What are the Classes FOR?

[NotSoDarklord]

With the right build, Warlock DPS is huge and is very hard to top (I've actually pulled a fire giant now twice right near where the fire giant was about to drop in MC and this is with the tanking going solo on the fire giant till around the 97% health mark and with Salvation up).
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Not quite sure what you meant to point out here, because it's not hard to steal aggro if that is infact your intent (and that's true for just about any class)

<attempt to avoid a discussion that turns to "you need better tanks>

[Skandranon]

A hunter would go to Geddon and place himself outside of his aggro range. Then a warlock would create a portal for the hunter inside of Garr's room. The hunter would not click on accept but instead fire a shot at Geddon and then click accept.

IIRC, the accept button now disappears the moment you're in combat.

Regarding mages and Molten Core. Yes, fire mages may not be wisest move in Molten Core.
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You're not reading. Of course fire mages aren't good in MC; no one expects that. When Arcane mages and, most importantly, Frost mages aren't any good in MC, that's an issue.

[andrewlt]

My main char is a frost mage and I have to say that mage DD really blows. It just doesn't scale well once you get past arond level 40 and with caster itemization in the end-game. Resists in MC to just about everything are too high. My frostbolt gets resisted quite a bit by mobs.

It's a big problem for mages that we are mostly AoE specialists with bad single target damage. AoE isn't needed much in raid instances. If Blizzard releases furture 5-15 instances where you need to AoE, it's going to become ultra-dangerous to use AoE spells. Mages aren't getting much armor and stamina from endgame gear and you're still forced to make huge tradeoffs between survivability and damage. If Blizzard release future small instances, it'll be designed for more geared up people and I don't see mages surviving using AoE that much.

As for pulling aggro, it's impossible to pull aggro off a good warrior by just doing dps once 2 conditions are satisfied. 1.)The mob has no aggro wipe abilities like knockback. 2.)You give the warrior 8-seconds to gain aggro. Conquest tried it with Itzlegend against Golemagg. A hunter even tried spamming distracting shot and couldn't get aggro.

Of course, the problem is that aggro-making abilities aren't based on damage so it's going to be harder and harder for warriors to keep aggro in later instances unless Blizzard does something.

[Lissa]

Not quite sure what you meant to point out here, because it's not hard to steal aggro if that is infact your intent (and that's true for just about any class)&nbsp;

<attempt to avoid a discussion that turns to "you need better tanks>
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Usually the reason it happens in a string of crits. As you know, Warlock crits tend to be the highest in the game (the only thing that crits higher is full rage Executes). It's not that I'm trying to take agro, it just happens due to strangeness of the PRNG when you combine Curse of Shadow/Elements and Shadowbolt/Immolation-Conflagration.

The point was to show that Warlock DPS is not low, but in fact quite high.

[Lissa]

This is how Baron Geddon can be pulled into the room where Garr normally resides. Actually our regular MC raid had difficulties doing this because we overlooked a minor detail. You still have to remove two of the mob groups in front of Geddon before you can attempt this. Because of this one of our hunters had the following idea:

Ob. Strat.:

A hunter would go to Geddon and place himself outside of his aggro range. Then a warlock would create a portal for the hunter inside of Garr's room. The hunter would not click on accept but instead fire a shot at Geddon and then click accept.

That is the theory. :) We do not actually know if this would work, because we finally figured out how to get Geddon the boring way. :) I think when the hunter portals he loses aggro. But I'm not sure of this... The idea is so crazy that it could actually work.

now to a completely different topic:

Regarding mages and Molten Core. Yes, fire mages may not be wisest move in Molten Core. On the other hand I do not think that Molten Core is the end game. I believe that MC is just the first of the big raid dungeon instances that will comprise the future end game of WoW. I'm not counting Blackwing Lair, because Blackwing Lair is obviously not finished.

-Arnulf
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Won't work. Moment you're in combat, Summon breaks. This was done for the exact reason you stated, people pulling mobs without fear of the mobs doing something unexpected (this tactic was used a lot to pull the various groups in the General's room across the bridge using a Rogue, Blizzard saw this and put a stop to it).

[KiloVictor]

This is how Baron Geddon can be pulled into the room where Garr normally resides. Actually our regular MC raid had difficulties doing this because we overlooked a minor detail. You still have to remove two of the mob groups in front of Geddon before you can attempt this.
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Ob. Strat: You don't need to clear any lava packs to engage Geddon. You can have a hunter stand just at the entrance to Shazz's room and pull Geddon past the lava packs to a pet controlled by a second hunter. The pulling hunter feigns death as Geddon approaches, Geddon aggros on the second hunter's pet, and hunter #2 draws Geddon back into Garr's room for a summary beatdown.

Sometimes hunter #1 will pull a lava pack along with Geddon, at which point he has to feign and tell the second hunter to abort the pull. But two good hunters can bring Geddon past the lava packs without aggroing them.

Kv

[KiloVictor]

As for pulling aggro, it's impossible to pull aggro off a good warrior by just doing dps once 2 conditions are satisfied. 1.)The mob has no aggro wipe abilities like knockback. 2.)You give the warrior 8-seconds to gain aggro. Conquest tried it with Itzlegend against Golemagg. A hunter even tried spamming distracting shot and couldn't get aggro.
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I've seen warlocks pull aggro from off-tanked Molten Giants/Destroyers often.

Popping Curse of Doom and a dot or two on the mob before moving on to the main target is a great way to begin the last sixty seconds of your current life in MC.

Kv

[Drasca]

it's not hard to steal aggro if that is infact your intent

Oh so very true. I had a post pointing that out, but decided bragging equip was a bad idea. Looks like I can't avoid it though.

the only thing that crits higher is full rage Executes
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Executes aren't. Several legitimate 5k-10k sb crits around, all depending whether there's a buff available on the lock.

Frost mages aren't any good in MC, that's an issue.

My damage meters show my favorite frost mage regularly competes for #1 damage overall, or per boss. The #1 position rotates as people die and on a case by case basis. Hunters often go #1 for certain encounters too, or rogues, heck even warriors. Every dog has his day when all are well equipped, specced and trained. #1 slot might as well be decided by musical chairs between all our major damage do'ers.

IIRC, Lissa's lock is in the first tier +dmg range. While I do not have ruin, I do have far more +dam equip than lissa when I choose to put it on. I think that's a better comparison of high end damage.

0-200: Being +damage without sacrificing any stats, but not usually having a whole lot of great equip to begin with. You're competive with epic equipment as you approach 200.
200-400: Minor stat sacrifice, as cannot max certain stats. Extremely competitive with epic level equipment / weaponary. As good as you can get without sacrificing stats. Commit a lot of steady damage so long as you don't crit and / or Ruin too often. Will pull aggro with unlucky crits, and Ruin makes it worse.
400-660+: Untread theoretical territory, built on possible items out there. Stat sacrifices, but major potential damage. Unimaginable height of power.

I'm at tier 2 with +350. Note, full warlord or tier 2/3 Warlock epic sets give approx 200-300 damage upon completion. Set items have very nicely balanced stats, but for full +damage output, other items are superior and generally difficult to achieve. Tier 2 is extremely competitive with my fellows. It generally blows away people with non-epics vs single targets, but that's to be expected. However, there's still the occasional mage or rogue that simply outputs more damage without use of epics. Not sure how but they manage.

Conclusion: Everyone does obscene damage that's fairly equivalent to each other when equipped and specced for it. It varies from encounter to encounter, but overall everyone gets their day. The damage output abilities are balanced via better equipment and encounter types.

[andrewlt]

Hint: Mages will always be no. 1 in damage after Magmadar because of the core packs. If you reset it after that, mages will always be outdpsed by good rogues and will be a little lower on average compared to hunters and dps wars.

[acidjax]

In the raids I attended with my rogue (full combat), I've never been outdamaged by a mage. However, mages tend to require considerably less healing and can also decurse.

In MC, I think straight damage isn't as important as damage per healing needed and overall damage due to survivability. Although damage can help speed up the fights, most encounters can be fought for as long as healing can be provided.

[Drasca]

In MC, I think straight damage isn't as important as damage per healing needed and overall damage due to survivability.
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Incorrect. You have the accidental aggro steal, but those are rare for vets. You're either a tank intentionally being damaged, or taking incidental damage while doing playing your role--which can be bandaged in half the encounters. In both cases, taking getting nicked while shaving is part of the job.

You don't see all warrior MC raids, now do you? For the golemagg encounter in particular, there are three tanks, several healer rotations, and the rest of us go straight out damage after our warriors grab aggro because dps classes simply aren't hit with anything lethal.

Survivability means nothing when death is certain if you're hit by the main boss (ok, survived golemagg once or twice, but that's the exception rather than the dozen other times he's stomped me to death), and you're never hit by anything lethal, nothing that'll actually kill you.

Once you're above the threshold of survivability, you'd focus on dps and getting the encounter done faster (and safer on resources).

I learned just how important doing more damage in the golemagg encounter was when one time we wiped at 2-7% and I only did 30-40k damage. F-that. Next round, I swapped equipment around, and 50-70k damage. Over 50% more. That's just the oomph we needed. I'm sure others refined their techniques too, but I felt personal pride and accomplishment for doing the dps needed.

[acidjax]

Incorrect. You have the accidental aggro steal, but those are rare for vets. You're either a tank intentionally being damaged, or taking incidental damage while doing playing your role--which can be bandaged in half the encounters. In both cases, taking getting nicked while shaving is part of the job.

What I meant was moreso the fact that some damage dealers take more damage in the fight, while never getting agro of the mob. Classes like hunters, mages, and warlocks don't get hit by point blank AoE. Or, in other cases melee are forced to be bunched up to deal damage (Gehennas) and can get hit more often to other AoE effects.

While I have a 60 rogue, I also have a 60 priest. I know that when I'm playing a priest that I have to heal rogues much more then ranged dps. The "blast radius" damage often occurs more frequently then bandages can keep up. Damage meters consistantly show combat rogues at the top of the charts for damage dealt. They also show rogues at the top for damage taken (behind the MTs of course). A rogue might deal 50% more damage then a hunter yet take over triple the damage.

I mention rogues a lot in these types of discussions because they're so extreme.

Survivability means nothing when death is certain if you're hit by the main boss

Death is never certain and some classes may rarely (if ever) grab agro while the MT is still up like hunters for example.

Once you're above the threshold of survivability, you'd focus on dps and getting the encounter done faster (and safer on resources).

That's true but it doesn't change that more damage per less healing can result in a higher consistency of success.

From what I've experienced, a general rule in the raid encounters thus far is that you can keep fighting until you run out of healing and not when you run out of damage (since almost every class can take a damage dealer role). That's why raids would prefer having 8 priests and 3 rogues to 8 rogues and 3 priests.

[Drasca]

That's why raids would prefer having 8 priests and 3 rogues to 8 rogues and 3 priests.
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Ahaha. Yes, you'd have no arguement from me at that preference. Rogues are unfortunately fairly mind numbingly boring time. Having one friend lend me his rogue a few times, I can see why that's the case PvE.

Usually though, when our rogues are hit (or know they will take damage), run away outside of blast radius to bandage. Sure the damage is intermittent, but that saves lifeblood.

Its overall damage that counts, and they know it. Useless if they die or waste healing.

Death is never certain

Ah, I assumed tank went down. At that point, death is certain. Then its a matter of attrition until another tank grabs aggro (if its even possible) and either you or your enemy boss dies.

[Chesspiece_face]

PALADIN: secondary healer/buffer/debuffer.  Was this Blizzard's intention?  Why does Paladin gear seem to shift from tank-like bonuses to caster-like bonuses as they get higher in level?  Was this because Blizzard realized over time that they couldn't make these guys be super-tankish and keep game balance?

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In my paladin related meanderings I happened across this post on the official WoW forums that, for me, sums up the class and it's inherant issues sucinctly:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post324520

Not that we could ever hope for this to happen.

edit: this was written before the addition of HoW and as such doesn't take said addition into consideration.

[Zippyy]

Wonderfully worded, you really hit the nail with my head. Ouch!

It's a miracle I've made it as far as I have as a warlock.

Oh, you mentioned something about pets. When do we get pets?

:whistling: