The Pubbie Point of View

[kandrathe]

I don't go on pubbie runs unless they are lead by Mirajj :P (or at least someone who I trust that has the authority to set the rules and enforce them).

[Mavfin]

I don't go on pubbie runs unless they are lead by Mirajj :P (or at least someone who I trust that has the authority to set the rules and enforce them).
[right][snapback]87614[/snapback][/right]

Yeah, I'll lead pubbie runs, or go on ones led by someone I know. I usually don't join random ones. I go with people who I know will set the rules and boot troublemakers if the need arises.

I meet lots of good (and not-so-good) people this way, w/o the sheer frustration of complete random pubbie runs.

[Bolty]

3) Pace. To fast players it's self-evident that playing fast keeps people focussed and keeps game rewards high. To slow players it's self-evident that playing cautiously minimises risks, saves time spent on unnecessary corpse runs and ensures greater effectiveness. In truth for the vast majority of the game both styles work fine and it's simply a matter of personal taste.[right][snapback]87565[/snapback][/right]

This applies heavily towards me - I fall very deeply into the former camp and only feel "happy" when playing at the very fastest pace possible by a group. When in pubbie or guild groups, I find myself grating against any slow-moving bunch of players and this of course causes conflict. Many Lurkers are aware of this - some like it because I will "push" a group, others find me a total jerk. Like in a few of those groups where I, as a Priest, kept pulling because I got tired of the "ready?" "ready?" stuff before every pull. :) It really comes down to what pace you're used to.

To me, the game is most enjoyable when a group is pushing its envelope of what it can handle. This is the only way to keep the game from becoming a snoozefest to me personally*, as I'm more into the challenge and thrill of beating something hard through superior group tactics than the social experience. MMOs allow for group tactics to make a difference in a way that few other RPGs can match.

So if a group is overleveled for an instance, no problem. Just see how fast you can run it, then - push yourselves. There's always some way to challenge yourself. Heck, even a group of 60's can challenge itself in the Deadmines by trying to see how fast they can get to VC and kill him - and then beat their previous time. :)

-Bolty

*Exception: when I'm exploring a new area I've never been to. And I try to make allowances for those in my party who fall under that scenario, happily explaining where we're going, what we're doing, what to look out for, etc. That doesn't bother me at all. Remember, Explorer personalities like to "show off" their game knowledge. :P

[Tal]

This applies heavily towards me - I fall very deeply into the former camp and only feel "happy" when playing at the very fastest pace possible by a group.  When in pubbie or guild groups, I find myself grating against any slow-moving bunch of players and this of course causes conflict.  Many Lurkers are aware of this - some like it because I will "push" a group, others find me a total jerk.  Like in a few of those groups where I, as a Priest, kept pulling because I got tired of the "ready?" "ready?" stuff before every pull.  :)  It really comes down to what pace you're used to.[right][snapback]87740[/snapback][/right]

*whistles innocently* Nope. Never done this on my priestess. Nuh uh. Unless you have screenshot proof and then its Quark's fault. ;)

So if a group is overleveled for an instance, no problem.  Just see how fast you can run it, then - push yourselves.  There's always some way to challenge yourself.  Heck, even a group of 60's can challenge itself in the Deadmines by trying to see how fast they can get to VC and kill him - and then beat their previous time.  :)

[right][snapback]87740[/snapback][/right]

A mage friend and I made it to the ship in about 15. Of course we had one helluva aoe fest when we got to the ship. ;)

[Bolty]

*whistles innocently* Nope. Never done this on my priestess. Nuh uh. Unless you have screenshot proof and then its Quark's fault. ;)[right][snapback]87741[/snapback][/right]

Tal, you have an added challenge, though. Your two mains are both tank characters, used to leading the pack and controlling the pace (at least for most 5-mans). This is the playstyle you've become accustomed to, and playing a Priest is the opposite end of the spectrum. The primary healer is the LAST role who should ever be pulling. But you know that. Shame on you. Not that I'd ever do that. *cough*

Anyway, I can't imagine how it would be for someone playing for months as tank characters, then switching to a non-tank class. Not being able to control the pace must drive you nuts (as it frustrates me sometimes, and I don't have nearly as much tank experience).

I think WoW party pacing is much like driving. Anyone going faster than what you like is insane, and anyone going slower is a moron. That pretty much sums it up.

-Bolty

[Tal]

Tal, you have an added challenge, though.  Your two mains are both tank characters, used to leading the pack and controlling the pace (at least for most 5-mans).  This is the playstyle you've become accustomed to, and playing a Priest is the opposite end of the spectrum.  The primary healer is the LAST role who should ever be pulling.  But you know that.  Shame on you.  Not that I'd ever do that.  *cough*[right][snapback]87756[/snapback][/right]

Heh. I drive mages insane when I pull with Shalandrax. So long as the healer has a good amount of mana and there is no CC needed then I'm pulling. They'll call out "Drinking!" to which my reply is "No worries - pulling!" For some reason about half the time the mage stops drinking and starts casting. :blink: Others, like Skan, will continue to drink secure in the knowledge that, despite her slight build, Shalandrax doesn't fall over easily. ;)

Anyway, I can't imagine how it would be for someone playing for months as tank characters, then switching to a non-tank class.  Not being able to control the pace must drive you nuts (as it frustrates me sometimes, and I don't have nearly as much tank experience).[right][snapback]87756[/snapback][/right]

It can drive me nuts. Especially if the healing has been light and I have mana. I will poke the maintank though if they're not pulling. ;) And I would NEVER pull as a priest *he says with his fingers crossed behind his back* ;) Its FUN seeing the tanks scramble! ;)

I think WoW party pacing is much like driving.  Anyone going faster than what you like is insane, and anyone going slower is a moron.  That pretty much sums it up.

-Bolty
[right][snapback]87756[/snapback][/right]

Anadrol is insane. Yep definitely insane. Thats why I love when he MT's :w00t:

[Bolty]

Heh. I drive mages insane when I pull with Shalandrax. So long as the healer has a good amount of mana and there is no CC needed then I'm pulling. They'll call out "Drinking!" to which my reply is "No worries - pulling!" For some reason about half the time the mage stops drinking and starts casting. :blink:[right][snapback]87758[/snapback][/right]

But...that's exactly what you're SUPPOSED to be doing! I'd expect no less when playing my mage in a party.

Mages/Warlocks tend to think the world revolves around them and that the whole party should stop to let them get back mana. That without their extra DPS, the group will wipe for sure. Hence the "oh noes, I better stop drinking and get in there, that tank is an idiot" mentality some of them have.

Reality is, of course, that they can sit out the first 20 seconds of a fight without having that big of an impact on the fight at all. If a sheep or seduce were needed, the tank wouldn't/shouldn't have started the pull in the first place. Otherwise, shut up, sit down, and drink (or Evocate). Hell, if you're a Warlock, just Life Tap a few times and the healer will throw you a Renew/Regrowth for the win.

When I'm tanking - if the healer's got mana, I'm moving. Try to keep up...all I have to do is get better at playing tank characters and I'll go even faster. Have to get stance switching down, I'm not good at it yet and rely more on shooting to pull.

Beating an instance in 2 hrs 15 minutes by pushing the envelope > beating an instance in 3 hours by playing super safely and cautiously. And you might learn more by being in pressure situations more often, too - nothing like wiping to make you think about what you could have done better for next time.

-Bolty

[Tal]

But...that's exactly what you're SUPPOSED to be doing!  I'd expect no less when playing my mage in a party.

Mages/Warlocks tend to think the world revolves around them and that the whole party should stop to let them get back mana.  That without their extra DPS, the group will wipe for sure.  Hence the "oh noes, I better stop drinking and get in there, that tank is an idiot" mentality some of them have.

Reality is, of course, that they can sit out the first 20 seconds of a fight without having that big of an impact on the fight at all. 
[right][snapback]87767[/snapback][/right]

Especially when it gives me time to lock aggro on the mobs before they open up. ^.^

[Jarulf]

Regarding the pace, I feel there is more to it than just "as fast as possible" or "be carfull". You can push the envelop even when you stay between fights. You can pay on the limit even if it takes long and so on. I personally like to socialize as well when playing, sure, sometimes you want to see what you can pull of, but sometimes one simply want to have fun. To then have a break at times and have time to actually tell something or ponder over something else, or just say something quite irellevant, just for the sake of it, is part of the game to me. Otherwise I go play minesweeper trying to beat the clock.

[martini]

I like going fast sometimes too... but I've had groups where we specifically say that some people are new to the place, and we designate a puller, and while we're in the middle of rolling on a blue drop, the priest runs up ahead and shackles something. That is annoying. If you want to move faster, all it takes is saying "hey guys, I think we can pick up the pace a little, mind if I pull for a bit?" Even pubbies deserve to be communicated with. :)

[Mirajj]

I've taken over the pulling in some of the pubby groups I've been in, but only as a raid leader. ;)

But that's my feeling on it. The MT's health is full? The MH has all their mana? No CC needed? Start the party.

I have a pulling macro. You will see it often if I feel the pace is slowing and could/should be faster. ;)

[Kevin]

Heh. I drive mages insane when I pull with Shalandrax. So long as the healer has a good amount of mana and there is no CC needed then I'm pulling. They'll call out "Drinking!" to which my reply is "No worries - pulling!" For some reason about half the time the mage stops drinking and starts casting. :blink: Others, like Skan, will continue to drink secure in the knowledge that, despite her slight build, Shalandrax doesn't fall over easily. ;)
[right][snapback]87758[/snapback][/right]

This post ended up all over the place...

And yet you always poke me and ask "Am I going to fast" and most of the time I think you are going to slow. :) I've never been on a run with a tal tank that I thought went too fast but I've been on them where I thought they went too slow. But then again I've tanked things at uber snail pace so I don't say anything I've always figured that you knew someone needed things to go slower so I just shut up and heal. :)


The group I grew up with on Gnolack (Sabramage, Littledude, Aleri, and whoever else could make it, Mirajj a lot of the time but we had lots of others in that slot) started as a slow group mainly because we were doing a lot of exploring, we stopped and discussed a lot of pulls we tried a lot of new things. But now when we get the rare chance to get back together we will fly through some stuff, even if we've never seen it before. We see things once and we just know each other and what we can do. I will go charging in and thunderclap and then 2 sheep will be staring at me while I change stances and demoralizing shout (and if I miss on my swing and don't have TC rage I'll switch and dem shout though sometimes I break a sheep). They know that if I start backing up with all the non elites on me that the AoE is going to fly and that any elites that are not CC'd are going to be stuck on me. Sometimes they wait for me to call AoE sometimes I call AoE when it's all non CCable elites too. Heck sometimes AoE is started on groups like that because they think I've got it all locked well enough. But if you saw how slow we moved the first time in BRD you might think different people are behind the controls when we go and help someone do a jailbreak run now.

Oddly enough it's when I'm the healer that I get most frustrated at slow paces. Yeah I'm at half mana but I've just healed us through 3 times the mob we are about to face, just go! :) Of course some of that is because I'm a druid healer and I've healed a lot with her without a mage around to give me water or I've asked mages for water and not gotten any. So it's always my morning glory dew that I'm drinking and I'm not wasting a precious morning glory dew at half mana (though I have plenty of the stuff now but at the time...). I have innervate you can pull with me at no mana and I can still heal you if nothing goes wrong.

Of course since I'm playing with so many paladins that just don't get how a druid heals lately I've become an ineffiecient druid healer now. I end up throwing out a regrowth early so that the paladins don't cast some heal spell, but this means that even if I cast a regrowth 2 ranks below my top that I run the chance of the HoT portion not doing anything so I waste mana (regrowth is only mana efficient if the front end crits and doesn't overheal or if you get 80% of the HoT to actually heal). If I use a healing touch, even a lower rank to avoid overhealing and wasted mana the paladin will through a heal in there anyway and I'll waste time stopping a cast that was 3.2 seconds in and hence .3 seconds from landing or I'll overheal. Hell I was on a run where a rogue was bandaging after fights at times and yet they were at 70% health. My HoT will heal you before the next fight silly person just because I didn't cast it on you right away or use an AoE heal to top you off... And of course since I don't have a quick cast smaller heal (I can go lower ranks to finish off the healing but it is 3.5 seconds) after the fight is when I want a paladin to throw out a heal to help top people off but that is when they never do. More people need to learn how druids heal. We aren't priests and we aren't paladins and we aren't shaman but we will keep you healthy, as tal who tanked several five mans where I was the only person there with a healing spell. I appreciate the healing help when I have 3 people that need healing but in that case you as the paladin should be hitting that rogue for me not the main tank who I am in the middle of casting on. Secondary healers should be working on the lower priority targets first unless it is an emergency, in which case you use the fast emergency heals to buy more time. I'm aware of the warlock casting hellfire so I'm going to be healing them, but yes that rogue or paladin who is getting hurt is not going to be the next person I heal because I'll probably need to hit the MT, so please do hit them for me. Taranna shoots a lot of wrath in raids with another healer around because all I usually do is throw a rejuvination on people because the priests and paladins are going to heal everything else. The execption is when I get mana inneffiecent and do a lot of regrowths where I let the HoT part do nothing.

[kandrathe]

*Exception: when I'm exploring a new area I've never been to.  And I try to make allowances for those in my party who fall under that scenario, happily explaining where we're going, what we're doing, what to look out for, etc.  That doesn't bother me at all.  Remember, Explorer personalities like to "show off" their game knowledge.  :P
[right][snapback]87740[/snapback][/right]

I guess I don't have a problem with speed, even if I'm a little unfamiliar with an instance. Teamspeak is wonderful for moving really fast.

I get upset when things go wrong and blame is cast when shortcuts are made with the assumption that everyone is as experienced as the ones wanting to run at high speed. I guess that goes along with those that also have the expectation that everyone play at an A+ level everywhere all the time.

I get irked when it's a wipe due to recklessness after 1 1/2 hours invested with no hope of returning to where we left off due to re-pops.

I get a little miffed when we repeatedly wipe at the same place by repeating the prior failed tactics without stopping to discuss a new strategy.

But, I take a deep breath and remember its a game that I enjoy very much and by the time I exhale I'm calm again.

[Tuftears]

I'll admit that I tend to go a little slower, at least at first. For any group that's not worked with each other for a while, you need time to get accustomed to everyone's style. The first pulls provide that time. So I'll go over the tactics, make sure everyone's lined up, and have the puller kick the pull off. Once we get our rhythm, then we can go a lot faster, and it gets a lot more fun.

Safety > chaos, in my opinion - where chaos is that you don't know if someone's going to peel that creature off the healer or you're going to have to, or what mob you should attack first of the ones that are running around loose, etc. A fair number of people seem to find it fun to wade in chaos, but while it can be fun now and then to wake you up, I'd much rather the majority of the instance be controlled, smooth execution!

Mistakes always happen, so it's better not to add on to them purposefully, in my book.

Pubbies: I've tried very hard not to group with pubbies if I can, but I think going slow at first will help sort the ones out who don't listen.

[Ruvanal]

And I would NEVER pull as a priest *he says with his fingers crossed behind his back* ;)
[right][snapback]87758[/snapback][/right]

I think this deserves a comment from Sabraelf. :whistling:

[MongoJerry]

I get upset when things go wrong and blame is cast when shortcuts are made with the assumption that everyone is as experienced as the ones wanting to run at high speed.  I guess that goes along with those that also have the expectation that everyone play at an A+ level everywhere all the time.

I get irked when it's a wipe due to recklessness after 1 1/2 hours invested with no hope of returning to where we left off due to re-pops. 

Bingo. I like going fast, except when people want to take unneccessarily risky shortcuts. There are always a couple places in instances where people like to slide by or run past mobs or jump down to certain areas and all too often one person in the party doesn't quite make the slide by, run past, or jump down and wipes the party. And all that risk is usually taken to avoid one single mob pull. If the risk-reward is a 30 second savings vs a 15 minute corpse run/rebuffing/settling in loss, then don't take the risk. If you have a group that's working well and is killing mobs at a fast pace, then just pull that extra mob group and keep going.

[Alrin]

I love highspeed pulls as any of you guys can testify to when I have been in baron/ubrs runs with Anadrol :)
And I second MJ's thoughts on skipping pulls.
When there is proximity risk I never skip unless I play with very competent people. And even then its sketchy, as someone may lag/disconnect and train the party and wipe us.
As Alrin, I rely on my stamina to take a few hits if say the priest gets aggro and cant shed it with fade. I will gladly hit the mob with PoM+pyro and fireblast to get its attention then step off and snare it until the tank gets it. During that time having aggro, I have no problems taking a hit or two because I have the hp's to support it.

I am also a big fan of chainpulling. It is extremely nice as it eliminates that whole "sitting around and waiting" period between pulls. It also kills entirely that "ready? ready? ready?" junk you see in some PuGs.

Anadrol ftw! I actually pulled an UBRS run with Telsak the other week Anadrol-style and the raid was impressed :)
I told them I had learned from the best, hehe.

[Kevin]

I love highspeed pulls as any of you guys can testify to when I have been in baron/ubrs runs with Anadrol :)
And I second MJ's thoughts on skipping pulls.
When there is proximity risk I never skip unless I play with very competent people. And even then its sketchy, as someone may lag/disconnect and train the party and wipe us.
As Alrin, I rely on my stamina to take a few hits if say the priest gets aggro and cant shed it with fade. I will gladly hit the mob with PoM+pyro and fireblast to get its attention then step off and snare it until the tank gets it. During that time having aggro, I have no problems taking a hit or two because I have the hp's to support it.

I am also a big fan of chainpulling. It is extremely nice as it eliminates that whole "sitting around and waiting" period between pulls. It also kills entirely that "ready? ready? ready?" junk you see in some PuGs.

Anadrol ftw! I actually pulled an UBRS run with Telsak the other week Anadrol-style and the raid was impressed :)
I told them I had learned from the best, hehe.
[right][snapback]88212[/snapback][/right]

If I have another warrior around that I trust I pull like this now too. A hunter would be quite good at pulling like this too, though getting aggro from another warriors shot takes a lot less effort than getting aggro from a hunters shot because of the RAP differences. But yeah pull it dump it off on an warrior. When it's controled or close to dead go pull another one. I actually play my hunter solo or in the duo with Treesh a lot. Meowry has it and it's nearly dead, peg the next one, tell Meowry to go get it, land a few more shots in the original unload on the new target. If Meowry is too hurt and or mana or focus is too low or Treesh needs a breather I wait but we can get in quite a smack smack smack rythm as can a solo hunter. Sometimes the pull is send the cat after the new target and let her drag the one I'm hammering with her for a bit too, depends on what I'm fighting and positions. :) Heck with spirit bond sometimes the best way is to have her kill a mob that I've done damage to while I kill another one melee or ranged (if it shots) while spirit bond gets me 30 (new rank at L50 last night!) hp a second back (yes meowry attacks that fast). That healing of me the cat does is also a very nice aggro generator for her too. :)

But yeah in places that everyone has been before, speed pulling is great. If the new players want to rubber neck and such then it is one of the worst things you can do to that player. Of course some people don't care and you can chain pull with people who have never been there before and they will be happy as clams too. Of course since most pubby groups don't seem to care about how other people feel and what they want to experience this isn't usually a concern for them.

[Xukuth]

Eh, the best UBRS group I was ever in was pubbie-based.

Two priests, a feral druid, two ret paladins, four mages, a warlock, two warriors, a hunter, and two rogues.

Nonstop pulling, no CC except for the room next to the Beast and Drakk's room. That run took an hour and ten minutes and it was the most fun I've ever had in-game. No coherent pulling, no CC...and it was glorious.

[Mirajj]

If I have another warrior around that I trust I pull like this now too.  A hunter would be quite good at pulling like this too, though getting aggro from another warriors shot takes a lot less effort than getting aggro from a hunters shot because of the RAP differences.
[right][snapback]88225[/snapback][/right]

I guess it depends on what skill is being used. Even in MC, I pull with Arcane Shot, rank 1. No one should have any problem pulling that amount of aggro off me. ;)