The Pubbie Point of View

[Bolty]

I wind up playing in pubbie (i.e. "pickup" or "PUG") groups quite a lot, mostly because I don't play the only level 60 character I have and because I don't like being an imposition on guildmates to play lower alts when they want to be playing their 60's. I also have the sick perversion of actually enjoying pubbie groups, even though they frustrate me to all hell (just ask any Lurker who has joined me in a mostly pubbie group, I get pretty irritable at all the bad play). Public groups do teach you how to be a better player by teaching you how to cover for players of lesser ability/knowledge along with being a constant demonstration of what to do when Things Go Wrong.™ For example, it's from my pubbie group play as a Priest that I have a good idea for knowing when things get bad enough that I have to start deciding who lives (e.g. who gets my healing) and who dies (e.g. who does not). A less experienced Priest of Bad Situations would try to save everyone, fail, and lead the group to a wipe.

I've seen it from all sides, being in every role, from playing a healer in groups that didn't seem to realize that healing draws aggro, to playing a warrior in groups that have zero concept of letting the tank get aggro a bit before unloading. Combine that with horrific tactics and a complete inability to take advice from anyone, and you have the usual combination that makes up a pubbie group - a "bunch of soloists grouped together" more than a cleanly functioning unit.

It's not just at low levels - there are even high levels who haven't the slightest clue what to do in groups. At high levels, this usually isn't so much due to lack of knowledge on how to play their class rather than a total lack of understanding of how all the OTHER classes work.

After all this experience running pubbie groups, a lot of their actions can be explained once you get into their heads. Think like a "n00b" and you can predict their behaviors. Keep in mind though that the difference between a n00b and a newbie is that the n00b refuses to acknowledge or accept any advice. Everyone was/is a newbie at some facet of the game; it's your lack of willingness to accept and learn from mistakes that makes you a "n00b."


The following is my totally opinion-based summary on how other members of a pick-up group will think of you if you play a certain class, and what you can expect as a result.

Warrior: you are a meat-shield and a tough guy. You are there to do damage and to tank a mob, but not necessarily a group of them. As long as you attack something first, you'll have no trouble holding aggro on it because, well, you're a Warrior. And if not, you can get aggro off of someone else without difficulty. Thus, the moment you charge/attack something, I'll wail away on it and any other mobs that come with the pull as soon as I can. Since the Warrior can't tank EVERY mob without dying, it's best to pull an individual mob off the Warrior and kill it in order to help out. After all, if all the mobs die faster, we get through the instance faster, right?

Paladin: see Warrior. Oh, and heal me! And give me Blessing X now, why did you let it expire?

Rogue: you're there to do damage. Kill things and shut up. Sapping takes too long, it's easier to just kill things.

Druid: you can heal. So heal. Forms are useless you n00b! Everyone knows Druids are good healers but Priests are so much better, so we only have you along because we couldn't find a Priest. Bears can't tank. Cats are just sucky Rogues. If you don't heal, we're kicking you out of the group. We only take you along because we need healing. Blizzard should make this game better instead of requiring healers.

Hunter: put away your pet before it gets us all killed. I don't know what that thing you put on the ground is, so I'm ignoring it. n00b, the tank should pull, not you. Just shut up and shoot things.

Priest (obviously my favorite): shadow priests can't heal, you n00b!
*** You have been removed from the party
[General]LF1M holy priest for instance!

OR

Heal me!
Heal me!
Heal me!
Heal me!

OR

Just shut up and heal people, that's your job. What do you mean, healing draws aggro? Just stand back further from the mobs, stupid. I can attack whatever I want - the tank can't absorb damage from ALL those mobs. Or else we should all attack the same mob and leave the other ones alone, that way we can get through killing them faster. What do you mean, that won't work? Yes it will you n00b!
*** You have been removed from the party
[General] LF1M healer for instance!

OR

Can you make me some water?

BUT ALWAYS

We only take you along because we need healing. Blizzard should make this game better instead of requiring healers. Shut up and do your job and we'll pretend we like you.

Mage: sheeping's a waste of time, let's just kill stuff. It's too hard to pay attention to which mob is sheeped anyhow. And you take too long to get your mana back. Waiting for you all the time is just too annoying. What's the point of having you AoE when you die so fast? What do you mean you need healing while AoE'ing?

Warlock: oh good, a Warlock's in the party. I can just wait here in Ironforge/Orgrimmar and then get a summon when you get to the instance - it's too much bother for me to travel out there. We only have you along because we can't find a real DPS class anyway. By the way, can you make me some water? And what's a soul shard?

Shaman: ...I dunno. Anyone?

And thus ends my guide to How Pubbies Think of You. Please expand on this. :)

-Bolty

[Darian]

Warrior: you are a meat-shield and a tough guy.  You are there to do damage and to tank a mob, but not necessarily a group of them.  As long as you attack something first, you'll have no trouble holding aggro on it because, well, you're a Warrior.  And if not, you can get aggro off of someone else without difficulty.  Thus, the moment you charge/attack something, I'll wail away on it and any other mobs that come with the pull as soon as I can.  Since the Warrior can't tank EVERY mob without dying, it's best to pull an individual mob off the Warrior and kill it in order to help out.  After all, if all the mobs die faster, we get through the instance faster, right?
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And when I'm getting beaten on and run away, you should drop everything you're doing to come chase down the mob that's chasing me and beating on me. I'm not bringing that mob to you, do you think I'm stupid?

[oldmandennis]

Shaman: ...I dunno.  Anyone?

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OMG Shaman pwnzorz. My friend has a lvl 35 shaman, and he took 2 lvl 43 elite dragonkin and then killed a lvl 50 rogue that tried to gank him with a 2k frostshok crit.

or

(Actually happened) <noob> My friend gets 1.2k frostshocks, non crit
<me> No, frost shock non crits are about 500.
<noob> Really he does.
<me> Really, he doesn't. I have the highest rank of frost shock, and it's about 500. You could talent it to about 600. You saw a crit.
<noob> No, it wasn't.
<me> That would require about 1200 points of frost focus. It's impossible!
<noob> He did it
/OldmanDennis makes a rude gesture and walks away

[Kevin]

I'd add more but it is covered so well. :)

The take on the warrior explains why mages like to sheep pull all the time at high levels. :) I was on a UBRS raid and there were some people new to the instance so the raid seemed receptive to listening some. We knew ahead of time if we were going to AoE or CC. I asked the mage to mark the target they were going to sheep so the rogues could choose sap targets better and I knew what I could ignore. They asked me how. I said cast detect magic on it. The mage said detect magic what is that? I said check your spell book after this pull just sheep what you can this time. So he figures out what detect magic is and starts using it. He later whispers me. "This is cool thanks". I had just assumed that most L60's knew about it. He finally got to the point where he just got up there and marked and we cruised. So yeah I've been spoiled by guild groups. :)

We managed to explain what a main assist was to most people in that raid as well. They started to let me tank more than one mob when we needed it too. Afterwards people commented on how well the raid went, but ask Alrin just how much coaching I was doing on that one. :) I alsp loved how people were confused on the Drakk strategy we were using but how, since we had taught them what an MA was, we were able to just say if you assist Telsak for the whole fight you can't go wrong. It worked out because the hunter and the warlock new what they were doing as did the secondary tank on Drakk. :)

Oh and I'll make and Obligitory Strat in this post as well just because. :)

Drakk can be kited quite nicely by a hunter and this actually saves on the chance of anyone getting conflagged. A hunter can pull him all the way out across the bridge and you can tear up the two guards. The hunter can then FD, if it is resisted he can just run, and get Drakk back into the room. I would like to try this on the next guild/alliance run.

[MongoJerry]

Drakk can be kited quite nicely by a hunter and this actually saves on the chance of anyone getting conflagged.&nbsp; A hunter can pull him all the way out across the bridge and you can tear up the two guards.&nbsp; The hunter can then FD, if it is resisted he can just run, and get Drakk back into the room.&nbsp; I would like to try this on the next guild/alliance run.

Is the kiting as simple as shooting drakk with a distracting shot and running with Aspect of the Cheetah, or is there more to it than that?

[kandrathe]

Is the kiting as simple as shooting drakk with a distracting shot and running with Aspect of the Cheetah, or is there more to it than that?
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I wouldn't want to use Cheetah. If he ever did catch you, you'd be dazed and walking, then dead. If you are brave, you might try to hit him with a Wing Clip too. I guess I would try frost trap on the bridge, concussive shot , run, run, run, spin concussive shot, and if he gets stunned, then run back quick and wing clip, run, run, run! Run all the way back to the Beast room which is pretty big and just run a big circle, and if you are the only one on his hate list he should chase you throughout the entire instance.

[Kevin]

Is the kiting as simple as shooting drakk with a distracting shot and running with Aspect of the Cheetah, or is there more to it than that?
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You need to hit him again but it is pretty be in cheetah, shoot from as far as you can. Run. Shoot. Run. Shoot, run around the beasts room until you are told to come back.

I was playing a warrior when the group I was in did it so I don't have all the details but it looks like that was all that was done.

Kand's frost trap sounds like a good idea though.

[MongoJerry]

I wouldn't want to use Cheetah.&nbsp; If he ever did catch you, you'd be dazed and walking, then dead.&nbsp; If you are brave, you might try to hit him with a Wing Clip too.&nbsp; I guess I would try frost trap on the bridge, concussive shot , run, run, run, spin concussive shot, and if he gets stunned, then run back quick and wing clip, run, run, run!&nbsp; Run all the way back to the Beast room which is pretty big and just run a big circle, and if you are the only one on his hate list he should chase you throughout the entire instance.

Many bosses are immune to various snares, which is why I asked. I don't know if frost trap or concussion shot will work on Drakk. I would think that you *would* want to use Cheetah, because if you get caught, you're dead whether you have it on or not and you might as well have Cheetah on to give you the best chance of not being caught in the first place.

[Warlock]

Lovely post. Here's my version from a little while ago, reposted from the blizzard forums:

While this will be very basic for experienced pickup group players I still meet a few people that don't really know their role in parties and I have therefore written this short introduction to help people get started on this exciting style of play. Please feel free to chime in with your own tips and examples.

Warrior
Your role is to do damage. You should use the slowest two handed weapon you can find and stay in Berserker stance which does the most damage. Shields are for wimps. Look for +Str and +Agi items on your armour so that you do more damage. Don’t worry about armour rating or hitpoints, it is the healer’s job to keep you alive, not yours. Make sure that you concentrate on one target, spreading your attacks across several mobs means that it will take longer to kill them all. If you are expecting to fight a lot of mobs, get an enchantment that does area affect damage on your weapon - every little bit helps. Sometimes after a fight you will have a lot of rage left over, this will decay rapidly when out of combat so find and attack another mob quickly.

Rogue
Your role is to do damage. You should use the slowest one handed weapons you can find. The only stat you should care about is +Agi, but a bit of +Str is ok if you can’t find enough pure +Agi items. Forget using stuns or dazes, these take energy better used to do damage (in fact you should remove the buttons for these skills from your hotbar in case you hit them accidentally). Make sure to take aggro from the warrior so you can proc riposte more often - this can be difficult if attacking the same target as a good warrior so try to choose a different target.

Mage
Your role is to do damage. You have an advantage over many other classes because you can do a lot of damage early in a fight and have area effect attacks. Because most healers are useless you will probably die in a lot of fights. Make up for this by using as much of your mana as possible right at the start - there is no point in dying with unused mana. A good approach is to Blink into the middle of a group of elites so you can cast Arcane Explosion. Your most important statistics are Int and Spi.

Hunter
Your role is to do damage. Be sure to use Multishot whenever possible, especially for pulling new groups. You do much more damage at range, so always shoot at the furthest away mob you can see. Because you need to be concentrating on the enemy it is best to have your pet on Aggressive so that you only need to worry about your own character. If a mob is trying to kill you you can use Feign Death to get it to go away - just wait for a heal first so that the mobs sees someone else as a threat. The important stats for a hunter are Agi and Int.

Warlock
Your role is to do damage. You don’t have Blink so can take longer to get set up for AE spells than a Mage does but Hellfire is still your best bet. The succubus is your best pet for all situations and like the hunter pets should be left on aggressive. Your most important statistics are Int and Str (for meleeing with your firestone).

Priest
Your role is to do damage. Shadow form is there for a reason and you should use it. Unlike a Mage you do not have area affect attacks and you need to make up for this by concentrating on the nastiest mob you are facing and going all out. Your party will appreciate how fast tough bosses go down under your barrage. Like a mage, Int and Spi are important for a Priest.

Druid
Your role is to do damage. You must use Cat form at all times (switching out will reduce your energy to zero, so don’t do it.). Otherwise you are like a rogue except that your want +Str instead of +Agi.

Paladin
Your role is to do damage. You are halfway between a warrior (big two handed weapons) and a mage (spam consecration and use retribution aura for area effect damage). The big advantage you have over those classes is your durability - if several mobs are pounding on you and your health is getting below 50% you can use a shield to get them all to leave you alone. Good stats to look for are Str, Agi, Int and Spi - basically everything except Stamina.

Shaman
I have not grouped with Shaman so cannot give informed advice for this class.

[Tris]

Actually for warrior:

Aggro? What's aggro? You mean the mob isn't supposed to go beat on the healer?

Body pullz rulerz! What, you got a problem with pulling 5 mobs at once without a healer? :P

Nothing like calling out the Pally Tank Service(sm). Love it when I rip aggro of pubby warriors with a 1H weapon and SoC up.



Pubby pallies:

Mmmm... salvation is good for the MT... right? And might on priests and mages :}

[Zarathustra]

What? Heal you? I don't heal. I'm Retribution specced.

[Sabra]

My favorite pubby statement ever

<Warrior> What's a tank?

[Tal]

My favorite pubby statement ever

<Warrior> What's a tank?
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The last UBRS pubbie run I was on the leader was a mage who kept pulling. He would do this even when the MT and I were still busy with the previous fight. For the first 10 or so fights I would break my neck to get over there and pull the adds off him. Then I decided to let him tank it.

Upon being rezz'd he asked why I stopped tanking. I told him that if he was doing the pulling while I was still engaged in a fight than he and I would switch roles. I would be DPS and he could tank. After two more fights that ended the same way he stopped pulling. ;)

[Sabra]

And people wonder why I don't play pubby.

[Occhidiangela]

I've seen it from all sides, being in every role, from playing a healer in groups that didn't seem to realize that healing draws aggro, to playing a warrior in groups that have zero concept of letting the tank get aggro a bit before unloading. Combine that with horrific tactics and a complete inability to take advice from anyone, and you have the usual combination that makes up a pubbie group - a "bunch of soloists grouped together" more than a cleanly functioning unit.

Bolty, they are a training ground for corporate America, and in particular management in corporate America.

:P

Occhi

[MongoJerry]

And people wonder why I don't play pubby.

It's fun to laugh at pubbies, but I've also had reverse experiences, where I've grouped up with some incredibly talented people who blew my mind away with tricks and tactics I'd never seen before. Also, I've run into problems by staying in the "comfort zone" of playing within your known group and/or guild. For example, for a while on Tichondrius, I intentionally stopped grouping with some folks from the Amazon Basin. The horror, you think? Well, it's just that I kept partying with a particular subset of Basin folks and when some people made some horrific mistakes, it was like everyone was too afraid to hurt anyone's feelings to say anything about it. I actually started liking pubbie groups for a while, because I knew I could bark at people when they screwed up and sometimes those people would listen and the group would get better. (And people would bark at me and sometimes I'd listen and get better).

It's often fun to play with the people you know, but sometimes you gotta break out and play with other people, too. Often people outside of your comfortable group know a thing or two, too, and you can learn from them.

[Darian]

It's fun to laugh at pubbies, but I've also had reverse experiences, where I've grouped up with some incredibly talented people who blew my mind away with tricks and tactics I'd never seen before.[right][snapback]87347[/snapback][/right]

So have I -- but not randomly. I've had great experiences getting into groups with people I don't know, but who are known to me by reputation, but I can't say the same about random pubbies.

Well, it's just that I kept partying with a particular subset of Basin folks and when some people made some horrific mistakes, it was like everyone was too afraid to hurt anyone's feelings to say anything about it.&nbsp; I actually started liking pubbie groups for a while, because I knew I could bark at people when they screwed up and sometimes those people would listen and the group would get better.

I dunno, I've found that if you do it the right way, or if you're otherwise a jolly, fun-loving scamp, people who are actually going to learn anything will take getting barked at pretty well. I am not the world's friendliest person when we're in MC and people aren't on the ball, but after 15 separate nights there I haven't had word filter back to me that I was hurting anyone's feelings.

Not wanting to snap at people you know and are friends with isn't a bad thing, but sometimes doing it is more of a kindness than not doing it.

On the other hand, having said that, there's probably a difference between being One of Five and being the raid leader, too, so maybe my point's not entirely applicable. However, having spent the time to type it, I'll go ahead and post. ;)

[Shriek]

So how does one know when to start barking? I've been in a remarkable number of lousy groups lately--last night yielded the first 5-man quests I've completed in a month (on my 60, anyway). But that group opened my eyes when I saw how smoothly it was going. My jaw dropped when I realized it didn't matter if I turned off growl on my pet--the warrior held aggro. I'd love to help everyone I group with (especially, but not exclusively, guildies) to fill their role adequately, but I don't want anyone to feel like I'm telling them the way they HAVE to play.

Do I bark when the tank isn't using sunder? Or a shield? Or when the mage starts dps on a sheep? How about when my brother-in-law's lock pulls aggro in EVERY fight? :rolleyes:

I've been on some suprisingly coordinated MC raids where everyone waited for the tank to get aggro locked down, as well as mitigating their damage until they got a feel for what they could get away with. I'm frustrated by the feeling that I'm the only one that does this for 5-man instances. I really think there are too many people getting used to mowing everything down while raiding instances that were balanced for 5, that they never really learn what they're capable of.

(P.S. - DM East is fun--but almost too easy for a good group)
(P.P.S. - Things get a lot less fun when you spend an hour bickering over a Glowing Brightwood drop :()

[kandrathe]

How about when my brother-in-law's lock pulls aggro in EVERY fight? :rolleyes:
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Unfortunately, he will need to suffer some deaths to learn how to manage his aggro better (either to start slower or learn to survive being at the top of the hate list). For a ruin build lock, a series of crits will pull aggro most of the time.

[Brista]

As such threads tend to do, there has been a fair amount of negativity

There must be some positives otherwise we wouldn't join pubbie groups

First, to answer the basic question, what do pubbies think of you it's this:

You're a pubbie (from their perspective of being a valued member of a skilful guild). Ignorance and noobishness is to be expected with anything better being a pleasant surprise

In fact, it's entirely possible for 5 people to group all of whom privately think the others are rather raw and uneducated while being confident of their own superior skills

So when we talk of educating others we need to consider it in the context of being (to them) an unwashed pubbie. What advice would you accept from a bad tank:

1) omg heal ffs
2) would you mind not using Mind Flay please, it throws off my timing

Most of us would resent 1) and grudgingly accept 2) so this sets the tone for how to interact with group members who will generally assume you're not a very good player

There are a lot of things that reinforce perceptions that other pubbies are bad players. Here are some:

1) What you're used to. If you always do something in a particular way, people who don't do it that way will seem raw even though it's an idiosyncracy, not a self-evident strategy. For instance in hardcore diablo2 the Amazon Basin came to adopt the habit of checking if people are ready before moving to a new zone. This created conflict between people who took it for granted it was necessary and people who were perfectly good players but didn't have this habit

2) How you challenge play. Omg heal noob is famously offensive but I'll admit as a healer sometimes I let the tank go dangerously low before I chuck him/her a heal. What I'm doing is gambling risk to tank against later hate generation from healing - it keeps me safer. It's very much a tactic that's open to discussion. However, it's not open to discussion if someone broaches the matter by saying omg heal now noob. Often it's best to suggest rather than dictate, to ask open questions rather than expound. You may not know all the answers after all

3) Pace. To fast players it's self-evident that playing fast keeps people focussed and keeps game rewards high. To slow players it's self-evident that playing cautiously minimises risks, saves time spent on unnecessary corpse runs and ensures greater effectiveness. In truth for the vast majority of the game both styles work fine and it's simply a matter of personal taste.

Summary: most of the perception that pubbies suck is false. These are often players who are perfectly competent in their usual guilds and groups but when playing with others differences of taste, tactics and tone magnify themselves into crises. Simply put, if you are in a pubbie group and it risks going horribly wrong, think about how to diplomatically and tactically bring the group to cohesion rather than passively accepting that everyone else is awful