What are the Classes FOR?

[Concillian]

Paladins: Ugh. They are very powerful leveling to level 60 and can take elites way above their level so people think they are overpowered. They are extremely broken endgame, however. Arguably, they bring more than shamans to MC/Onyxia because of their blessings. However, most paladins might as well by played by a bot. Casting blessings every 5 minutes and spamming cleanse is mostly what they do. OOC ressing and backup healing do require some thought but blessings and cleansings still dominate their time.
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I don't think it's arguable. Pallies are pretty powerful in raiding compared to shaman.

1) Blessing of Salvation -- this blessing alone affords SO MUCH margin for error compared to horde. 30% less threat is a HUGE amount.

2) Cleanse is way better in raiding than Purge. Horde have to rely on priests to dispel, which is compounded by the 'not enough priests' issue.

Shaman offer mana tide, which is of pretty good use, but the extra mana is not as usable without Blessing of Salvation. Pallies bring more to the table in endgame raiding.

In a raid situation, it's a good thing to split roles further, but it does bring the boredom factor into account. You can think of being a cleanse-bot as removing utility from a priest, and making their job easier. Their role is very important. Shaman have nowhere near the utility, and are more just there as a tertairy healer class, totems offer far less utility than blessings and cleanse. Mana Tide is the only 'must have' raiding totem, and it requires so many relatively low-usefulness talents to get there it's ridiculous.

[Kevin]

Mana Tide is the only 'must have' raiding totem, and it requires so many relatively low-usefulness talents to get there it's ridiculous.
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Oh how true is that? The shaman restoration tree sucks. It looks OK on paper for some of the talents but it's really a lot like the priest holy tree. Natures swiftness is cool but not as cool as it is for a druid since it's a 1357 to 1561 heal for a shaman vs a 1890 to 2230 heal for a druid that you are instant casting. Though both of those should have some talents to make them better. Mana tide is nice but requires 10 points in crappy talents.

* Improved healing wave simply puts healing wave in line with the paladins blessing of light.

* Tidal focus is one of the good talents

* Ancestral healing is the priests inspiration talent and is of minimal benefit for both classes.

* Improved Reincarnate only helps if you are going to wipe a lot and the improvement is as actually less valuable than the Paladins revelation talent.

* Totemic Focus is OK but nothing to write home about.

* Eventide is pretty much pointless since the two totems it buffs are very weak anyway but is required for mana tide (it's required for improved mana spring which is required for mana tide)

* Combat endurance is pointless. 10% continued health regen is nothing.

* Improved lesser healing wave gets you 75% chance to not be interrupted on your short cast heal. It helps solo, it helps very little in raids or party where the shaman is not likely to be getting hit if they are doing a lot of healing.

* Improved Healing Stream - I think this takes the highest rank of this poor totem from 14 to 17 health every 2 seconds from the totem. This is just a very poor blessing of sanctuary really as 17 health every 2 seconds isn't realy healing it's more of a damage mitigation type deal.

* Tidal Mastery is good. 5% more crit on your heals and lightning spells is nice.

* Improved Mana Spring. Required for mana tide. Goes from 10 to 12 mana every 2 seconds for 22 seconds (12 +10 from eventide) to those in the totem range. Blessing of wisdom destroys this as does the improved blessing of wisdom talent. Besides it's a water totem and you will use mana tide over this anyway.

* Natures Swiftness. Very good talent but as mentioned not as good for a shaman as a druid.

* Purification. 10% better heal spells since you are this deep in the tree is not a bad talen. But you are 25 points in to get it.

* Mana tide totem. 140 mana every 3 seconds for 12 seconds to all in 20 yards is a good totem. This is a better talent than Holy Nova and is good enough to get people to get the other crappy talents in the tree. But again there are other opportunity costs to getting this talent. No improved windfurry or even the ability to pary (yes shaman have to spec to get parry, 21 points into enhancement). No elemental fury which is what really makes shaman rough in PvP because it does huge things to your shock crits. So not only do you take a bunch of bad healing talents on a class that is your #3 healing choice for hord but you give up some other very powerful talents to get it.


So yeah, shaman have things to complain about for end game PvE as well. :)

[andrewlt]

I agree about shamans in end-game raids. The way their skills are created make the class not that important in end-game raids. Earthshock and frostshock are overpowered in PvP, imo, but raid enemies are all immune to them. Shamans have tons of spells I consider too powerful in PvP that every single raid enemy is immune too. I wouldn't mind Blizzard giving them more raid utility, a BoS equivalent is badly needed for Horde in BWL especially, at the expense of their very powerful PvP abilities.

[Concillian]

I think the main problem with a restoration shaman is that there are two pretty key talents:
Natures Swiftness and Mana Tide.

To get both of these with only 31 talent points requires you to forego 6 of 10 points in the two pretty crucial skills Improved Lesser Healing Wave (+15% uninterruption on the Shaman's "flash" heal per point) and Purification (+2% healing per talent point)

So if you want mana tide + nature's swiftness + Imp. Lesser + Restoration in a Restoration build you have to spend 37 points :blink: .

This is where a priest rocks. 17 points in holy (2/2 in Imp Flash Heal) and you have almost all of the utility you need in endgame raid healing and endgame PvP healing.

It would be nice to see them unhinge some of the low utility talents so that a 31 point restoration shammy healer makes sense.

[Kevin]

I think the main problem with a restoration shaman is that there are two pretty key talents:
Natures Swiftness and Mana Tide.

To get both of these with only 31 talent points requires you to forego 6 of 10 points in the two pretty crucial skills Improved Lesser Healing Wave (+15% uninterruption on the Shaman's "flash" heal per point) and Purification (+2% healing per talent point)

So if you want mana tide + nature's swiftness + Imp. Lesser + Restoration in a Restoration build you have to spend 37 points  :blink: .

This is where a priest rocks.  17 points in holy (2/2 in Imp Flash Heal) and you have almost all of the utility you need in endgame raid healing and endgame PvP healing.

It would be nice to see them unhinge some of the low utility talents so that a 31 point restoration shammy healer makes sense.
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Crap I missed that too. My shaman isn't going restoration so I didn't look real close at the tree. I just know that Treesh is really not happy with it on Mogo and I have looked some at it and played with a few shaman so I figured I'd give my assesment. So yeah not only do you give up choice talents in the other tree you give up the other good restoration talents.

[Skandranon]

WARRIOR: main tank.  This is the classical tank archetype and it does the job.  Clearly Blizzard's intention.

Yes.

Warriors are excellent party leaders and can control the pace all by themselves.

No. True before MC and 40-man raids, false afterwards.

Or rather, if your warriors are controlling the pace there's an issue. Pulling with warriors in 40 man raids is highly inadvisable. Their job is to lock mobs down, period.

PRIEST: main healer/debuffer.  Blizzard did a good job of making the Priest the "best" overall healer, but by a slim enough margin that other healing classes are not marginalized.  This was clearly their intention - to avoid there being only one healing solution in the game.  Else, they would have given Priests the ability to cure poisons, remove curses, and resurrect in combat.

Agree. Priests are obviously excellent healers, but not massively superior.

DRUID: secondary healer.  I still don't have enough Druid experience to determine if it's the un-viability of non-healing Druids that forces them into the healing role end-game, or simply because since they can heal pretty well it's what people want them to do because there's always a shortage of healers.  Ever see a bear or cat form Druid in raids?

I think secondary healer detracts somewhat from the druid's role. Yes, they are not priests, but they are definitely primary healers. As for the rest of their capabilities, I will not leak a strat, but there will come a time when one might not want to forget the druid's ability to go bearform. Also: innervate.

PALADIN: secondary healer/buffer/debuffer.

Unfortunately, yes. Not to say that they don't do it decently well, but most people who play pallies didn't sign up for this.

HUNTER: ...DPS?  Something tells me that Blizzard never quite had a handle on this class.

Your commentary is mostly accurate for instances up to UBRS and not accurate for 40 man raid zones. I know myself how hard it was to believe that hunters were supposed to be "the best puller" before I entered MC. But there's nothing like MC to demonstrate the pure capability of a hunter with enough skill.

Hunters are the best pullers in the game. Feign, disengage, distracting shot, and eyes of the beast give them the ability to pull mobs in whatever combination they choose, and multiple hunters working in concert can turn even the messiest groups into an orderly series of small, controlled fights. The upcoming Wyvern Sting will only add to this incredibly critical ability.

Oh yeah. Highest/second highest sustained ranged DPS.

MAGE: AE damage king/crowd control.  Not the ultimate single-target damager, which deservedly belongs to classes that have to get up close and personal to do damage; however, against multiple targets, the Mage rules.

Mages, right now, are quite weak in the end game. The fact that the majority of the boss fights in MC would probably go smoother if you brought zero mages is just one of the points. I'm not arguing the capability of the mage, exactly, so much as the fact that the way the end game encounters are designed massively marginalizes the mage's best points.

Polymorph, one of the things people point to as powerful for a mage, is one such point. Before raid instances, polymorph is gold. Refreshable, ranged, long-term CC. However, in MC, poly is useless in all trash pulls and useful in one out of ten boss fights. It's slightly handier in Blackwing Lair, but not that much.

AoE damage, the other area of mage specialization, is of similarly limited application. Onyxia whelps. Flame Imps. Core hound packs. Firelords. These are it for when you might want AoE damage, and you don't actually need AoE damage for at least two of those four situations - it's just something for the mages to do while they're there.

A good ninety percent of a mage's time is spent pressing one button. On most pulls the button is either frostbolt or arcane missiles. On cursing bosses the button is Remove Lesser Curse. When mages are doing damage, they're doing a) the least/second-least damage of all damage-dealing classes, and doing it B) in the least efficient manner of all damage-dealing classes. And when they're decursing, they're no better than druids - actually, druids are better since they bring innervates and extra healing.

WARLOCK: DPS/utility.  Warlocks have so much utility it's crazy. 

Most powerful PvE class in the game, bar none. Again, this is partly a mix of capability and encounter design. Whereas everything in MC is immune to Polymorph, a great many targets are susceptible to Banish. The Warlock's highest-damage attack spell, Shadowbolt, is also not naturally highly resisted like the mage's highest-damage attack spell, Fireball. Along with the curse, you find excellent sustainability and a damage rate that surpasses every class but rogues.

Healthstones, soulstones, summons...the rest you've all heard before.

[Bolty]

As for the rest of their capabilities, I will not leak a strat...[right][snapback]86335[/snapback][/right]

Wow. Just, wow.

-Bolty

[Walkiry]

As for the rest of their capabilities, I will not leak a strat...

Wow. Just, wow.

-Bolty
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You know, I thought he had to mean something like "they're nothing worth pissing yourself for" or something like that, and didn't catch some English double meaning or slang or something. But with your reply I think my first parsing was correct. Heh.

[lfd]

Wow.  Just, wow.

-Bolty
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I'm glad I wasn't the only person who thought that on reading that phrase. :huh:

[Skandranon]

I'm glad I wasn't the only person who thought that on reading that phrase. :huh:
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Huh? Clearly, the rest of you are reading something into that phrase that I didn't intend.

EDIT: To clarify. I'm trying to strike a balance between providing useful information and respecting the wishes of the strategy originator, who has expressed a desire for the specific details of the strategy to remain secret. Is there something wrong with the way I did it?

[Tuftears]

Rule of thumb, when you've been asked to keep something secret, don't hint about it! It teases people and makes people think you can't keep a secret.

[Carl]

Bolty, I think you draw a useful distinction between PvP and PvE but I think you also need to distinguish between 5 man PvE and 40 man raid groups like MC and Onyxia. Obviously 10-20 man raids fall somewhere inbetween. You also need to think about the different roles within a group and how each class can fill them but here goes:-

Warrior
Tank, obviously and pretty much essential in 5 man and raid situations. I think this class is working as expected and pretty much as blizzard wanted.

Priest
Primary healer, obviously and again working pretty much as envisaged by both Blizzard and the players. As per warrior pretty much essential in both 5 man and raid end game PvE content.

Druid
Secondary healer or secondary tank in 5 man. Yes I know there are lots of druids who claim to have primary tanked or primary healed in a 5 man but I bet it was in a very experienced group and with top end gear. In any case, you wouldn't chose a druid as healer above a priest or as tank above a warrior. In a raid the class has massive utility thanks to the buffs, heals and being able to secondary tank when needed. Very powerful class PvE generally and always wanted in any raid. Also wanted 5 man so long as you already have a warrior and priest. The druid can be both secondary tanks and secondary healer as needed and when those roles aren't needed he can dish out some useful DPS as well. On my server most druids are forced into a healing role only due to lack of preists.

Rogue
Primary meleee DPS with some utility in 5 man (stun). Limited in MC due to high damage of enemies, immunity to stun and AoE (fire) damage. Personally I think mages are superior in 5 man though I agree mages need some work in MC, this is actually due to high fire resistance of most mobs and nothing to do with the mage per se.

Paladin
Broken, I agree. Not really necessary for any 5 man content though handy to have along if you already have the main roles (Tank, healer, DPS) covered. I think for an all rounder most parties would prefer a Druid to a Pally in a 5 man instance. In raid content the pally is reduced to being a buff bot and with short duration buffs I am guessing this is pretty tedious, at least most of the Pallies in my guild seem to think so. A Pally can tank a 5 man instance but lacks the aggro control abilities of the warrior to be really good at it. Interestingly, in our guild if we do not have enough warriors to tank every mob in MC we usually ask Druids to go bear form and tank in preference to Paladins. That said the Pally is a pretty good secondary tank and secondary healer for a 5 man, just not as good as a druid but at least there are more of them!

Mage
Working as intended, except for in MC and this is the fault of MC, not the mage. Firstly, all mobs there are immune to sheep and secondly they have high resistance to fire, which is most mages first choice for DPS. This kind of limits the options to the mage to pressing either frost bolt (if frost specced) or spamming arcane missiles, neither of which is much fun. Generally in MC mages end up pretty far down the DPS list. 5 man is a completely different story and I think the mage excels at 5 man DPS and is preferrable to a rogue for this purpose. Firstly, Sheep > Sap because sheep can be applied in combat. Secondly, rogue has higher single target DPS but must risk meless combat to apply it and thirdly mage has the option of AoE which rogue does not have.

Warlock
Essential utility (banish, summon, soulstones). Better DPS than mages in MC though elsewhere not. In general I think Warlocks are working pretty much as intended. Their DPS may need toning down a little though in general I think it is the mage that is too weak rather than the warlock too strong.

Shaman
Can't comment as never played horde side (yet)!

~J

[Lissa]

Warlock
Essential utility (banish, summon, soulstones). Better DPS than mages in MC though elsewhere not. In general I think Warlocks are working pretty much as intended. Their DPS may need toning down a little though in general I think it is the mage that is too weak rather than the warlock too strong.
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Sorry, but dead wrong on Warlock DPS. I routinely out DPS just about everyone with a few exceptions (Frost Mages wearing nothing but +damage/frost gear, Arcane Mages that have nothing but +damage/arcane gear and get to AE a lot, and Combat Rogues) and I'm not fully in all +damage gear. With the right build, Warlock DPS is huge and is very hard to top (I've actually pulled a fire giant now twice right near where the fire giant was about to drop in MC and this is with the tanking going solo on the fire giant till around the 97% health mark and with Salvation up).

[Bolty]

I'm trying to strike a balance between providing useful information and respecting the wishes of the strategy originator, who has expressed a desire for the specific details of the strategy to remain secret.  Is there something wrong with the way I did it?[right][snapback]86373[/snapback][/right]

I don't so much have a beef with the way you did it; instead, it's more that the situation exists at all.

The Lurker Lounge exists as a site for discussion of strategy and tactics. I started it with the intention of it being a home for Diablo experts to have a one-stop-shop for in-depth analysis of the game, collated from many sources. My goal was to make it THE place to go on the Net for hardcore Diablo gaming information, not so much through assimilation of content as instead a portal. My concept was that if you wanted to find out the exact drop percentage of such-and-such an item on a monster, or if you wanted to know the formula for blocking chance on a Warrior etc etc blah blah, you could always start here and find out somewhere on the site, whether it be a link somewhere else (like to Jarulf's Guide, which was hosted elsewhere for a long time), a search on the forums, or a search through the strategy guides.

A side effect of this is that the site also became the home for tracking game bugs and exploits in the hope that we could help Blizzard stamp them out. At first, for many years, it was a matter of collecting bug lists and making Blizzard aware of them, along with pointing out as news bits links to any posts anywhere that revealed new exploits so that they'd get patched faster. As time went on, we were actually getting to the point where Blizzard employees were contacting me, not the other way around, to find out what the latest problems were. This site was so "hooked in" to the game that my goal was completely realized - it was THE place to go for hardcore discussion (this was in the D2-early D2LOD days). The culture here was great.

It couldn't last - I burned out massively - and haven't really found someone as insane as I was back then to give practically multi-day updates on new strategies, bug discoveries, exploits, etc. It takes a certain level of dedication to something that is, after all, given away for free that's a little crazy. So anyway, I still believe in this "cause," so to speak, even if I don't have the time/ability/inclination to continue it.

So seeing a post from someone saying how they know a cool strategy and won't share it just makes me shake my head. Kind of one of those "what is the world coming to" things old geezers like me say when they hear this. This site's original intention is SO anti-"hold onto this strat and don't let it go public" that you might as well tell me you love using maphack in D2.

Now, don't go ballistic on me - you said it's not your call here, and I understand that. Your original post didn't say that, though, and so my first reaction was "why the f*** do you even come here with that kind of attitude." Instead of going completely ape on you, I just posted "Wow." Since you are put between a rock (being a good Lurker, and realizing that trying to hide possible exploits or really good strategies for the advantage of a guild is wrong) and a hard place (being a good friend, and not giving something away that you have been told not to), I'll stop here.

I wish you could convince whomever it is of the fact that this is just a game, and OMGWTFBBQ keeping a good strategy to himself is kind of silly, but I understand if your obligation to him gets in the way.

Remember the phrase obligatory strat? Haven't used that in a long time - it's what you put into a <NS> (no strategy) post to make it strategy related. Yep, back in the day we had forums where if you had no strategy in it, you were expected to label it as such in the title - now, THAT'S a good way to encourage strategy discussion. Anyway, my obligatory strat for this post: yesterday on Stormrage we were having some loot lag issues, and I found that it's possible to abuse clamshells to bypass encounters. Could be old news, but the point was by shift-left-clicking clamshells while running, loot lag would be engaged, and anything I did movement-wise for the next few seconds wouldn't really "count." I wasn't snapping back, either - it's just that to the server I likely appeared to zip from point A to point B very very quickly while the looting of the contents of the clamshell were going off. In a situation with high loot lag, a player could potentially abuse this to bypass encounters. Take a big pack of clamshells, approach that big boss, and start looting - you'll run right past it without ever waking it up.

Not very abusable, I know, but what the heck. I found something, so I posted it. :)

-Bolty

[lemekim]

I will now have to disclose Skandranon's ultimate druid bear form strategy so as to avoid further confrontations and misunderstandings. It is, indeed, a very powerful and potent ability, and in right places and situations is pretty much unrivaled. Now, I do ask you not to overuse this tip, but here it is nonetheless.

Usually, the druid shifts to bear form first, but sometimes they do it after, it really doesn't matter. Either way, you have to jump up, and then land on top of a mailbox that is located in a fairly crowded city. Once you are on top of the mailbox and in bear form, type /sleep. Once that is done, it is advisable to leave your computer and watch a movie of some sort; you want to give enough time for the spell to take full effect. Also, precise placement is important, you want to maximize the amount of the mailbox that you cover. People will love it. They will shout your name in praise, they will send you whispers with their warmest wishes, they will create emotes just for you. Indeed, quite a powerful spell.

Note: While it is possible to attempt this with more then one druid in bear form, the effect of the spell goes up exponentially with the amount of people involved, possibly threatening the very stability of the realm, and including a possible GM intervention to prevent this destabilization. Use with caution.

[Trien]

Druid
Secondary healer or secondary tank in 5 man. Yes I know there are lots of druids who claim to have primary tanked or primary healed in a 5 man but I bet it was in a very experienced group and with top end gear. In any case, you wouldn't chose a druid as healer above a priest or as tank above a warrior. In a raid the class has massive utility thanks to the buffs, heals and being able to secondary tank when needed. Very powerful class PvE generally and always wanted in any raid. Also wanted 5 man so long as you already have a warrior and priest. The druid can be both secondary tanks and secondary healer as needed and when those roles aren't needed he can dish out some useful DPS as well. On my server most druids are forced into a healing role only due to lack of preists.
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Forced into healing due to lack of priests was a very true thing for me bringing my druid up... we simply had no priests (save a few very low level alts) in the guild. So, when it came to doing quest runs (5-man) in the instances, guess who ended up stuck being healer? Ended up respeccing out of a mainly feral build in late L40's because of this. But I must defend the druid class, and say that a druid can primary heal these, even without a group that's well equipped. From BRD in the late L50's, to LBRS, Strath, and Scholo... and this is before many of the recent nerfs to these instances to make them easier. We were never spectacularly geared... Experience wise? I suppose we'd played enough togethere levelling up that we knew our roles, and how to improvise due to non-ideal party makeup.

Which leads me to another thought about all this talk of classes and their specific roles. So often people are looking for the 'ideal' group makeup that they don't necessarily explore the possibilities of running with less than ideal groups... though I can't blame them for random pickup groups since you don't know the players involved. But those who have had to push the limits have a bit more appreciation for what classes are really capable of. Druid tank? Paladin main healer? 4-manning specific parts of instances since you can't find a full group?

The 40-man endgame raids are fun for their groupwork and coordination, but unfortunatley does tend to narrow each class down to a specific few skills (as has been mentioned)... but it is the 5-man (or less!) groups where one really gets to stretch.

Anyone up for 5-manning UBRS? (No, we've never finished it, but we've tried!)

[Skandranon]

I wish you could convince whomever it is of the fact that this is just a game, and OMGWTFBBQ keeping a good strategy to himself is kind of silly, but I understand if your obligation to him gets in the way.

I feel more or less the same way. I'm just not one of those people who sees the PvE content of this game as a competition against other people; personally, I couldn't care less what other guilds have and haven't done. I remember in LoD beta when I posted a long report on my observations on the whirlwind barbarian and how to preserve its effectiveness in light of the weapon-speed changes; I just wasn't going to be concerned about someone else reading it and making a higher level barbarian faster. It just didn't matter to me. But my opinion is in the decided minority on this issue as it relates to WoW, and respecting others' position, I can't say much more than I did. I merely wanted to note that it's a bad thing to lock druids into the healer role in a raid tactician's mind, because they aren't always forced to do that.

Remember the phrase obligatory strat?&nbsp;
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Heh. That I do. And so, for this post:

ObStrat: Because aggro has no range limit in instances, a hunter using Eyes of the Beast on their pet can body pull with the pet. Even if the pet dies, aggro will transfer to the hunter and the mobs will aggro no matter what the distance, giving hunters an effective pulling range of several hundred yards. Especially in raid instances, this means that you virtually never have to encounter a pull in unfavourable terrain.

[Mirajj]

ObStrat: Because aggro has no range limit in instances, a hunter using Eyes of the Beast on their pet can body pull with the pet.&nbsp; Even if the pet dies, aggro will transfer to the hunter and the mobs will aggro no matter what the distance, giving hunters an effective pulling range of several hundred yards.&nbsp; Especially in raid instances, this means that you virtually never have to encounter a pull in unfavourable terrain.
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Very interesting. I'd wondered a little about this, but never given it much thought. You so rarely see a pet in a raid level instance that it just doesn't come to mind. Perhaps that'll have to change.

[Arnulf]

Very interesting. I'd wondered a little about this, but never given it much thought. You so rarely see a pet in a raid level instance that it just doesn't come to mind. Perhaps that'll have to change.
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This is how Baron Geddon can be pulled into the room where Garr normally resides. Actually our regular MC raid had difficulties doing this because we overlooked a minor detail. You still have to remove two of the mob groups in front of Geddon before you can attempt this. Because of this one of our hunters had the following idea:

Ob. Strat.:

A hunter would go to Geddon and place himself outside of his aggro range. Then a warlock would create a portal for the hunter inside of Garr's room. The hunter would not click on accept but instead fire a shot at Geddon and then click accept.

That is the theory. :) We do not actually know if this would work, because we finally figured out how to get Geddon the boring way. :) I think when the hunter portals he loses aggro. But I'm not sure of this... The idea is so crazy that it could actually work.

now to a completely different topic:

Regarding mages and Molten Core. Yes, fire mages may not be wisest move in Molten Core. On the other hand I do not think that Molten Core is the end game. I believe that MC is just the first of the big raid dungeon instances that will comprise the future end game of WoW. I'm not counting Blackwing Lair, because Blackwing Lair is obviously not finished.

-Arnulf

[Kevin]

ObStrat: Because aggro has no range limit in instances, a hunter using Eyes of the Beast on their pet can body pull with the pet.&nbsp; Even if the pet dies, aggro will transfer to the hunter and the mobs will aggro no matter what the distance, giving hunters an effective pulling range of several hundred yards.&nbsp; Especially in raid instances, this means that you virtually never have to encounter a pull in unfavourable terrain.
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When Marn was the best tank option on Terenas I would use EotB pulls at some times to help split things as well. Though it looks like the they fixed the aggro radius of the pet to not be horribly small anymore though my tests were very limited. But, pulls that weren't specifically linked could be split with Eyes but not with a bow shot. This is part of how Treesh and I duo'd wailing caverns at L21 with just our shaman and hunter.

Pet pulls are also one of the reasons to put points into improved EotB and with 1.7 cats being able to stealth add another reason for it. Hunters will have stealth scout (though more limited) as well as rogues and druids.

Aggro bounce between a shaman, a hunter, and the pet is also part of the big success of the duo. All three of us can heal in some capacity (pet can spirit bond heal me, I can heal pet and shaman can heal anyone). All 3 of us have high aggro attacks. The pet and the hunter have good ways to drop aggro as well. Since the pet still has the highest armor, the shaman has the next highest with a shield, then the hunter who has the highest dodge, survivability is all about the same for the 3. So bouncing the aggro around increase the effective HP pool a lot and helps maximize the effectivenesss of the healing methods.

Even in Molten Core, aggro bounce can help the healers. We had a run where we got a little slow and picked up a Core hound. There was another one that we got confused on pathing so we went and picked that one up as well so we had 3 trash mobs being fought at once. Myself and Cybitar bounced aggro on one of the corehounds while the rest of the raid dealt with the other mobs (I had a face full of corehound don't know what else was there) and the healers loved us for it because of how they could use heals and the extra time it gave them to deal with us. So don't forgot about using planned aggro bounces, even in high end instances. At times it really helps to increase the effective HP of the tank (i.e. whatever is holding the mob).

A hunter would go to Geddon and place himself outside of his aggro range. Then a warlock would create a portal for the hunter inside of Garr's room. The hunter would not click on accept but instead fire a shot at Geddon and then click accept.

That is the theory. smile.gif We do not actually know if this would work, because we finally figured out how to get Geddon the boring way. smile.gif I think when the hunter portals he loses aggro. But I'm not sure of this... The idea is so crazy that it could actually work.

This is basically one of the early exploit strategies from months ago as I understand it though this might have been with rogues and General Drakk or something (it was a long time ago). Blizzard labeled it as an exploit becuase you were eliminating mobs from the encounter. I don't recall if aggro drops in a cross instance summons or not now.