The World of Roguecraft - Episode 3

[Quark]

Isn't there a trinket that can be used reactively to counter fear/poly effects now?
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Yes, the Insignia of the Horde/Alliance is a Corporal reward. It has a counter to 3 types of effects, dependent upon which class you are. This frequently means that two effects have to be used versus the Alliance and some Horde, but three effects have to be used versus Undead. And you have to make sure you don't cast one of them while WotF is still up.

[Artega]

If a Rogue gets the jump on someone, the target should die.  The only way it doesn't happen is if the Rogue is supremely outmatched in level or equipment.

-Bolty
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I routinely defeat Rogues who get an opener on me.

[Bob the Beholder]

I routinely defeat Rogues who get an opener on me.
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So do I. And I play a mage.

[gothmog]

I routinely defeat Rogues who get an opener on me.
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There are tons of bad Rogues out there. Good ones are a though match if they get the first strike.

[Drasca]

There are tons of bad Rogues out there. Good ones are a though match if they get the first strike.
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Doesn't matter. Artega's a warrior, he can break out of stun or shrug off any opening damage. Rock beat scissors.

At end game, wars have overpowering damage and damage mitigation against rogues.

Rogues only make easy lunch against holy priests and warlocks, as they don't have any innate defenses or instant aoe or escape skills against rogues. Scissors beats paper.

Except... does paper beat rock? Not really. Can they? Only with both skill and equipment. Wars and rogues (among other relatively easy to pvp with classes) can fight effectively without much skill and still kick ass. Certain classes can't do jack without mastery.

[ima_nerd]

Rogues are by no means an all powerful PvP class. I know this has been said 6,000,000 times but, it depends on the player's skill. This video was a cheap stunt by a disgruntled player that got beat one too many times. The one thing I've learned from playing my Rogue is that you can never always win against a class. Warlocks are pretty weak but I've been beaten many times. Warriors are my hardest match up but I've had a few good fights where I've squeezed out a win.

Besides, Blizz said this a long time ago. WoW was never balanced around 1v1 PvP. It was balanced around group PvP. Class A isn't supposed to have a 50% win rate against Class B. However, two balanced and equally skilled groups should. Of course, despite their position on this Rogues seem to be made more for 1v1 PvP or at least small scale PvP. I couldn't stand AV so I elected to wait in line for WSG for hours instead of getting pwned by mass AOE and Reaper-weilding Warriors with Priest heal-slaves in tow. WSG is more of a tactical game where stealth and surprise can be game-changing. That seems more fun than suiciding so I can maybe kill a squishie.

Sorry that was so fragmented and long.

[Artega]

Rogues' effectiveness really depends on their timers. With my Warrior, I've yet to see a Rogue get even CLOSE to beating me without burning at least one of their four timers (Blind, Evasion, Sprint, Vanish.) With my Shaman, it's rare.

Honestly, I'd say Shamans or Shadow-specced Priests (particularly Shadow-spec Undead Priests) are the best classes for 1v1 PvP. But it's all really moot, since the best PvP involves small groups (e.g. Warsong and Arathi Basin :) )

[JustAGuy]

Because he gets the jump every time. I think what this video shows best is how rogues can beat anyone if they blow prep, vanishx2, blindx2, and take advantage of manual restealths with blind and gouge.
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That's the idea behind the video. He's using every skill at his disposal every time to illustrate how, when all of his faculties are available, a rogue is overpowered because of the skills available to them. One of those advantages is stealth and the element of surprise. His argument is that rogues are overpowered, but his video mainly serves to show how good he, in particular, is at beating crappy players.

The one important thing he shows, though, is that no other class, when all of their skills are available, can "pwn" so hard while naked.

The Shaman is the next best 1 on 1 PvP class, in my opinion. It's extremely rare that I lose a fight to a rogue, even if he gets the drop on me. Flame shock + earthbind = win. Keep him at a distance and it's only a matter of mana management. Thing is, I can't do what I do naked... If I tried to kill a rogue with my Shaman naked, I'd get whupped. It would be a messy afair. I would only be able to keep him at bay for so long, as my mana pool would quicky evaporate.

This guy in the video was in great command of his skills, definitely a talented player. The mods he was using also helped immensly, because when I play my rogue, I time my gouges by feel; he had progress bars timing it out for him.

An epic equipped rogue, in my opinion, SHOULD be able to do that. He's got the equipment, and it is "leet" -- but doing it naked? That's a bit much.

It's probably just eviscerate that needs to be toned down, or scale with weapon damage. Everything else seems like it should stay as it is, as it's all under the control of the player. A skilled player uses the available abilities when he sees fit. As a Shaman, you choose when to use Earthbind over Tremor, Grounding over Grace, Healing over Mana, or Nova over Magma, Frost Shock over Flame Shock over Earth Shock. These choices in the heat of combat are what make the player good; I've screwed-over many a fleeing rogue with a properly timed Flame shock, and I've also seen my share of rogues get away because I chose Frost or Earth for damage instead.

Now, my statement of "good players use their available skills properly for the win" stands for all classes EXCEPT the Paladin. That poor guy is a toothless animal. Just gummin' away, mouthin' you, so sad... So sad.



Paladin activates Seal of Command.
Paladin waits for SoC to proc.
Paladin swings and misses.
Paladin casts Hammer of Justice.
Paladin: "I stunned you! Hah, you can't do anything for 6 seconds."
Rogue: "Alright then. 5... 4... 3..."
Paladin: "Now I'll just heal, and... "
Rogue: "Here comes the stun-lock!"
Paladin: "Noob shield activate!" *flee*
Rogue laughs at feeble Paladin.
Paladin yells, "If you were at 20% health, I'd hit you with this hammer!"
Paladin hides behind Thiefcatcher Dwarfy-man.
Paladin logs out.
Paladin re-rolls on PvE server, sobs gently.

[Swiss Mercenary]

An epic equipped rogue, in my opinion, SHOULD be able to do that. He's got the equipment, and it is "leet" -- but doing it naked? That's a bit much.

If I'm reading this right, you are saying that it should take an epic equipped rogue use of all of his 5 minute recharge skills, as well as skilled play to defeat other classes?

[Lissa]

If I'm reading this right, you are saying that it should take an epic equipped rogue use of all of his 5 minute recharge skills, as well as skilled play to defeat other classes?
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No, what he's saying is a Rogue that is naked and using the starting dagger should not be able to defeat other similar level classes that are wearing and using their equipment unless they were afk.

If you haven't paid attention to eviserate, it is a skill that does a flat amount of damage, equipment doesn't play any role in the damage outside of crits. A 5 point eviserate at lv 60 will do 1200 damage no matter if you are using Peridtion's Blade or a starting dagger. This is the one thing that really has to be looked at by Blizzard, the fact that Eviserate does not scale based on your weapon.

[Swiss Mercenary]

If you haven't paid attention to eviserate, it is a skill that does a flat amount of damage, equipment doesn't play any role in the damage outside of crits.  A 5 point eviserate at lv 60 will do 1200 damage no matter if you are using Peridtion's Blade or a starting dagger.  This is the one thing that really has to be looked at by Blizzard, the fact that Eviserate does not scale based on your weapon.
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But, well, neither do spells. +minor amounts of damage aside.

[Lissa]

But, well, neither do spells. +minor amounts of damage aside.
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The difference is, mana is directly dependent on your attributes, which means a naked caster has at maximum 2.5k mana and will run out of that in about 5 to 8 casts (which is not enough damage to take someone out) while the naked rogue depends on energy which renews automatically gaining 20 points every second. This is the crux of the problem with naked rogues and the flat damage of eviserate. The rogue can do a couple attacks to build up combo points, gouge to get a little energy regen and get a combo point while doing so and finally build up to 5 combo points and hit cold blood followed by eviserate doing 1800 damage automatically. 1800 damage, even with 50% damage mitigation is still 15% to 25% of any character's health (varies depending on total health, some classes will take more damage, others will take less depending on what armor they wear).

In essence, Blizzard has to relook at how eviserate works and they have to make it scale based on damage of the weapon used. This video shows that flat damage does not work for this skill. The other aspects of the rogue I have no issue with since they scale based on weapon used, but eviserate does not and it should (as the author of the video shows by his antics).

[Swiss Mercenary]

Right, thanks.

Although, in which direction would you propose the scaling?

Should an epic rogue's eviscerate deal more then the flat +Damage it already does?

If a rogue with mediocre gear would still deal the same amount of damage with it, then it wouldn't really fix the problem (After all, I can't say there's too many rogues running around with nothing but their starting gear at level 60).

[Lissa]

Right, thanks.

Although, in which direction would you propose the scaling?

Should an epic rogue's eviscerate deal more then the flat +Damage it already does?

If a rogue with mediocre gear would still deal the same amount of damage with it, then it wouldn't really fix the problem (After all, I can't say there's too many rogues running around with nothing but their starting gear at level 60).
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To be honest, I'm not sure how I would work it. The thing about eviserate is it is usable with any weapon a rogue has at hand. This means that if you do a percentage base, then dagger rogues lose out on performing eviserate compared to sword or mace rogues. The only solution I could see would be to have the game detect the DPS of the weapon and multiply it by a certain percentage, there by making eviserate equal across all weapons.

I do know, I would base the damage on a green level 60 item, not on a grey, white, blue, purple, or higher rarity.

[Warlock]

To be honest, I'm not sure how I would work it.  The thing about eviserate is it is usable with any weapon a rogue has at hand.  This means that if you do a percentage base, then dagger rogues lose out on performing eviserate compared to sword or mace rogues.  The only solution I could see would be to have the game detect the DPS of the weapon and multiply it by a certain percentage, there by making eviserate equal across all weapons.

I do know, I would base the damage on a green level 60 item, not on a grey, white, blue, purple, or higher rarity.
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If they do change Eviscerate my guess it that it'll do damage based solely on attack power.