Raiding as we go forward

[oldmandennis]

I'm a little suspicious of "participation points" inflation being countered by heavy bidding. It could just as easily be amplified by collusion and light bidding.
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You are right, that possibiltiy does exist. You need to state that it is against the rules, and hope you have a good enough group that people don't cheat. It's really against your interests, unless all the warriors conspired to keep prices down on warrior gear so they could buy all the weapons that rogues wanted. So far it is working for us. As long as noone is cheating, the heavy bidding absolutly can keep things in check, as players drive up prices so people spend an appropriate amount of points, and usually end up with nearly nothing after a good purchase. Average point value among regular raiders is about 25, at which point you usually see something you like and can afford it, but it pretty much wipes you out, sending you to the back of the "list".

[Pesmerga]

I actually like the idea, but I see two problems immediately.  First, how do you order the initial list?  With 40 people, being the last person is a significant setback to getting something nice.  Second, if someone is there the first time and then doesn't raid with us for quite some time, their name will float to the top.  If they then raid once again, they are now at the top and can grab the first juicy piece that drops, even though others have put much more time into getting us built up.  Oh, and a third, how do greens, vendor trash and crafting items fit into the scheme.  If we used it, I would think /random would be best for the green and vendor stuff and that crafting items would go into the avarice pool, possibly with a crafting council set up to determine who gets what crafted item next.  Just my $.02.
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Greens and trash should be randomed off. Just makes sense. Crafting items into the Avarice pool also makes sense.

When i'm at work tomorrow, I'll try and think of a way to make it so that missing one/two raids doesn't hurt you too much, but subsequent misses will move you down the list. Maybe an escalating scale of some sort.... we'll see.

The initial list would have to be random generator, to make it fair, maybe weighing people a little more if they already have loot from MC. I'd even go so far as to volunteer to take the last spot if we were to implement this system.

[martini]

It's really against your interests, unless all the warriors conspired to keep prices down on warrior gear so they could buy all the weapons that rogues wanted.

It's even possible that it happen without seriously meaning to: what if all of the warlocks are casual about bidding because they know that there are fewer of them, so they don't need to have a coronary over every set item, so they just don't feel that it's worth all their points whenever something good drops? If the mages feel differently, and are rabid about gear and outbid each other crazily, who's more likely to have enough points for the uber caster ring? Even without actual collusion, if you allow people to bid, there are going to be imbalances.

Also, and this is just personal, but bidding feels really adversarial to me, like I'm trying to figure out how to screw my allies out of loot while giving me the best chance to get as much loot as possible. That's not what I'm looking for in a loot system - I just want a system that tells me when it's my turn to step up and loot the shiny, and that tells me when it should be someone else's turn, so that I don't take loot away from someone who deserves it more.

[Tuftears]

When i'm at work tomorrow, I'll try and think of a way to make it so that missing one/two raids doesn't hurt you too much, but subsequent misses will move you down the list.  Maybe an escalating scale of some sort.... we'll see.

Personally speaking, I don't plan to make too many of these raids - all the current raids are targeted for 7:30 PM server time and I don't get home from work until about 10:15 PM server time. I only plan to attend the Saturday raids.

Any loot system is going to have to encourage everyone to participate, but not punish them if they don't participate 'often enough'.

[Alrin]

I actually like the idea, but I see two problems immediately.  First, how do you order the initial list?  With 40 people, being the last person is a significant setback to getting something nice.  Second, if someone is there the first time and then doesn't raid with us for quite some time, their name will float to the top.  If they then raid once again, they are now at the top and can grab the first juicy piece that drops, even though others have put much more time into getting us built up.  Oh, and a third, how do greens, vendor trash and crafting items fit into the scheme.  If we used it, I would think /random would be best for the green and vendor stuff and that crafting items would go into the avarice pool, possibly with a crafting council set up to determine who gets what crafted item next.  Just my $.02.
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Don't forget that even though its 40 people in the raid, not 40 people are eligible for your class set piece that just dropped.
At worst you will be competing against:

1) Other players of the same class (No more than.. oh say 6 competitors)
2) Other players of the same type of class (casters / meleers etc. No more than.. 12 competitors)
3) All 39 on a pure greed roll on bags etc.

So even if you end up at spot #40 as the 3rd druid in the raid, you are still #3 in line for your druid set piece drops, while the hunters have more competition due to the fact that we have more hunters. So realistically, starting at the way back isnt necessarily "teh d3vil".

Oh and may I make a suggestion on the order of randoming items?
That we always roll on class items first. Then items that are multiple-classes viable.
I dont recall if we did that last time, just a thought though.

Without Wax, Alrin.

[Alrin]

When i'm at work tomorrow, I'll try and think of a way to make it so that missing one/two raids doesn't hurt you too much, but subsequent misses will move you down the list.  Maybe an escalating scale of some sort.... we'll see.
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Perhaps make it so that unannounced misses of the raids leads to eventually dropping in the list. ie, if you sign up for the raid and dont show up, repeatedly you will get dropped a spot or two in the loot rank.

*shrug* Just a thought.

[Darian]

Perhaps make it so that unannounced misses of the raids leads to eventually dropping in the list. ie, if you sign up for the raid and dont show up, repeatedly you will get dropped a spot or two in the loot rank.
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Well, first we'd have to have a system where people are required to sign up for the raid... up to now, since we've never had enough people to fill the raid without SOME outsiders, it's been "if you're on time, you're coming."

[Tal]

Also, and this is just personal, but bidding feels really adversarial to me, like I'm trying to figure out how to screw my allies out of loot while giving me the best chance to get as much loot as possible. That's not what I'm looking for in a loot system - I just want a system that tells me when it's my turn to step up and loot the shiny, and that tells me when it should be someone else's turn, so that I don't take loot away from someone who deserves it more.
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This in itself could be a problem in my opinion. Last night we were talking about drops on Teamspeak and the subject of Azuresong Mageblade came up with the comment that mages and warlocks would probably be pretty pissed if a paladin rolled on it as it was more suited for the casters. I contend that if I am to be regulated to the role of cleansing, buffing and healing that this sword would be a boon as it allows me another slot with intellect on it and more importantly + to healing. I'm certain that there are many who would disagree. Same with Aurastone Hammer - some would argue that a paladin shouldn't roll on that either as it would be better served in the hands of a priest or a druid than a paladins. Really begs the question of what deserving means. :)

P.S I really really really want a Aurastone. ;)

[Pesmerga]

Greens and trash should be randomed off.  Just makes sense.  Crafting items into the Avarice pool also makes sense.

When i'm at work tomorrow, I'll try and think of a way to make it so that missing one/two raids doesn't hurt you too much, but subsequent misses will move you down the list.  Maybe an escalating scale of some sort.... we'll see.

The initial list would have to be random generator, to make it fair, maybe weighing people a little more if they already have loot from MC.  I'd even go so far as to volunteer to take the last spot if we were to implement this system.
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Miss One Raid: No movement down the list (#$%& happens, right?)
Miss Two Consecutive: 2 spots down the list
Miss Three Consecutive: 6 spots down the list (I get more severe :D )
Miss Four Consecutive: 20 spots down
Miss Five or More: Poof, bottom.

Now, what happens if a person hits every other raid? Honestly, I'm fine with not moving them at all. I know people like Mirajj can't always make it because of work, but usually makes at least every other raid, and Mirajj is always a big contributor.

[Kevin]

Miss One Raid: No movement down the list (#$%& happens, right?)
Miss Two Consecutive: 2 spots down the list
Miss Three Consecutive: 6 spots down the list (I get more severe :D )
Miss Four Consecutive: 20 spots down
Miss Five or More: Poof, bottom.

Now, what happens if a person hits every other raid?  Honestly, I'm fine with not moving them at all.  I know people like Mirajj can't always make it because of work, but usually makes at least every other raid, and Mirajj is always a big contributor.
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I don't like the Miss Two raids moving down the list either. Why?

Well I set up Saturday raids because we have people that can only make the Saturday raids, they can not do the weekend raids at all. We are a fluid raid group so we can be inclusive as possible. I don't see how dropping people back 2 spots everytime is going to help make them want to attend. I don't think it will necessarily hurt their shot at loot because generally there will be someone else of their class that won't be there as well. But it still won't always make them feel like going. Our list is going to be about 60 or 70 deep I think as well, not just 40. I need to think more about the list and run some sims to see what will happen to those people that can only make one raid a week.

I don't want a static raid group that then makes all the others scramble to do stuff. I like the fluid group that gets as many people a chance to see this end game stuff as possible. We still have a lot of casual players that are quality additions to the raid. I don't want to penalize them heavily.

The list also has a good chance of hurting the multi 60 crowd. Taranna has been in most of the Onyxia raids lately because we've had fewer people at them and we need the healing more than the tanking. Gnolack has been in Molten Core because we've needed the tanking but not the healing as badly. Yes with a larger pool of players to pull from I might not need to do good the raid anymore but I certainly don't want Taranna and Gnolack at the front of the list because we move GG up but I also don't want Taranna at the back of the list and Gnolack with the chance to slip back 6 slots because we need Taranna more that night but I had been playing Gnolack in the raids lately. I also don't want myself or Bun-Bun, or Lissa or Dragoon, or Tal, or Treesh, or anyone else I missed with two or more 60's to have to give up the freedom of choice of who to play. This is also why Gnolack is so willing to let Anadrol, Darian, and Telsak get better tank gear first, even though right now it's arguable that he might be better geared for Molten Core than all but Anadrol right now (yeah I might have better tank gear than Darian right now and this was before I won the pants).

I still think despite the potential for disaster of a council that an IA type of system where we do track accomplishments of that character/person and what they have gotten but then we decide where the loot goes based on that council decision is the better way to go. When you simply won't be able to make progess to something new because someone lacks the HP or FR to handle the situation or because we don't have a leatherworker that can make the Onyxia capes that you need to go into BWL or what not you need to do stuff like this. We're already kinda doing this for the crafted stuff anyway. But yes I do see how people from CA might think that lurkers are only going to give loot to lurkers. The "dedication" category they had will also reward someone like Sabra who left the raid so that we could bring in Flyndar and have a higher chance of success on Magmadar even though she wouldn't have been there for that boss kill. A straight point system would have hurt her there, a list wouldn't have helped her too much on the next mage gear that dropped, unless mage gear dropped off Mag and she got moved up because someone won and got moved down.

But I could live with a list or a point system or just staying with what we do now as well. There are flaws in every system. We need to decide which flaws are the best to live with for the way our raids work and how we want our raids to work. Then we need to make sure that this information is out there and available for everyone who comes on the raids with us. I'm still not sure that this discussion is even being seen by all the people who need to know about it and that bothers me.

Anyway I have people that want my alt to go to BFD with them so I should wrap this up.

[Pesmerga]

I don't like the Miss Two raids moving down the list either.  Why? 

Well I set up Saturday raids because we have people that can only make the Saturday raids, they can not do the weekend raids at all.  We are a fluid raid group so we can be inclusive as possible.  I don't see how dropping people back 2 spots everytime is going to help make them want to attend.  I don't think it will necessarily hurt their shot at loot because generally there will be someone else of their class that won't be there as well.  But it still won't always make them feel like going.  Our list is going to be about 60 or 70 deep I think as well, not just 40.  I need to think more about the list and run some sims to see what will happen to those people that can only make one raid a week.

Understandable. Maybe make it that it takes 3 raids missed to start dropping places? I had forgotten about the Saturday crowd due to the fact that I'm very rarely around on Saturday. Sorry x.x

The list also has a good chance of hurting the multi 60 crowd.  Taranna has been in most of the Onyxia raids lately because we've had fewer people at them and we need the healing more than the tanking.  Gnolack has been in Molten Core because we've needed the tanking but not the healing as badly.  Yes with a larger pool of players to pull from I might not need to do good the raid anymore but I certainly don't want Taranna and Gnolack at the front of the list because we move GG up but I also don't want Taranna at the back of the list and Gnolack with the chance to slip back 6 slots because we need Taranna more that night but I had been playing Gnolack in the raids lately.  I also don't want myself or Bun-Bun, or Lissa or Dragoon, or Tal, or Treesh, or anyone else I missed with two or more 60's to have to give up the freedom of choice of who to play. This is also why Gnolack is so willing to let Anadrol, Darian, and Telsak get better tank gear first, even though right now it's arguable that he might be better geared for Molten Core than all but Anadrol right now (yeah I might have better tank gear than Darian right now and this was before I won the pants).

I made the assumption (because of how all of Avarice is, you know, trustworthy and cool about things) here that we would base the list on accounts, not characters. Each person (read: player) would still get the same amount of loot, just the multi 60's would have it spread over 2 or more chars. I think this is still very fair.

I still think despite the potential for disaster of a council that an IA type of system where we do track accomplishments of that character/person and what they have gotten but then we decide where the loot goes based on that council decision is the better way to go.  When you simply won't be able to make progess to something new because someone lacks the HP or FR to handle the situation or because we don't have a leatherworker that can make the Onyxia capes that you need to go into BWL or what not you need to do stuff like this.  We're already kinda doing this for the crafted stuff anyway.  But yes I do see how people from CA might think that lurkers are only going to give loot to lurkers.  The "dedication" category they had will also reward someone like Sabra who left the raid so that we could bring in Flyndar and have a higher chance of success on Magmadar even though she wouldn't have been there for that boss kill.  A straight point system would have hurt her there, a list wouldn't have helped her too much on the next mage gear that dropped, unless mage gear dropped off Mag and she got moved up because someone won and got moved down.

Don't like the council idea. At all.

[martini]

What advantage do you get from the list that you don't get from a zero-sum point system? I'm having trouble seeing why it's preferable.

In addition to what I mentioned above about item values and the absolute nature of the list, and the "gaming" of the system that people are foced to do, the point system can also be used to apportion crafting supplies... would the same be true of the list? How do you handle someone who needs one core leather for something? Would they be handled differently from someone who needs an entire crafted item?

[Pesmerga]

What advantage do you get from the list that you don't get from a zero-sum point system? I'm having trouble seeing why it's preferable.

In addition to what I mentioned above about item values and the absolute nature of the list, and the "gaming" of the system that people are foced to do, the point system can also be used to apportion crafting supplies... would the same be true of the list? How do you handle someone who needs one core leather for something? Would they be handled differently from someone who needs an entire crafted item?
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Personally, I just find a list easier to maintain/understand/etc.

As far as crafting supplies go, I have no idea. I think they should be banked, but I have no idea how it should work out for people who want to use and create stuff with them.

[martini]

If it helps, here is the web tool that we've used to update the point system that we've used. If no one else wants to take over the admin, I'd be happy to do it (I'm not available on Mondays, so I may not be the best choice, but I'm willing).

Was just thinking about things like the priest epic... in the list system, you can virtually guarantee that whoever the top priest is when we do the initial rolls will stay up there until they get their epic. With a point system, it's possible for someone to catch up to the top spot if they're on more runs than the "top" person. In the list system, if someone comes every Thursday, they're on top till they get whatever they want, even if others come Monday, Thursday, and Saturday.

I love the idea of a loot council in theory. In practice, I think that people need to know ahead of time what's expected of them, and that the only way for people to feel that the system is fair is if it's numbers-based, and they can track those numbers.

If there are special cases, like a leatherworker getting to loot the Onyxia head, I think that the raid will be okay with it if we explain the reasons before the kill. Maybe talk to an officer in each of the guilds first, and refer anyone with problems to that officer, so that anyone who has an issue can discuss it with someone they're comfortable with, without bugging the raid leader? I think there's been a Basin officer on all of the runs I've been on, and I think the same is true of CA and Lurkers.

[Pesmerga]

Was just thinking about things like the priest epic... in the list system, you can virtually guarantee that whoever the top priest is when we do the initial rolls will stay up there until they get their epic. With a point system, it's possible for someone to catch up to the top spot if they're on more runs than the "top" person. In the list system, if someone comes every Thursday, they're on top till they get whatever they want, even if others come Monday, Thursday, and Saturday.
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Very true... but that means they've been passing on any other priest loot out there. Which means it's been trickling down to other priests. Which means people are still getting stuff.

[martini]

True... is the objective that people can try for the pieces that they want, or that everyone gets something, even if your heart is set on something else?

[kandrathe]

True... is the objective that people can try for the pieces that they want, or that everyone gets something, even if your heart is set on something else?
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I guess they could *Pass* and retain their position in the list. That way they would get first dibs at whatever was class appropriate until they get what they wanted or settled for something.

For Pesmerga; My issue with the list is that if you are unlucky enough to be 8th on the list you must wait for countless drops before something your class wants appears. How do you resolve issues where the item is multi-class? Say Eskhandar's Collor drops, do warriors, hunters, and rogues have a combined separate list? That is also an interesting item, since the full set would really be best for a fury warrior or possibly a survival hunter. This set completion wouldn't conflict with class epic set either.

There needs to be a balance between fair (encourages participation) and the common good (enables team success).

I think the best solution for "fair" distribution is that we use /rand for those that opt to roll, but if one person is repeatedly slighted we designate "the next" available epic to that person to flatten out the bell curve. Similarly, if someone has "TheDragoon" luck and has many more "wins" than everyone, they should opt out of the rolling until the distribution flattens out. People would rather be last randomly than know they are last, and they would not enjoy with (equal participation), seeing those of the same class completing their epic sets before they had one piece.

For team goals, and overcoming team challenges I believe we need to designate certain drops (Like Onyxia head to a LW) to enable team success.

[martini]

Well, in my example above, if you're the 4th priest, you can pass to retain position, but it's still not going to do you any good, since there are 3 people ahead of you who will also be passing until they get the one thing that you want. And one raid a week is enough for them to preserve their position ahead of you on the list, even if you raid with the alliance 3x as often. Of course, if you're less discriminating, then Pesmerga is absolutely right... enjoy the bottom position and rake in the loot that the others are passing on in order to retain list position.

Come to think of it, wouldn't it be sweet to be the first top guy? You stay there until you get your epic quest starter, then once you do, you're at the bottom, and everyone else is up there passing all the loot down to you.

Hmm... this makes the list system also sound like a system that you have to "game" in order to maximize your loot, and minimize the loot of your allies. Does the zero-sum point system have the same drawbacks, and I'm not seeing them because it's my preferred system? Input, please! :)

[Pesmerga]

Hmm... this makes the list system also sound like a system that you have to "game" in order to maximize your loot, and minimize the loot of your allies. Does the zero-sum point system have the same drawbacks, and I'm not seeing them because it's my preferred system? Input, please! :)
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See, I don't quite see it that way. If you want that epic quest, and you are at the top of the list... then lucky you. However, the people below you are getting sweet gear... and who knows how long it is until we get to and spawn the chest...

Ex: If some hunter is at the top, and wants that leaf... he waits and waits and waits... and waits.... by the time we get the leaf, the other 6 hunters have 3-4 pieces of gear, and are next in line to get the next pieces too. So you do kind of gimp yourself a little bit if you pass on everything. Yeah, you get [Item of Uberness], but you've missed out on so much else.

[Darian]

I made the assumption (because of how all of Avarice is, you know, trustworthy and cool about things)...

-snip-

Don't like the council idea.  At all.
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Unless you have another, undisclosed and non-obvious, reason why you don't like the council idea at all, these two statements don't seem to mesh.

Obviously, if everyone felt the council was trustworthy, there'd never be a problem (except perhaps for some bruised egos on the part of people who think they do more than they do).

Not that I want anything to do with handing out gear where I think it's most suited to go. I gotta score SOME loot before Anadrol... =P