself -- but why borrow trouble ;)

If the ones I picked out come a cropper, I'll definitely check out your suggestion.  Thanks.

--Pete
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Generally, you can connect the frontal ports to the motherboard. They are designed for just that. Look for an audio connection on the motherboard.

Also, what do you want out of the case? If light weight, go with aluminum. If weight doesn't matter, go with whatever is cheapest. Neither metal matters in terms of cooling - only how many fans you can put in, what size, and where.

[Roland]

Hi,
Yep, I'm a little concerned about that PS, too.  Its specs look good with the power in the places where it's needed and all the right features.  When I googled (Rexus "power supply" review 600W), I found a few valid reviews and, except for a low +12VDC on one unit, it seem to do alright.  If I get cold feet, I might just go with the thermaltake if I can find one at the right price.  I like the company, but the PS is a little gimmicky for me with its 'front' panel and cable arrangement (I find that judicious use of cable ties arranges cables quite well enough).  Also, it is a 500W supply, a little on the low side for my taste.  The additional 160W of the Rexus might compensate for some lack of stiffness.  Since I can't find published compliance curves, I just tend to err by over specifying.

If you (or anyone else reading this post) know of a PS maker that you like, let me know.  Nothing is written in stone till the orders go in.  :)

--Pete
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Thermaltake isn't bad. I've had mine for some time - not a hitch. Enermax and Cooler Master generally are a bit better, especially in the efficiency department.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Remember, if you're only using 400W, you're wasting the other 260W. And, on top of that, if the efficiency is only, say, 65%, you're blowing off a full 231W of power as waste heat! Keep this in mind when choosing a PSU.
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Sorry, but it doesn't work that way -- believe me, I've tested. As long as you are drawing enough current to regulate the output, the input power will be equal to the output power *that you are actually using* divided by the efficiency. So, using your example, if I'm using 400W at 65% efficiency, I'll be sucking 615W from the wall.

Actual efficiencies for switching power supplies are much higher than that. More like 80-90% (link and link). And the efficiency usually is best if you're using the PS at 1/3 to 2/3 of its rating. Below 1/3 and you're using proportionately too much power to regulate. Above 2/3 the PS starts running hot and that kills your efficiency (unless you want a space heater :) ).

--Pete

[Roland]

Hi,
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way -- believe me, I've tested.  As long as you are drawing enough current to regulate the output, the input power will be equal to the output power *that you are actually using* divided by the efficiency.  So, using your example, if I'm using 400W at 65% efficiency, I'll be sucking 615W from the wall.

Right. Rushed post. Sorry. I don't know what I was thinking - actually, I don't think I was. :P It's been too long of a week.

Actual efficiencies for switching power supplies are much higher than that.  More like 80-90% (link and link).  And the efficiency usually is best if you're using the PS at 1/3 to 2/3 of its rating.  Below 1/3 and you're using proportionately too much power to regulate.  Above 2/3 the PS starts running hot and that kills your efficiency (unless you want a space heater :) ).

--Pete

I don't think THG would quite agree with you, but I'm too tired and busy to bother looking it up. Maybe their measuring system is different?

Side note: 11 PM and I have to be packed and on the road in ~9 - 11 hours, tops, for my vacation. God I hate the night before. :P

[--Pete]

Hi,

Good thinking. You must have missed the post where I said I didn't care for ATI any more, but otherwise I think I agree with you.

Did some fast checking and using just pricewatch numbers, I concluded that if I got rid of the present motherboard, CPU, and video card and replaced them with:

Athlon 3500+
ASUS A8N-SLI
2 x 6600GT in SLI mode

then I would get about a 50% increase in video performance for a 5% drop in CPU performance (both numbers based on averages of game related tests from the Tom's links you supplied). And the total cost puts me just about $10 into the $50 reserve.

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

quote=Roland,Aug 11 2005, 07:01 PM]
Side note: 11 PM and I have to be packed and on the road in ~9 - 11 hours, tops, for my vacation. God I hate the night before. :P
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[/quote]
Ain't that the truth. It's been my experience that by the time you get everything settled at work and home so that you can leave for vacation, you really need one. Sort of the zero sum law of recreation :)

Have a good time, wherever you go. See you when you get back.

--Pete

P.S. {added in edit} I think I see where the efficiency issue comes from. It looks like THG measures the wattage by simply multiplying the voltage times the current. This is fine for direct current, since the two components are always in phase. But for alternating current, one must include the effect of the 'power factor'. The correct formula for AC power is voltage times current times the cosine of the phase difference between voltage and current. Only if the two are in phase will this reduce to the simpler formula. Since, IIRC, switching power supplies are an inductive load, the two *will* be out of phase. Thus, since the efficiency is power out over power in, we can calculate the phase angle from

cos(PA) = E_ignoring_phase/E_including_phase.

So a power supply which I'd call 90% efficient and which THG calls 70% efficient has a phase angle of about 40 degrees. Not an unreasonable value IIRC. However, the 90% value more truly represents what that watt meter on your wall would measure and what the power company would charge you for :)

P.P.S. Later saw that THG *is* taking the phase angle into account, but the power factor (cosine of the phase shift) they seem to get is more like .97 than the .8 to .5 of highly inductive (or capacitive) loads. So, for the time being, I'm puzzled. However, I will probably go with a PS that has a better pedigree and lower nominal wattage (say, about 500W if at least 450 of them are in the 3.3 5, and 12 lines).

[Concillian]

Hi,

"And the winners are . . . "
CPU:
Athlon 64 3800+ (Socket 939)
$310.00
http://store.yahoo.com/pcmemory-stores/c...64939.html

Video:
eVGA GeForce 6600 GT / 128MB DDR / PCI Express / DVI / TV-OUT / Video Card
$152.00
http://www.bestbargainpc.com/index.asp?Pag...ROD&ProdID=3141
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An odd pairing for me to see, generally games these days are far less dependent on CPU than GPU.

For example, I run WoW on a 3000+ that can overclock to 2.4GHz without issues. I can't tell the difference between WoW at 1.8GHz and WoW at 2.4GHz. I've settled on an in-between point of 2.16 GHz while undervolting it some as a nice balance of CPU power and wall power usage.

However, I definitely know the difference between the video cards I've used (9700Pro, x800 Pro and x800XL). WoW is far more limited by the video card than the CPU.

You can see here what I mean:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2381&p=5

Notice the numbers and that they are testing at low resolutions. When I'm using my x800XL at 1600x1200 my average is well below that (40-55FPS range), which means my CPU is largely a non-gating item. My own experiences confirm the information in the review that suggests CPU is less important than video card for WoW.

This is also the case with almost every other game out there. Until you get into the VERY high end video cards, CPU speed is virtually irrelevant. Games are almost forced to be coded this way, because it is quite difficult to scale the things that a CPU is required to do (AI, physics, kind of all or nothing things) so they have to program for the 'lowest common denominator' within reason. Graphics, on the other hand are very easy to scale by changing resolution, settings, texture sizes and quality, etc...

I alluded to this in my first post in the thread:

Even though AMD is my preference, the differences between processor brands will largely be totally indistinguishable. CPU is rarely a bottleneck in modern games.

But didn't go into detail.

Personally, if these are truly machines built primarily for games, I would (well, and did) funnel some of the CPU budget into the Video Card and go with a 3200+ or so while moving up to an x800XL or 6800GT.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I agree with you. See this post and my reply. I had overlooked the potential for SLI, and it is big. :)

Thanks for the input, that's why I started this thread -- there's a whole lot more knowledge in Lounge than in most any five computer stores I can think of ;)

--Pete

[Quark]

Did some fast checking and using just pricewatch numbers, I concluded that if I got rid of the present motherboard, CPU, and video card and replaced them with:

Athlon 3500+
ASUS A8N-SLI
2 x 6600GT in SLI mode

then I would get about a 50% increase in video performance for a 5% drop in CPU performance (both numbers based on averages of game related tests from the Tom's links you supplied).  And the total cost puts me just about $10 into the $50 reserve.
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6600GT is quite enough for WoW by itself. If you wanted to, I'd actually recommend getting the SLI motherboard, but don't get the 2nd video card yet. Buy them when they're cheaper :)

[--Pete]

Hi,

6600GT is quite enough for WoW by itself.  If you wanted to, I'd actually recommend getting the SLI motherboard, but don't get the 2nd video card yet.  Buy them when they're cheaper :)
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Probably a good idea overall. However, WoW isn't the only game I play (or intend to play), so the added video capacity will probably find some use. Besides, if I wait, the 6600 GT might go away. Since SLI needs two *identical* cards, there's a chance that I'd miss out. And, finally, part of this exercise is to make the best game computer for around $1200 - $1250. I'm not sure where the $150 or so that I could save by getting only one card would otherwise better be spent.

--Pete

[Concillian]

Hi,

I agree with you.  See this post and my reply.  I had overlooked the potential for SLI, and it is big. :)

Thanks for the input, that's why I started this thread -- there's a whole lot more knowledge in Lounge than in most any five computer stores I can think of ;)

--Pete
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Generally 1x 6800GT > 2x6600GT. The 6600GTs start to struggle at high res with low memory bandwidth and the only reason to want more than 1x6600GT at this point is to be faster at high res.

Also it doesn't seem to have a huge impact on WoW specifically:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzkzLDg=

Just like EverQuest II, we did not see a large performance increase with two 6800s in SLI over a single 6800 in this game. A single MSI GeForce 6800 played best at 1280x1024 with no AA and 16XAF. Unfortunately, when we put two cards in an SLI configuration, we simply did not see a big performance improvement. 2XAA at 1280x1024 was barely playable with the SLI configuration. Like EverQuest II, the single GeForce 6800 GT is faster than the 6800 SLI configuration.

They have other SLI articles, but the 6800 was the closest to a 6600GT that had an SLI test for WoW.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Well, it's in the mail (or, more likely, in UPS or FedEx). What I ended up ordering is somewhat different from the first cut choices I posted last week. Most of those changes were made because of your comments and suggestions. And for that I thank you all very much, these will be much better computers for your input. So, here's the parts list, comments follow:

OS:
Windows XP Home w/SP2
2 at $81.00 Total: $162.00
http://www.bestbargainpc.com/index.asp?P...tegory=230

Case:
Skyhawk AL-ATX4377DT-BK All Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Case, Black
2 at $34.99 Total: $69.98
http://www.dealsonic.com/sk43allalatx.html

PS:
Thermaltake Silent PurePower ATX 12V 2.0 Plus EPS (W0049)
2 at $140.00 Total: $280.00
http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=PS-W0049&c=pw

Mobo:
ASUS A8N-E
2 at $112.00 Total: $224.00
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDet...pricewatch

CPU:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+
2 at $218.00 Total: $436.00
http://store.yahoo.com/pcmemory-stores/c...64939.html

CPU cooler:
ThermalTake CL-P0075 AMD Athlon 64 FX55 939pin CPU Cooler W/Heatpipe
2 at $34.00 Total: $68.00
http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=FAN-CLP075&c=pw

Memory:
Kingston KIN-KVR400X64C3A/512 400MHz DDR (2 sticks for 1 GB)
4 at $47.49 Total: $189.96
http://www.3gplaza.com/estore/control/Co...s?id=31822

Video:
AOpen Geforce 6800GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card
2 at $299.00 Total: $598.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...rds#DetailSpecs

HD:
Western Digital 160GB SATA 7200rpm 8MB OEM WD1600JD
4 at $69.00 Total: $276.00
http://www.bestbargainpc.com/index.asp?P...=GO&Page=1

DVD-RW:
NEC ND-3520A
2 at $47.00 Total: $94.00
http://www.bestbargainpc.com/index.asp?Pag...ROD&ProdID=2928

Floppy:
Sony 1.44 FLOPPY W/BLACK BAZEL
2 at $8.50 Total: $17.00
http://www.bestbargainpc.com/index.asp?P...rodID=1479

S&H from Best Bargin PC: $4.90
S&H from Deal sonic: $23.29

Total spent: $2,443.13
Surplus from $2500: $56.87 (Just enough for some Scotch to lubricate the assembly process :)

OS: I could have done better here if I'd bought one without the 'Certificate of Authenticity', but I figure the software pirating countries are doing well enough without my infinitesimal aid. ;)

PS: Following the good advice of Roland, and after looking at the abysmal performance of many power supplies tested at THG, I bit the bullet and paid almost 50% more for a PS that will (I hope) do the job.

Mobo: After waffling back and fourth between SLI and non-SLI motherboards, I went for the non-SLI after deciding to go with a single video card (more under 'Video' below). Because I tend not to mess with stable systems, the potential for expansion just wasn't really worth it.

CPU: Dropping from the 3800+ to the 3500+ freed up almost $90 which I used to beef up the PS and video. The performance hit was minimal (thanks to Dozer, Quark, and Concillian for that discussion).

CPU cooler: Minor change that saved a couple of bucks. Besides, I couldn't find the CL-P0200 again when I went to buy it. Necessity's a mother ;)

Memory: This may eventually get upgraded, in spite of what I said above.

Video: Going from the 6600 to the 6800 was quite a hit in the wallet and soaked up he savings on the CPU. Thanks to the input from Concillian, I revisited the video card game data on THG. I was ready to go the 2x6600 SLI mode, but closer examination makes me think that the single 6800 route is better for the games I play.

HD: Decided to go the RAID 0 route after all. Two of these drives give me about 20GB more than the single Seagate for $15 per system less. While RAID 0 does not seem to improve game performance, neither should it hurt it. Sorry, Concillian. I guess this is one time when I'll have to get bitten before I become shy. :)

As always, comments, etc., appreciated. But remember, these decisions have now been cast in the stone of shipping and restocking fees. After everything gets here, I'll make one or more posts about how things have gone and are going.

--Pete

[jahcs]

Good luck with the build. You should have 2 solid systems there, once you scrounge up mice, keyboards, speakers, and displays.

SLI is a neat toy/sales gimmick/bragging right but with the latest generations of video hardware out there one of the newer cards is usually better than 2 older ones, for monetary and software support reasons (shader models, etc.)

One small nit on the SLI choice, if you had gotten one mobo that supports SLI then you could cobble an SLI system together from these parts if later down the road 2 computers weren't needed (since you will have 2 identical video cards).

I don't see it but does your CPU or aftermarket CPU cooler come with thermal paste? Not a showstopper, just a quick run to the store if they don't include it.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Good luck with the build.  You should have 2 solid systems there, once you scrounge up mice, keyboards, speakers, and displays.

Going to use our old Samsung 17" monitors until we see a LCD that we can't live without. As for the rest, all our 'external' gear is either pretty new or in good condition.

One small nit on the SLI choice, if you had gotten one mobo that supports SLI then you could cobble an SLI system together from these parts if later down the road 2 computers weren't needed (since you will have 2 identical video cards).

The *only* way to have harmony between married gamers is to have *exactly* the same system ;)

I don't see it but does your CPU or aftermarket CPU cooler come with thermal paste?  Not a showstopper, just a quick run to the store if they don't include it.
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Thanks for the heads up. I've had a jar of top grade thermal paste for years. If it has finally gone dry (hasn't happened for twenty or so years), Frys is only a ten minute drive away. :)

--Pete