Raiding as we go forward

[Ruvanal]

Ore and leather seem to be the best choices for rep.  Leather is farmable though you need about 20 people to do it.  I have solo farmed some ore in BRD with my warrior but it takes a lot of instance resetting and then getting the nodes to be in the early areas.  I don't have a character that can stealth and mine though.
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...and kandrathe from the other thread

Also, for those chaffing for some drops, when MC is not locked (or even when it is) we could still gather 15-20 of us and farm trash mobs on the off days.

Here is a list of the purple set stuff that drops pretty regularly from the trash mobs we've already been fighting before Lucifron.

clip....list of BoE set bracers and belts ...../clip

And by a good chance, I mean 1 to 3% per mob we kill. Seems worth killing 50 some trash mobs to get someone a set piece. I'd jump on some raid runs for a chance at those two Giantstalker pieces.

If you look in the Guilded channel you will see that on most evenings there are 20-35 people on. I would suggest setting a time limit of not more than 2 hours, so that people don't get *burned out* on MC. smile.gif :: Pun intended :: If all we do is take down 5-10 mobs, it's still a 10-15% chance that someone will get something.

Both of these combine good as way to get core leather for rep gains that will be needed to move forward. They also give another added benefit in that many of the regular player that take part in this activity and those they choose to help with the set pieces, will already have have them more quickly. This in turn would mean that an occasional or part time participant would have less competition if one of these items drops. That in turn would give those players more of a feeling that they were actually able to get something out of the raid without putting them directly into competition for some of the other more 'rare' loot from some of the boss mobs that come later.

P.S. I reluctantly agree with what Bolty has posted. You will need to have some sort of "point system" in place soon or there are going to start being a lot upset or irrated players after some of the better drops. Particularly when the exploration novelty of the area starts to wear off. This is not to say that a point system will stop all such feelings, but it should help lessen their impact to a great degree. Counting on or expecting altruism from others is just an opening for great disapointment since it rarely comes through as the number of people involved increases.

[Kevin]

My biggest issue with a point system is one coming up with one that everyone likes and not putting in the feeling that now the goal is points and loot, even it is I don't want it to feel that way. Two managing and tracking it all. I know it can be done, but I don't want to do it. While I say I want rules you'll also note that I want to keep them as loose and flexible and closer to guidelines as possible. I rely on good human nature too much probably. :)

Of course this coalition probably won't become a group that is completely loot driven. Of course IA isn't fully loot driven either some members are many aren't though in my experiences. I've seen guild and avarice comments about farming trash mobs in Molten Core on non raid nights. There were several responses of, yeah that would give good chances at loot and help us out, but there are other things I want to do like PvP or 5 man this instance or play an alt. And these weren't all comments from me either so :P

Adding a 3rd night was a big deal but it works out that most people are still only going to be raiding one or two nights a week and the pool is big enough that people can simply not go some night if they don't feel like it. So I don't really have fears of Lurkers/CA/HH/et al become an hard core raid group.

I don't think a point system would hurt us but I still don't want one. I want everyone to have loots and be happy but yeah loots have to drop first. :) Anyway. I've seen several good agruments for a point system and I agree that it really won't hurt the people who are there one night a week as opposed to two or three. But I still don't want to go that way.

Of course I'm the one who decided that the worms needed to be be all of the table and not just left in their can. :)

[Skandranon]

Of course IA isn't fully loot driven either some members are many aren't though in my experiences.  [right][snapback]86321[/snapback][/right]

IA is not loot driven at all.

But we don't use a point system, either.

[Metrocube]

They use Communism.

edit: added smiley :)

[Kevin]

IA is not loot driven at all.

But we don't use a point system, either.
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I've heard stories about members that seemed to only be there for the loots and of course that some of those people aren't members anymore. But again this is outside looking in. Did not mean to offend hence some are many (meaning most) aren't. Didn't mean to offend was actually trying to compliment IA for being a strong goal oriented team. Was not clear on that.

[Sabra]

managing and tracking it all.

I would be more than willing to take on that responsibility. Fits right in with my administrative background. So if we do adopt a points system, I volunteer.

[kandrathe]

My opinions (and I'm cool with whatever way we go);

We could do it /random as we have, or we could do it planned for the good of us all. I think we are good natured, and generous people and I feel if the call went out for items from our smiths, the call would be answered. Yes, I take a deep breath when I give away items worth 20g, 50g, 100g -- but I remember it is a game and I can replace (in time) anything I've gifted. The key is that we all know that an item we are hording in our banks isn't helping anyone. We should all have an understanding that our group goals are primary to selling, or hording something.

If we do it "planned" then everyone should have a part to play (hopefully something they love to do) and know well in advance what their role is. Everyone should feel an important part of the group contribution. We also need a priority on crafts. What crafts are useful, and what are we going to do to support them? We could also do a rotation where X number (sufficient to make something) of core mat go to crafter1, then to crafter2, etc.

I also think some of the stress would be relieved on the loot dept, if we spent some of our off time farming trash mobs in MC for epic bracer and belt drops.

Another idea; maybe crazy. We all get many quality BOE item drop that we win in /rand rolls throughout the week, or perhaps nice crafts, that end up at AH, or sitting in a bank for an alt 40 levels to young. Why not collect these (donations) and /rand them at raid time instead as at least a consolation prize for some of the attendees.

[TheLuminaire]

Some of you have expressed interest in getting opinions from those not in these raids.  Well, here's mine:

A point system is completely inevitable and if one is not implemented *eventually*, your raids will fall apart due to in-fighting and bickering over loot.  It's based on history, and not to sound like an ivory-tower professor, but I know the natural progression of these kinds of raid formations is:

1) casual guilds assemble to do raiding
2) guilds consolidate or become more regimented in their raid setup
3) loot distribution method becomes necessary or raid breaks up
4) group becomes more of a hardcore raid group, with regular raids and point system

...

My 2 cents.  I believe you can only go on so long without a point system before a loot dispute threatens to break up the whole raid group.  Then it becomes a matter of working out a GOOD point system, and that's a heck of a challenge.

-Bolty
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That's exactly my experience as well, in every guild I've ever been in. Simply put, if you're serious about beating Molten Core, you're going to need more than one day, more than 30 people, and you're going to need better gear. This means more runs, more crafting, and better loot distribution.

The guilds I've raided with in past always started out like this. We're all just friends at first, enjoying some end game content. But sooner or later, if we wanted to progress, we were going to need that better loot, and that's where the fighting always starts. Even though we all hated the idea of the points system, after 2 or 3 weeks of running with it, we all noticed that the loot was being evenly distrubuted, and we were moving faster through the encounters, since we all knew exactly how the looting system was going to work.

I'd highly, highly reccomend a points system of some sort. The initial investment of time to get in running, and the backlash from those against it, is more than worth it in the long run. For the good of the raid, right?

[Pesmerga]

I'd highly, highly reccomend a points system of some sort.  The initial investment of time to get in running, and the backlash from those against it, is more than worth it in the long run.  For the good of the raid, right?
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For the sake of discussion, I'm working on a loot system at work (which will most likely turn out like every other system, but I'm working from the ground up, with limited knowledge of how it's been done before.

I honestly don't care how loot is distributed, however, I'm bored, and this offers me something to do.

With any luck, this should be posted by 5:30 this evening, EST.

[Pesmerga]

I would be more than willing to take on that responsibility. Fits right in with my administrative background. So if we do adopt a points system, I volunteer.
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I'm game too... I like Excel too much not to volunteer :P

[Darian]

I'm game too... I like Excel too much not to volunteer :P
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Somewhere, in the midst of his Perl scripts and PHP, Kalamere is sobbing.

(That is to say, this sort of thing shouldn't be kept on a spreadsheet on someone's computer, but in a database.)

[Pesmerga]

Somewhere, in the midst of his Perl scripts and PHP, Kalamere is sobbing.

(That is to say, this sort of thing shouldn't be kept on a spreadsheet on someone's computer, but in a database.)
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Trust me, I know. I think my point is that I like to keep track of stuff, and would like to be of some help, somewheres.

[Pesmerga]

Points System

Ok, I've come up with three systems. Chances are at least one of them is a copy of something else we have seen. I dunno, I really don't read into that stuff too much. I'm trying to base this all off of the prob and stat crap that I know. (Not that I know any of the defs. real well, I just like messing with this kind of stuff in my free time)

From what I gather from other posts, this is the most common system.

Important Facts
Boss Kill - 10 points

Players enter MC. They all start with 0 points. They down Lucifron. All of them get 10 points. 2 items to be dished out drop. Secret ballot is sent to impartial (or for the very least, honest) party, blind wagering how many points they are willing to spend.

Item 1: Darian - 8 pts, Anadrol 5 pts, Gnolack 5 pts. Darian wins it, he now has 2 points.
Item 2: Mio 10 pts, Sayuri 10 pts, Gnolack 5 pts. Impartial party informs Mio and Sayuri to random, since they both wagered 10 pts. Sayuri wins, now has 0 pts.

Darian: 2pts
Sayuri: 0pts
Everyone else: 10 pts

Magmadar is killed. 10 more points to all in raid.

Darian: 12 pts
Sayuri 10 pts
Everyone else: 20 pts

Wagering beings anew.

[Pesmerga]

All-in System

Ok, I've come up with three systems. Chances are at least one of them is a copy of something else we have seen. I dunno, I really don't read into that stuff too much. I'm trying to base this all off of the prob and stat crap that I know. (Not that I know any of the defs. real well, I just like messing with this kind of stuff in my free time)

Important Facts
Boss Kill - 1 point

Players enter MC. They all start with 0 points. They down Lucifron. All of them get 1 point. 2 items to be dished out drop. Secret ballot is sent to impartial (or for the very least, honest) party, if the person wants the item. Those with the highest total of points to be wagered are entered into a random drawing. (First fight, in theory, all 40 people could be in the running). Impartial person randoms, and winner is knocked down to 0 points.

Item 1: Darian, Sayuri, Anadrol all want it. They send tell. Random goes to Darian. He now has 0 points.
Item 2: Only Mio wants it. Mio sends tell, he wins. he now has 0 points.

Darian, Mio: 0 pts
Everyone else: 1 pt

Magmadar is dropped. Everyone gets a point. 2 items drop.

Item 1: Darian, Sayuri, Anadrol want it, and send tell. Sayrui and Anadrol both have 2 points, and Darian 1, so the drawing is between Sayuri and Anadrol, without Darian. Sayuri wins, now has 0 points.
Item 2: Darian, Mio, and Anadrol want it. Anadrol has 2 points, Mio and Darian have 1, so Anadrol wins by default. Now has 0 points.

Darian, Mio: 1 pt.
Anadrol, Sayuri: 0 pts.
Everyone else: 2 pts.

[Pesmerga]

Lottery System

Ok, I've come up with three systems. Chances are at least one of them is a copy of something else we have seen. I dunno, I really don't read into that stuff too much. I'm trying to base this all off of the prob and stat crap that I know. (Not that I know any of the defs. real well, I just like messing with this kind of stuff in my free time)

I honestly stole this idea from the NHL lottery for choosing draft order. (Go Sharks!)

Important Facts
Boss Kill - 1 point

Players enter MC. They all start with 0 points. They down Lucifron. All of them get 1 point. 2 items to be dished out drop. Secret ballot is sent to impartial (or for the very least, honest) party, if the person wants the item. Since everyone has 1 point, all those who want the item have a 1 in (however many people want it) chance of gaining said item.

Item 1: Darian, Sayuri, and Anadrol want it. They all have a 33% chance based on random roll (or whatever system is devised) Darian wins, now has 0 points.
Item 2: Sayuri, Anadrol, Gnolack, Mio, Trispal, Garrin, Ramala, and a random monkey want the item. That leaves them all with a 12.5% chance at the item. Ramala wins (lies!) and now has 0 points.

Ramala, Darian: 0 pts.
Everyone else: 1 pt.

Magmadar is killed. Everyone gets another point. 2 items drop.

Item 1: Ramala, and Mio want the item. Mio has a 66% chance (2 pts) to Ramala’s 33% chance (1 pt). Ramala wins, Mio goes home dejected, and Ramala is back at 0.
Item 2: Mio, Garrin, Darian, want the item. Mio and Garrin have a 40% chance, and Darian has a 20% chance. (2 pts for both Mio and Garrin, 1 for Darian). Garrin wins the item, now has 0 pts, and Mio gets sadder.

Ramala, Garrin – 0 pts.
Darian – 1 pt.
Everyone else – 2 pts.

[Pesmerga]

Disclaimer:

I am in no way pushing for a points system. My goal is to increase discussion on the pros and cons of creating a system for distributing loot.

That is all.

[Olon97]

For the sake of discussion, I'm working on a loot system at work (which will most likely turn out like every other system, but I'm working from the ground up, with limited knowledge of how it's been done before.

Some pitfalls to watch out for:

1. Inflation. This is a question of how long someone new to the raiding group needs to participate in order to have a reasonable shot at winning something. Easiest approach to this is ensuring that your system is zero-sum (no gain of points without someone else spending/losing points). You'll have a much easier time getting new people to replace burnout turnover if they come in in the middle of the rankings rather than at the bottom with 0 chance to ever win the super uber gear.

2. Collusion. Free market determines the proper price of an item... right? Yes and no. Say you have a small pool of warlocks who get along and work out an order so they all can do a minimum bid when it's their turn for a class item. Say on the mage side they don't get along (fire & ice ya know) and get into bidding wars on every single class item. An item drops that both warlocks and mages can use, and suddenly you have fully decked out warlocks with more points to spend than a mage who has one or two items tops (same participation).

3. Disenchanting. Depending on how you deal with #2 (common approach is fixed prices for each drop), people may not want to spend points on a drop they can use because they're saving up, or it's a bad value or whatever. Disenchanting epics is always painful, and if you've delt with #1 by going zero-sum, nobody gets anything when it happens. Not totally avoidable, IMO (you can't force people to take something they don't want), but some way to adjust pricing on an item based on total demand (while not bending to collusion) might be wise. Even better if the new price can be retroactively adjusted so people who bought the same thing for more don't feel slighted.

4. Time. Both at the time of drop and administrative. Probably the fairest system out there would be to talk over every drop and have a majority vote on who should get it, after evaluating current gear, past drop history, particpation, etc. You would never kill more than 2 MC bosses in a night if you stick with such a system, however. Administrative time is mostly a concern to avoid burnout - accounting can be fun, but not that fun.

5. Transparency. If there is a list somewhere of who gets what first, it should be accessible via web browser and understandable by participants. That also allows individuals to audit for admin mistakes (human error) on point issues that affect them.

6. People able and willing to come but not allowed to come due to being full, required class mix, etc. There's a balance of keeping enough people in the raid who know what they're doing and will get the job done vs. exluding new faces and giving them the impression that even with zero sum they'll never outbid a "core raider" due to being lapped while they're sitting on the waitlist. More of a question of invite policy, but it bleeds over to loot systems once you start accumulating points.

Be careful how much you reinvent the wheel, unless you care to blindly repeat others' mistakes. ;) Nomatter how good your group of people is, if there are loopholes in your system that allow people to develop an "optimal loot strategy" they probably will.

[Tuftears]

Please have a look at the BRP point system - you may find it interesting.

Features of the system:

• zero-sum, so there is no 'point inflation' over time and you can add newcomers and they will be on a statistically even level with other raiders<>
  
• raid leaders decide the cost of items so people don't try to game the system by bidding low on some items to save points for hotly contested items - so, when someone wins something, they pay X points, everyone else gets X/(N-1) points where N is the number of people in the raid<>
  
• accounts for crafting material by having them automatically won by a guild bank, so everyone gets points for helping in trash mob clearing, and people can turn in points for materials<>
  [st]
  Newcomers can opt to either start earning points immediately or not be enrolled in the point system until a boss kill when they can 'force' a random allocation, after which they would be automatically enrolled if they won - however, that's not a feature in my opinion, it's a hack.
  
  Note that this system is not an official Basin system - that is, raids run by or involving Basin guild members are not required to use this system. It's also not intended to be used for smaller raids than 40-man Molten Core/Onyxia/Azuregos/etc. raids. (for instance, I will not be using it for Zul'gurub runs, when Zul'gurub comes out)
  
  However, it does attempt to solve a lot of 'fairness' questions.
  
  Another loot system that was in discussion for a while was the 'loot list'. Basically, the idea was that everyone would be put into a list, randomly at first. For loot, people would express interest and the person highest on the list would get it, then be moved to the bottom of the list. People who haven't gone to raids in a while can't lose their list position, they just get passed over if they're not at a raid.
  
  The problem is that if the list has been running for a while, then where do you put newcomers? Putting them behind all the people who haven't won anything in the last (few) runs could mean they'd feel like they have no chance to win something. (this is also the case for the BRP system because at 0 points, you'll be behind everyone with a positive point balance - you're simply ahead of the people with negative points)
  
  In the end, you just have to realize that if you're a newcomer to an established raid, you probably won't be getting anything except stuff that the more established raiders already have, until you've 'paid your dues'.

[TheLuminaire]

In the end, you just have to realize that if you're a newcomer to an established raid, you probably won't be getting anything except stuff that the more established raiders already have, until you've 'paid your dues'.
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This really is going to be the case with newcomers, or infrequent raiders no matter what kind of points system you have. It's one of those things you just have to 'bite the bullet' with.

Personally, it was more incentive to raid with that group as often as I could, to build my points, or hope for something that someone already had. Not everyone is as optimistic as me, however. :lol:

[kandrathe]

My opinion on this is...

---------

... that I think we are probably able to decide loot drops by /rand method with one usable item per cycle -- with some exceptions where we will need to allocate loot to help "All of us" proceed. But, for this to work, we all will need to be really open in communicating our feelings. I also think that regular participation should count for something, and I'm not sure how to do that fairly. If a rogue item drops in Ony/MC raid, I would hope the item goes to one of the people that has suffered with us for tha last 6 weeks, rather than a random 1st timer filling in the raid from Honorables.

When Onyxia dropped and I won the Sinew, I offered it to Porlupus because in my opinion, he had slogged it out in that hell hole more than I had. You might say, "Wow! You're generous." But, I'm surrounded by a bunch of great people that are just like me. Look at Sabra, when she couldn't get back to Onyxia to get her loot, she just said "Oh, well, give it to the next highest."

However the loot is allocated, it should be clear and reference-able by anyone coming on the raid. We should be able to say, "go to XYZ web page to undertand our raid loot rules, and that explain that exceptions will happen if certain items drop that will help our MT/MA or front line that the loot allocation is at the discretion of the raid leadership".

---------

... if we go for a points system, which from the discussion on the CA board I'm not sure is the common desire, then we should steal all the good brainpower invested by the Basiners, unless someone has a huge objection to some aspect of it.

Why?

We already raid with Basiners in Honorables, so they will be familiar with the system. They are smart people and have spent much effort thinking about it, and living with it and if it works then that is an endorsement.