RP PvP Woes

[JustAGuy]

Here's the low-down. When I started playing WoW, it was with the intention of re-creating and finishing my beta Paladin. I did so, and enjoyed most every moment (some were frustrating...). Before joining a server, I did some initial research (that is, join a server, check out the chat, guilds, and general feel of the server) and found that an RP server was my best choice for rebuilding my "betadin." I stand by my decision, and I had a great time in a great environment, mostly free from... well... "regular" server goings-on.

Fast forward a couple of months, and at level 60, I found myself wondering, "what do I do now?" As soon as I hit 60, doing quests became irrelevant. I practically cleared my log of everything that wasn't a blackrock depths or greater instance quest. Finding a raid group was quite the challenge for this server (as I was not in a real guild) and I wasn't really into running the instances. So, I tried Battlegrounds, and oh did I rejoice. PvP became THE thing to do with my 60 Paladin (aside from farm up reputation to get my Ram -- which was VERY useful in BGs. Not spending mana to cast a horse is great). Before long, my talent at playing my class was recognized and I joined the premier PvP guild on the server, "The Assault".

Now, the Assault was a good group of people, good at PvE, better at PvP. It was a small wonder that I was able to find a group of PvP centered players on an RP server. These people were quite dedicated, the lowest ranked in the guild being me (Sergeant-Major), highest being a few Field Marshals. They did so much PvP that the one Paladin gained 120k in contribution points in one week and his honour bar DID NOT MOVE. He should have been Grand Marshall that week, but his play partners were doing just as much PvP as him, cancelling out his accomplishments. These guys were good, VERY good.

Now, The Assault lost their share of matches, a good number of them too, to a Horde guild called "Mischief". These Mischief guys were good, damn good, the only real competition that the Assault had. As a matter of fact, the Assault was created to compete directly with the Mischief guild. Funny thing, two of the bug fixes in the 1.7 patch notes come directly from Assault vs. Mischief games.

I was in only a couple of games where one "exploit" in particular was used. It's the mind-control/blessing of protection trick. You have a Paladin with the mind control helm on, MC the flag carrier, then cast BoP on him. He then drops the flag and you are free to return in. Needless to say, whenever this "exploit" was used, Mischief went crazy. They just lost it. I've never seen so much whining on a forum in my life. They just kept going on and on and on, about how cheap the Assault was, and how they're cheaters and should be banned because they violated the ToS. BoP makes you drop the flag, simple fix is to make it so you can't BoP a mind controlled unit. Clearly an over-sight by Blizzard, but it's in the game, and no one else to my knowledge was creative enough to come up with this idea. There was also the "Judge's Gavel" "exploit" as well (NOT an exploit); when Judge's Gavel proc's, the flag carrier is banished, leaving him stuck so the alliance can converge on his position and decimate him. That's also fixed in 1.7 patch (it doesn't banish, instead it stuns).

So, once Mischief, and to a lesser extend the entire Horde, became aware of this reputation for "cheap" play they basically boycotted Battlegrounds. If they see an Assault guild player, they immediately /AFK out of the game. The Assault only used the MC/BoP trick a few times (and it didn't necessarily sway the outcome of games, either), but the damage was already done. It's been weeks since we had an Alterac Valley game, and it takes hours to get into a WSG, only to have the hordies /AFK right away. You get easy honour, but for a 4 hour wait... It's not worth it.

The competition is gone, they've all packed up and left. They went to the Ursin server and rolled Alliance. Funny thing, I went to Ursin and rolled Horde, unknowingly destined to face Mischief again.

So, my poor Paladin is back to square one. I'm not long to stay with the Assault since they are all about PvP and there's no PvP to had. Quite sad, actually. I spent so much time playing my Paladin, slowly gearing him toward PvP, and then this happens. The Horde gave up. They got fed up with losing and blamed it on an "exploit". They dominated BG games, easily, for a long time, until the Assault showed up. When it all changed, they got increasingly angry, and once the Assault got coordinated on Team Speak, it was no-contest for a while there. Now, there's nothing for my poor Pally to do, except feed his Ram some carrots.

So... I've moved on, as I previously mentioned, to Ursin, a new PvP server. I rolled a Shaman, to see how the other half lives. I have to say, I really, really enjoy it. Shamans are horribly over-powered in the early game, and it's a nice change from my Paladin, who's always been gimpy.

The thing I've realized is that PvP is what I want to do. Instance running and Questing is fun, sure, but PvP is the end goal. I want to become High Warlord. It's a goal that I might one day attain, but I'd be satisfied just being near the top. Now that there's no more PvP on my old server, my poor Paladin won't even be able to get Knight (I was so close too)...

[lfd]

It's the mind-control/blessing of protection trick. You have a Paladin with the mind control helm on, MC the flag carrier, then cast BoP on him. He then drops the flag and you are free to return in. Needless to say, whenever this "exploit" was used, Mischief went crazy. They just lost it.
...
it's in the game, and no one else to my knowledge was creative enough to come up with this idea
...
The Horde gave up. They got fed up with losing and blamed it on an "exploit".
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Quite frankly, your guild only has themselves to blame. You made your bed, now bubble up and hearth to it. I have zero sympathy for people who exploit, knowing that they are using an exploit, and then get annoyed because the opposing team simply refuses to play. I refuse to play with cheaters, too.

Dismissing it as simply being "creative" is what all exploiters do when they know that what they are doing is clearly not in the spirit of the game, as is saying "well, it's in the game, so Blizzard must think it's ok for me to do it".

[MongoJerry]

I was in only a couple of games where one "exploit" in particular was used. It's the mind-control/blessing of protection trick. You have a Paladin with the mind control helm on, MC the flag carrier, then cast BoP on him. He then drops the flag and you are free to return in. Needless to say, whenever this "exploit" was used, Mischief went crazy. They just lost it. I've never seen so much whining on a forum in my life. They just kept going on and on and on, about how cheap the Assault was, and how they're cheaters and should be banned because they violated the ToS. BoP makes you drop the flag, simple fix is to make it so you can't BoP a mind controlled unit. Clearly an over-sight by Blizzard, but it's in the game, and no one else to my knowledge was creative enough to come up with this idea. There was also the "Judge's Gavel" "exploit" as well (NOT an exploit); when Judge's Gavel proc's, the flag carrier is banished, leaving him stuck so the alliance can converge on his position and decimate him. That's also fixed in 1.7 patch (it doesn't banish, instead it stuns).

I'm sorry to say that this is your own guild's fault. These are exploits pure and simple. You can try to call it "oversights on Blizzard's part" and try to justify their use by saying that one can do it within the game without the use of 3rd party programs, but the bottom line is that these are exploits, and you can't expect other people to play with you when you use them. Plus, if your guild had to resort to using them to win, then your guild probably wasn't very good at PvPing to begin with.

On Tichondrius, we had a really good run of fair games of Warsong Gulch. Looking back, it was quite remarkable really, considering some of the animosity between some guilds on the server. But the bottom line was that people realized was that if people used cheap tactics like using the Mind Control/BoP trick, using the Judge's Gavel (It's possible that your guild invented those tricks, but I wouldn't bet on it -- they're pretty obvious and well known), or Mind Controling people out of the instance, then that would be the end of CTF on Tichondrius -- just like what happened on your server. So people didn't use the tricks, despite knowing all about them -- or in the rare cases where a person did use them, the person's teammates would shout at the person for using such cheap tactics. There was one game where things did blow up, however. Notorious seemed to pull out all the stops one game and seemed to use every cheap trick in the book, including having the flag carrier disconnect at a crucial point which made him appear to slide way over across the map. So, we pulled the "nuclear option" and placed our flag carrier in a special spot in the Horde base where the alliance can't get to or hit the flag carrier no matter what they try and then sent nine people off to kill the Notorious flag carrier. We ended up winning that cheating game, and the forums blew up as you can imagine.

But then, a remarkable thing happened. Cooler heads prevailed. It turns out that the Notorious player really did have a crappy computer and did disconnect at that moment. We also talked stuff out and discussed some of the ground rules on CTF and cleared the air a bit. And you know what happened? The next night TO and Notorious matched up again and TO beat them 3-2 fair and square in an incredibly fun two hour match that I still remember vividly. People went back to playing CTF, and we all had a ball with it. Unfortunately, people have recently been playing AV more, because the cp is so easy to get there and because the items you get for reputation are so godly. But still, people speak fondly of the old CTF games and say they'd love to go back if only the cp gains from it were comparable to what you get for AV.

It's easy to say, "all's fair in love and war" and pass off your opponent's complaints of dirty tricks as simple whining. But your poor paladin who will never gain knighthood is a testament to what can happen as the result of such shortsightedness.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I'm sorry to say that this is your own guild's fault.  These are exploits pure and simple.  You can try to call it "oversights on Blizzard's part" and try to justify their use by saying that one can do it within the game without the use of 3rd party programs, but the bottom line is that these are exploits, and you can't expect other people to play with you when you use them.  Plus, if your guild had to resort to using them to win, then your guild probably wasn't very good at PvPing to begin with.

On Tichondrius, we had a really good run of fair games of Warsong Gulch.  Looking back, it was quite remarkable really, considering some of the animosity between some guilds on the server.  But the bottom line was that people realized was that if people used cheap tactics like using the Mind Control/BoP trick, using the Judge's Gavel (It's possible that your guild invented those tricks, but I wouldn't bet on it -- they're pretty obvious and well known), or Mind Controling people out of the instance, then that would be the end of CTF on Tichondrius -- just like what happened on your server.  So people didn't use the tricks, despite knowing all about them -- or in the rare cases where a person did use them, the person's teammates would shout at the person for using such cheap tactics.  There was one game where things did blow up, however.  Notorious seemed to pull out all the stops one game and seemed to use every cheap trick in the book, including having the flag carrier disconnect at a crucial point which made him appear to slide way over across the map.  So, we pulled the "nuclear option" and placed our flag carrier in a special spot in the Horde base where the alliance can't get to or hit the flag carrier no matter what they try and then sent nine people off to kill the Notorious flag carrier.  We ended up winning that cheating game, and the forums blew up as you can imagine.

But then, a remarkable thing happened.  Cooler heads prevailed.  It turns out that the Notorious player really did have a crappy computer and did disconnect at that moment.  We also talked stuff out and discussed some of the ground rules on CTF and cleared the air a bit.  And you know what happened?  The next night TO and Notorious matched up again and TO beat them 3-2 fair and square in an incredibly fun two hour match that I still remember vividly.  People went back to playing CTF, and we all had a ball with it.  Unfortunately, people have recently been playing AV more, because the cp is so easy to get there and because the items you get for reputation are so godly.  But still, people speak fondly of the old CTF games and say they'd love to go back if only the cp gains from it were comparable to what you get for AV.

It's easy to say, "all's fair in love and war" and pass off your opponent's complaints of dirty tricks as simple whining.  But your poor paladin who will never gain knighthood is a testament to what can happen as the result of such shortsightedness.
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/clap /bow

[Bird]

Normally I would agree with you, and say it's silly that the Horde should get so pissy over a couple of exploits that are part of the game and anyone can do.

But the thing is - Horde doesn't have Paladins, so they don't have the same exploit open to them. Which gives Alliance a pretty large advantage if they do use it, an advantage that the Horde can never have.

So, while I think it's silly for the Horde to give up that easily, I can see where they're coming from.

[JustAGuy]

I'm sorry to say that this is your own guild's fault.  These are exploits pure and simple.  You can try to call it "oversights on Blizzard's part" and try to justify their use by saying that one can do it within the game without the use of 3rd party programs, but the bottom line is that these are exploits, and you can't expect other people to play with you when you use them.  Plus, if your guild had to resort to using them to win, then your guild probably wasn't very good at PvPing to begin with.

Personally, I don't, and never did, use of these so called exploits in BGs. The BoP/MC tactic is one of those things that is kind of ironic. You see, Shamans and Paladins are Faction specific classes, the Shaman has his abilities and the Paladin has his. Shamans can Wolf, Earthbind and Frost shock, giving them a great set of offensive utilities to work with in WSG. Paladins have absolutely nothing, really, for offense that helps in WSG, except for the Stun. What can a Paladin do? He can heal and cleanse, both of which are extremely important and useful in WSG. These are clearly defensive skills. The Paladin can also Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection, two more utilities that are defensive. So, from what has been implemented in game with regards to faction specific classes and skills, the Shaman appears to be for offense (jump in, grab the flag, slow everyone down to exit quickly) and the Paladin appears to be for defense (heal and cleanse others, and BoP the casters to help THEM get kills -- make the mages and priests rogue proof).

What's more defensive than stopping a runner with the flag?

When the Paladin finally finds a way to make his defensive skills useful, in a creative way, the forums explode and people label it an exploit. It's funny, the PvP set for the Paladin was nerfed so that it didn't grant the Hammer of Justice cooldown reduction. If a Paladin finds a way to make his play experience seem more involving, Blizzard, at the behest of the Horde, "nerf" it.

On Tichondrius, we had a really good run of fair games of Warsong Gulch.  Looking back, it was quite remarkable really, considering some of the animosity between some guilds on the server.  But the bottom line was that people realized was that if people used cheap tactics like using the Mind Control/BoP trick, using the Judge's Gavel (It's possible that your guild invented those tricks, but I wouldn't bet on it -- they're pretty obvious and well known), or Mind Controling people out of the instance, then that would be the end of CTF on Tichondrius -- just like what happened on your server.  So people didn't use the tricks, despite knowing all about them -- or in the rare cases where a person did use them, the person's teammates would shout at the person for using such cheap tactics.  There was one game where things did blow up, however.  Notorious seemed to pull out all the stops one game and seemed to use every cheap trick in the book, including having the flag carrier disconnect at a crucial point which made him appear to slide way over across the map.  So, we pulled the "nuclear option" and placed our flag carrier in a special spot in the Horde base where the alliance can't get to or hit the flag carrier no matter what they try and then sent nine people off to kill the Notorious flag carrier.  We ended up winning that cheating game, and the forums blew up as you can imagine.

But then, a remarkable thing happened.  Cooler heads prevailed.  It turns out that the Notorious player really did have a crappy computer and did disconnect at that moment.  We also talked stuff out and discussed some of the ground rules on CTF and cleared the air a bit.  And you know what happened?  The next night TO and Notorious matched up again and TO beat them 3-2 fair and square in an incredibly fun two hour match that I still remember vividly.  People went back to playing CTF, and we all had a ball with it.  Unfortunately, people have recently been playing AV more, because the cp is so easy to get there and because the items you get for reputation are so godly.  But still, people speak fondly of the old CTF games and say they'd love to go back if only the cp gains from it were comparable to what you get for AV.

I agree that the Assault probably didn't come up with the tricks first, but I'm pretty sure it was a discovery, and not a "hey, we can use this cheap trick and screw the horde!" It was more of a "I just mind controlled this guy. Hey, what happens if..."

The thing is, the MC/BoP isn't a viable tactic to use. As far as I know MC helmets are on a significant cooldown timer, and they don't always work. Even when it works, it doesn't guarantee a victory, or even a flag recovery. It just means that the flag is dropped, if executed successfully. I've even seen the Horde defend against it, successfully. All that is required is to stun or interrupt the Paladin (not that difficult a task).

As far as the Gavel goes, it's a weapon that the horde and alliance can use. It's like complaining about the druid's ability to clear and snares and debuffs just by shapeshift (GAG, so terrible that idea is!).

I must stress, also, that the Assault did not use the MC/BoP trick exclusively for winning or turning the tide. They barely used it at all. The problem is that just by having used it, cooler heads WERE NOT ABLE to prevail, as the horde quickly packed up and left (relatively speaking). There was also a situation where the Assault was winning consistently, and this was clearly frustrating the opposition. The Assault became the primary targets for the Horde (not just Mischief) on the realm and on the forum. For example, another guild executed a low-numbers raid on Thunder Bluff. There just happened to be a few Assault (3, I think) members partaking in the raid. The raid failed because there were too few people involved (25-30?) and the Horde showed up to defend their territory (as they should). So what happens on the forum? You get a thread called "Nice Try Assault", and screenshots of certain players dancing over Assault member corpses. It was quite sad, as the people taking the screenshots couldn't actually beat the Assault members 1 on 1, or even in a team, yet they take the screenshots to laud some sort of false superiority over them after a zerg of guards had taken them down.

It's easy to say, "all's fair in love and war" and pass off your opponent's complaints of dirty tricks as simple whining.  But your poor paladin who will never gain knighthood is a testament to what can happen as the result of such shortsightedness.
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Shortsightedness? Sure, but it's on both sides' part. The Horde gave up -- it was in part because they felt like the Assault were cheating, but it was also that they were being dominated. They used the MC/BoP as a cop-out. They had their run as undisputed kings of the server until the Assault showed up, and then it all ended.

Thankfully, there is a new crop of 51-60 players that want to PvP. There was an AV held today, and as of this writing, it's still going on. Sadly, though, in order to get the Horde to play, the Alliance had to make weird concessions, like, "not over powering the Horde in group combat". What that means is, there are 31 horde and 40 Alliance, so 9 people on the Alliance side have to sit out. I guess some AV is better than none...

[Quark]

Personally, I don't, and never did, use of these so called exploits in BGs.

Blizzard declared MC/BoP an exploit themselves. Drop the "so called" part in your excuses.

When the Paladin finally finds a way to make his defensive skills useful, in a creative way, the forums explode and people label it an exploit.

I don't know anyone who has decided this was a fair tactic. In Aeternum used it once, once on our server, and even though cooler heads prevailed they still paid for it for a month in game and in the forums.

It's funny, the PvP set for the Paladin was nerfed so that it didn't grant the Hammer of Justice cooldown reduction. If a Paladin finds a way to make his play experience seem more involving, Blizzard, at the behest of the Horde, "nerf" it.

I don't see how Blizzard's sense of balance is an excuse for exploiting.

As far as the Gavel goes, it's a weapon that the horde and alliance can use. It's like complaining about the druid's ability to clear and snares and debuffs just by shapeshift (GAG, so terrible that idea is!).

Many people consider the Gavel unfair use. If you use it, don't expect those people to want to play with you. Simple.

[NotSoDarklord]

Er... quark blizzard said it was not considered to be unfair or exploiting. MC+BoP is FINE according to them. (Or at least it was for a good 2 months or so that BG was out, if they changed their stance it was a recent change..


edit: typo, there are NOT two c's in change

[Quark]

Er... quark blizzard said it was not considered to be unfair or exploiting.  MC+BoP is FINE according to them.  (Or at least it was for a good 2 months or so that BG was out, if they changed their stance it was a recent change..
edit: typo, there are NOT two c's in change
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Hmm, now I remember. There was a post detailing how a GM stated it was an exploit, after being briefed specifically on that issue, but I never saw a CM post anything on it. So it's probably a matter of mixed signals once more.

[MongoJerry]

Personally, I don't, and never did, use of these so called exploits in BGs. The BoP/MC tactic is one of those things that is kind of ironic. You see, Shamans and Paladins are Faction specific classes, the Shaman has his abilities and the Paladin has his. Shamans can Wolf, Earthbind and Frost shock, giving them a great set of offensive utilities to work with in WSG. Paladins have absolutely nothing, really, for offense that helps in WSG, except for the Stun. What can a Paladin do? He can heal and cleanse, both of which are extremely important and useful in WSG. These are clearly defensive skills. The Paladin can also Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection, two more utilities that are defensive. So, from what has been implemented in game with regards to faction specific classes and skills, the Shaman appears to be for offense (jump in, grab the flag, slow everyone down to exit quickly) and the Paladin appears to be for defense (heal and cleanse others, and BoP the casters to help THEM get kills -- make the mages and priests rogue proof).

What's more defensive than stopping a runner with the flag?

When the Paladin finally finds a way to make his defensive skills useful, in a creative way, the forums explode and people label it an exploit. It's funny, the PvP set for the Paladin was nerfed so that it didn't grant the Hammer of Justice cooldown reduction. If a Paladin finds a way to make his play experience seem more involving, Blizzard, at the behest of the Horde, "nerf" it.

You use the term "defensive" in two different ways. The first way, you suggest that a paladin's role is to enable the other members of his or her team to do what they need to do by healing them, cleansing them, and buffing them. This is a reasonable suggestion. Where you go astray, however, is by assuming that since a paladin is a "defensive" player that it means they should be playing base or flag defence. That's not the case at all.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean by using the example of my priestess's role in our group's CTF matches. Our group's standard strategy is to start with eight people rushing the middle and with two people going directly for the Alliance flag. The two-man team usually consists of me and the designated flag carrier, usually a druid or shaman. Imagine this scenario (based on a real event): I and our shaman flag carrier ride along the east side of the zone to the upper part of the Alliance base. The shaman is about 10 steps ahead of me, runs into the base, jumps down into the flag room, grabs the flag, and is immediately caught in a freezing trap. The hunter and mage defenders come out of hiding and begin to power up aimed shots and pyroblasts. Seeing this, I dispell the freezing trap as I enter the room from the lower doorway (I find entering from different entrances disorients defenders greatly) and Psychic Scream both the hunter and mage. The now freed shaman drops an earthbind totem and runs out the door with me trailing behind him, giving him a PW:Shield. It's a good thing I did that, too, because a rogue who had just recently rezed from the Alliance graveyard came over and ambushed the shaman just as he was exiting the base and was about to ghostwolf. I cast a Flash Heal on the shaman to heal him from the damage he's taking from the rogue who's chain stunning and hitting him. I then get poly'd by the no longer feared mage who's coming up behind me and I see the mage and hunter running up to help kill the shaman flag carrier. At the moment when I see that all three Alliance players are foolishly close to one other, I use my PvP trinket to break the polymorph and Psychic Scream all three Alliance players away. The rogue breaks fear with his trinket as soon as he can, but it's too late. The shaman has switched to ghostwolf and I'm Mind Flaying the rogue to slow him down so he can't catch the shaman. I die in a hail of bullets and fireballs, but our flag carrier has broken out into open ground to where the rest of the party is waiting to escort him back to our base.

Now, the question in that scenario is: Is my priest playing offensively or defensively? In the first way that you used the term "defensive," my priestess is playing defensively. That is, she's dedicated to protecting and enabling our team's flag carrier. However, in the second sense, she is very much an offensive weapon in that she plays a crucial role in capturing the opponent's flag and carrying it back to the base.

Regarding Paladins, we've already had a long discussion about their role in CTF matches a while back, so I don't want to reiterate everything here. The summary is that, while you might complain about how shamans can ghostwolf and earthbind and all that, you can't imagine how powerful having plate wearing invincible dispellers and healers is until you have to face a team with a good group of them. Don't try to justifying using exploits by playing the "Shamans are so much better than paladins" card, because that BS sure isn't going to fly with me.

[JustAGuy]

Regarding Paladins, we've already had a long discussion about their role in CTF matches a while back, so I don't want to reiterate everything here.  The summary is that, while you might complain about how shamans can ghostwolf and earthbind and all that, you can't imagine how powerful having plate wearing invincible dispellers and healers is until you have to face a team with a good group of them.  Don't try to justifying using exploits by playing the "Shamans are so much better than paladins" card, because that BS sure isn't going to fly with me.
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I'm not justifying an exploit, I think it's cheap and I don't use it. If I had the ability to use it, I wouldn't, since it's pretty cheap regardless of whether it's an exploit or not. My guild did it a few times, in instances where it didn't necessarily cause one side to win or lose, it was just done. The key thing is that certain guilds got wind of it and there were overreactions. My guild does not continue to use this tactic, nor did they, after the initial backlash.

I didn't complain about Ghostwolf or totems or shocks. I merely stated that the Shaman is different, they have their abilities that are seemingly very well suited for PvP encounters, Warsong Gulch being a prime example. The Paladin is a 12 second invincible tank, an ability that is greatly useful, but is defensive in nature. The Paladin is a defensive creature, almost completely so, as he only has a few talents or skills that all do VERY little damage in PvP.

Shamans are much different than Paladins, but I didn't say they were better overall. The two classes are geared toward different play styles. If you were to take a Paladin and play him like a Shaman, you're going to have a poorly played Paladin. As far as CTF tactics go, I play both sides, a Paladin and a Shaman. The Shaman is much more fun to play, as he has abilities that help him capture flags and kills players, IN ADDITION to being a great defensive player (through the use of totems, flash heals and shocks). The Paladin is more one-dimensional, and because of all of the proc-related skills, playing him is more frustrating and less involved when playing in an offensive style (that is, a player killing style).

Now, where you've gone astray is where you believe I insinuated that the Paladin should play "defense" all the time, as in, stay in the flag room and keep horde from trying to capture our flag. That's actually not a very good tactic, as Paladins have no real method of crowd control or catching runners (which is what a flag protector must do).

I play my Paladin for an offensive goal, that being capturing the flag, but his role is inherently defensive. I protect, that's defending.

My role, as a Paladin, is always, and I mean ALWAYS, to escort the carrier while on offense. I follow the "big" Paladin and heal him (our Paladins are Field Marshalls wearing the huge PvP sets that grant massive stamina boosts -- they've got over 5k hps unbuffed). We run in, either seperated, or together, and I just cleanse, BoF, and Heal, all day long. In many situations, I use Divine Shield to protect myself from those who peel off to incapacitate me, so I can CONTINUE to heal the carrier. I use my stopwatch and drink swiftness potions to stay close at all times. It's very simple for me, and the tactic works when my skills aren't on cooldown (and the rest of the team helps once we reach mid-field). It's usually 2 or 3 on offense, because as you know, 5 on offense and 5 on defense rarely works.

Blessing of Freedom, Cleanse, Heal, Lay on Hands if things go south (usually, if for some reason, we decided to go up cave route back to our flag post) is all I can do, and all I'm responsible for. When I'm with the guild, this leads to wins. When I'm not with the guild, my efforts are wasted (for some reason, the Alliance really sucks in pick-up groups. Really sucks).

Despite me being a huge contributor on offense, my role is always defensive. I rarely go for kills, as that's not what my class (at the moment) is suited for. I stun, I cleanse, I heal; that's all I can do, and these are all defensive, despite where I am or what our end goal is.

[Zarathustra]

Shortsightedness? Sure, but it's on both sides' part. The Horde gave up -- it was in part because they felt like the Assault were cheating, but it was also that they were being dominated. They used the MC/BoP as a cop-out. They had their run as undisputed kings of the server until the Assault showed up, and then it all ended. [right][snapback]86786[/snapback][/right]

How long have you had that horn you're tooting? Are you leasing, or do you own?</sarcasm>

Justify it any way you like. I don't believe anyone has come up with a good reason why this is a valid tactic. It is an exploit.

[kandrathe]

I'm not going to discuss the specifics of exploits, rather address your question "Where do I go now?"

First it looks like you've painted yourself into a corner with the game. There is only one little pond (PvP) that you like to swim in, and your guild pee'd in it so no one will play with you. Sounds like cleaning up the pond isn't going to work, since your old adversary's won't trust you anymore.

Here are your choices as I see it;

1) Disassociate yourself from the guild and denounce exploits and join the next best PvP Alliance guild on the server. If you were never the one to do the exploits, then your name should be clean and only your current guild wears the Scarlet A.

2) Expand your love of the game to more content. If you haven't attempted Onyxia, MC, BWL, and the new upcoming raid dungeons, then you are missing a big portion of the end game.

3) You are on a RP server, so RP. What would your character do? Look for other ponds of joy within WOW, re-roll on a different server, or quit.

[falconesse]

Er... quark blizzard said it was not considered to be unfair or exploiting.&nbsp; MC+BoP is FINE according to them.&nbsp; (Or at least it was for a good 2 months or so that BG was out, if they changed their stance it was a recent change..
edit: typo, there are NOT two c's in change
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Both are exploits:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...tmp=1#post60584

See page five of that thread for them adding Judge's Gavel: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...ugs&T=60584&P=5

The same thing is happening on Feathermoon. Our forums used to be great - lots of RP, only a handful of idiots. Now we have threads upon threads of arguments about Warsong Gulch and Alterac Valley, and cross-faction arguing. It's kind of sad. It makes me miss the days when the biggest flame thread on there was started by our resident village idiot, Soulblade - the Night Elf hunter both factions loved to hate.

[JustAGuy]

I'm not going to discuss the specifics of exploits, rather address your question "Where do I go now?"

Thanks! The original post wasn't really about justifying the exploits, it was more of a mis-worded cry for help, seeing as my poor pally had become goal-less.

First it looks like you've painted yourself into a corner with the game.&nbsp; There is only one little pond (PvP) that you like to swim in, and your guild pee'd in it so no one will play with you.&nbsp; Sounds like cleaning up the pond isn't going to work, since your old adversary's won't trust you anymore.&nbsp;

You are quite correct, since the PvP aspect had grown to become my favourite aspect. Now, the real competition has left, and it's much harder to get into Warsong and practically impossible for an AV to start up.

Here are your choices as I see it;

1)&nbsp; Disassociate yourself from the guild and denounce exploits and join the next best PvP Alliance guild on the server.&nbsp; If you were never the one to do the exploits, then your name should be clean and only your current guild wears the Scarlet A.

I was never the one to use the exploits. I'm likely to leave the guild and join the other Instance Raiding guilds, for reasons stated in your option #2. This RP server really isn't a hot-bed for PvP action. I was lucky to find this group that let me join in on the consistent action. Most of the time, there's a WSG game going on, but if I play in a pick-up group, it's usually a loss. As I said before, the pick-up Alliance groups suck. They just blow. Hard.

2)&nbsp; Expand your love of the game to more content.&nbsp; If you haven't attempted Onyxia, MC, BWL, and the new upcoming raid dungeons, then you are missing a big portion of the end game.

I've only done a few of the high end instances, but not any of the ones you've listed. I am reluctant to go because my gear is so mediocre, and my Paladin's role isn't as fulfilling as I feel that it should be. It's been said many times that playing the poor Pally is a lot of waiting and damage based on timers/luck. The upcoming patch (which I've played on the test server) should help with the Hammer of Wrath, but overall, it's tough to "get up" for playing him these days.

3)&nbsp; You are on a RP server, so RP.&nbsp; What would your character do?&nbsp; Look for other ponds of joy within WOW, re-roll on a different server, or quit.

I've stated before that my reasons for choosing an RP server were for the players' maturity levels, not the actual RPing. The reasoning for the assumed elevated aggregate maturity level for RPers was that, in order to RP, you have to have the intellectual capacity to stay in character. This is generally my feeling while playing on an RP server, and for my first run at retail WoW, making a character on an RP server was a decision I do not regret. It's just unfortunate that things unfolded the way they did after I had developed such a taste for PvP.

I've since rolled on Ursin, a new PvP server. I've started a Horde Shaman, and NO JOKE OR EXAGGERATION, he is out DPSing my Paladin. He's 27, and he's out DPSing my 60 Paladin (Who uses the Ice Barbed Spear, a 53 dps polearm).

[Icebird]

I think only one guild on our server has used this exploit (or maybe only one that people have complained about), and their reputation is already in the sewers after getting caught red-handed stealing another guild's MC instance (while I still haven't heard on whether is cascading is condidered verboten by Blizzard yet, using another guild's instance without telling them certainly seems worthy of contempt). WSG still thrives however despite the accusations.

One thing that struck me from MongoJerry's post: players preferring AV on his server because of the better contribution points. We can never get the Horde into AV on our server without a lot of begging, because they feel they get so much more honour in Warsong Gulch. (Someone was saying last night that the Honour they got from 5 hours in AV they could have got in 1 in Warsong).

And why does PvP always have to be about battlegrounds anyway? I had one of my more satisfying PvP encounters last night far from Warsong Gulch. After getting 3-1 in CTF in about 20 minutes by one of the very good Horde teams on our server I went back to farming Demonic Runes in Felwood. Out of boredom I decide to flag-up while farming (this is a PvE server).

Halfway through a fight with satyr I got ambushed by a shadow priest. After the initial "WTF?" moment before remembering I was flagged I had a fun little battle, with my seduces and fears against his fears and shields. I lost (should have insta-summoned the Felhunter I realised after the fact) but it was a fun fight.

Chris

[NotSoDarklord]

bleh. Blizzard's ability to give more than one stance on an issue is getting annoying. I've seen a CM and GM response on the issue saying that it wasn't (back when it was first showing up ingame). But clearly they flipflopped.

[oldmandennis]

I am reluctant to go because my gear is so mediocre, and my Paladin's role isn't as fulfilling as I feel that it should be. It's been said many times that playing the poor Pally is a lot of waiting and damage based on timers/luck. The upcoming patch (which I've played on the test server) should help with the Hammer of Wrath, but overall, it's tough to "get up" for playing him these days.

Err, if you are waiting for Hammer of Wrath to make PVE raiding worthwhile, then don't bother. You shouldn't be damageing anything 20-40 man, but embracinig your inner heal/clense/buff bot. But if you can do that, don't worry too much about your gear, one under equipped pally out of 40 shouldn't slow down a decent raid group.

[JustAGuy]

Err, if you are waiting for Hammer of Wrath to make PVE raiding worthwhile, then don't bother.&nbsp; You shouldn't be damageing anything 20-40 man, but embracinig your inner heal/clense/buff bot.&nbsp; But if you can do that, don't worry too much about your gear, one under equipped pally out of 40 shouldn't slow down a decent raid group.
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I played it a bit on the test server. It crit'd for 1200 a couple of times, but that was against level 55 mobs. I won't be so nice against players or elite 60+s. In practice, Hammer of Wrath is just a gimpy exorcism for more than undeads that takes time to cast. It's gimpy because of the 1 second cast. Exorcism is a funtastic wonderland, because it's instant, has ridiculous range, and does holy damage. Now, if HoW was instant, it would be an all-around wonderful finisher. Since there's a cast time, despite it being a short cast time, it's pretty much a runner-finisher only. It's nice to have been thrown a bone, but it still doesn't address the real class' combat issues. So yeah, I heal/cleanse/buff therefore I am Paladin.

Here's a tidbit that returns me to the topic of my original post: I had a run-in with the Hordies that left my RP server on my new Horde home of Ursin. They were in the 21-30 WSG bracket, they were alliance and we were horde. Guess what they did? MC/BoP!

I thought it was funny, ironic, hypocritical, sickening, and just plain ridiculous all at once. I guess, if you can't beat em', join em'. Despite the game taking 2 hours or so, we won. :)

[Arnulf]

Here's a tidbit that returns me to the topic of my original post: I had a run-in with the Hordies that left my RP server on my new Horde home of Ursin. They were in the 21-30 WSG bracket, they were alliance and we were horde. Guess what they did? MC/BoP!

I thought it was funny, ironic, hypocritical, sickening, and just plain ridiculous all at once. I guess, if you can't beat em', join em'. Despite the game taking 2 hours or so, we won. :)
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It goes to show something very important about human nature: it is easy to act the indignant one and many people are quick to judge. Probably we are all hypocrites.