The World of Roguecraft - Episode 3

[nobbie]

Check out this thread on the Tich forums:

The World of Roguecraft

The movie download is here (352 MB):

http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=6140

Ever hear a rogue say "cry more noob"? I was sick of the arrogant rogues, who think they're ninjas because they can two hit people, telling me to learn my class. So I decided to learn theirs. Are rogues overpowered? It's worse than you think. It's impossible to understand unless you've played both classes. When I began to pvp as a rogue, the difference was like night and day. I was able to do things I could never even dream of as a warlock.

I created this rogue and leveled him to 60 for the sole purpose of making this series of movies. This is the third episode of "World of Roguecraft".

[Lissa]

Check out this thread on the Tich forums:

The World of Roguecraft

The movie download is here (352 MB):

http://warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=6140
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This movie will likely cause the change to Eviserate. For those that haven't watched the film, the Warlock turned Rogue shows how they beat people left and right naked and only using the starting dagger due to Eviserate doing a set amount of damage regardless of equipment used.

[Bob the Beholder]

Of course, should probably mention the part where the people he fights suck REALLY, REALLY bad. Or had a ping of several thousand ms. That and he tended to vanish, evade, sprint, etc. at least once per fight, sometimes more than once with Preparation.

'Course, I doubt a warrior could kill even unskilled opponents naked, with a 0.9 DPS weapon. But that's mainly from the really odd disparity of everything but Eviscerate scaling with weapon damage.

[nobbie]

Of course, should probably mention the part where the people he fights suck REALLY, REALLY bad. Or had a ping of several thousand ms.  That and he tended to vanish, evade, sprint, etc. at least once per fight, sometimes more than once with Preparation.

'Course, I doubt a warrior could kill even unskilled opponents naked, with a 0.9 DPS weapon.  But that's mainly from the really odd disparity of everything but Eviscerate scaling with weapon damage.
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Yes, that "Eviscerate" (reminds of the fixed damage adder "of Evisceration" in Diablo II, btw) doesn't scale with weapon damage is odd. However, you also have to consider that the Rogue he plays does not only use a crappy 1-2 dmg starter dagger but that he's ALSO completely naked while killing fully equipped level 60's with partly epic equipment. That should not be.

[Bob the Beholder]

Yes, that "Eviscerate" (reminds of the fixed damage adder "of Evisceration" in Diablo II, btw) doesn't scale with weapon damage is odd. However, you also have to consider that the Rogue he plays does not only use a crappy 1-2 dmg starter dagger but that he's ALSO completely naked while killing fully equipped level 60's with partly epic equipment. That should not be.
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Yeah, it's not exactly the best news, but, eh.

I just think the video illustrates the all important 'Skill > Equipment' argument. 'Cause, really, if this is to illustrate that there is something wrong with the rogue class, then why is it that he's also killing fully equipped rogues?

[Arnulf]

Leaving all the discussion about imbalance aside, I have to say this video has style. That guy deserves a prize for that. Eye of the Tiger, Rocky, Terminator main theme! Whoa~!

Impressive!

[Boutros]

Yeah, it's not exactly the best news, but, eh. 

I just think the video illustrates the all important 'Skill > Equipment' argument.  'Cause, really, if this is to illustrate that there is something wrong with the rogue class, then why is it that he's also killing fully equipped rogues?
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Because he gets the jump every time. I think what this video shows best is how rogues can beat anyone if they blow prep, vanishx2, blindx2, and take advantage of manual restealths with blind and gouge.

[nobbie]

Because he gets the jump every time. I think what this video shows best is how rogues can beat anyone if they blow prep, vanishx2, blindx2, and take advantage of manual restealths with blind and gouge.
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I too think that this was the main point of the author of the video, because a scaling Eviscerate (with epic MC/BWL weapons) could be even worse than one with a flat damage addition (the 1-2 dmg dagger example). I also got the impression that Rogues can get way too many crits with the right equipment.

[Brista]

Coincidentally I was in a group earlier on today with a level 15 Rogue and my main dagger broke. I carried on, using unarmed attacks as my main hand and dagger in my off. I comfortably topped the damage meter

In some ways this has an element of optical illusion. Eviscerate is one of the least item-dependent skills in the game. Shadow bolt gets boosted by +shadow damage gear. However despite the logic that since Eviscerate is item-independent and most other attacks and skills aren't then therefore a naked Rogue is one of the more viable classes to run round naked it looks much more wrong to see a naked Rogue winning in pvp than it would to see a naked Mage killing players with Fireballs

This video is admitted propaganda - the creator states that he is a Warlock player who levelled this Rogue to 60 specifically to make these videos.

[Arnath]

I fixed my problem! And despite having a rogue in WoW, this video is kinda really funny.

Arnath

[Quark]

Observations:

1) Keyboard turners. Every damn one of them. Nobody jump turned, nobody used the mouse to turn quickly. I think Tal has learned the value of jump-turning against me :)

2) Timered skills used every fight. Every fight. That might be great for ganking someone every 10 minutes to make a video, but that would be a horrible thing to do in a place like AV.

3) Anyone else catch the ranks of the players killed? Not 100% sure about the beginning, but I counted: 1 Knight Lieutenant Mage, 1 Sergeant Major, 2 Master Sergeants, and everybody else was lower. These were not good PvPers, nor were they experienced.

4) Respecs. He used Premeditation in some fights. He used Cold Blood in some fights. Problem? Those are different specs. Nice of him to tell you that he was changing equipment for the video (to grand stand it), but not tell you he was respeccing.

5) Worn Dagger Eviscerate. Good, get Eviscerate changed to scale to equipment. I'll enjoy it, because fully equipped my Eviscerate is becoming less and less useful. It's like having a spell, with no +spell damage.

[Quark]

I also got the impression that Rogues can get way too many crits with the right equipment.
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Nope, this isn't an equipment thing. You're seeing all his Backstab/Ambush crits, and the majority of those come from your talents, not your gear.

[nobbie]

Nope, this isn't an equipment thing.  You're seeing all his Backstab/Ambush crits, and the majority of those come from your talents, not your gear.
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Even worse :)

[Bolty]

Nope, this isn't an equipment thing.  You're seeing all his Backstab/Ambush crits, and the majority of those come from your talents, not your gear.[right][snapback]88170[/snapback][/right]

Quark, this is not a diss on you or anyone's playing ability. But I've played every class, and every time I log in with my Rogue and play it's like...WoW on fast-forward.

If a Rogue gets the jump on someone, the target should die. The only way it doesn't happen is if the Rogue is supremely outmatched in level or equipment.

-Bolty

[Quark]

Quark, this is not a diss on you or anyone's playing ability.  But I've played every class, and every time I log in with my Rogue and play it's like...WoW on fast-forward.

If a Rogue gets the jump on someone, the target should die.  The only way it doesn't happen is if the Rogue is supremely outmatched in level or equipment.

-Bolty
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Two things.

First, I'll quote Tyren since this is the one post he made that I agree with the most:

Lets make something clear. It is highly unlikely that pre-60 rogues will get any major changes. Pre-60 rogue is probably the most ridiculously powerful class.

Once you hit 60, I do believe there are issues, and the post-60 game for rogues is somewhat lacking.

The question becomes, do the devs feel that there is enough justifiable reason to make a change. And that is where the player feedback comes in.

Second, If. If, if, if, if. Rogue combat is based on two things - starting in stealth, and having timered skills ready. I'll admit it's freakishly easy to kill as a rogue if those two things are true. It's also freakishly easy to die as a rogue if either of those is false. And they aren't making it any easier to stay in stealth.

I dread two pushes in AV - the first push on Snowfall Graveyard, and the double-tower push in the Horde town. AoE from the Horde make it real hard to get up in stealth and do my job at the Graveyard, and all the bowman in the two towers mean Vanish - or just running way away - is the only way to restealth once you start fighting.

As I've told others before, I really would like Blind to be pure CC and not a method to continue stunlock ala Gouge.

Rogues have an unfair advantage in ganking, but should they be nerfed in PvP battles because of that?

[lemekim]

I dread two pushes in AV - the first push on Snowfall Graveyard, and the double-tower push in the Horde town.  AoE from the Horde make it real hard to get up in stealth and do my job at the Graveyard, and all the bowman in the two towers mean Vanish - or just running way away - is the only way to restealth once you start fighting.

Rogues have an unfair advantage in ganking, but should they be nerfed in PvP battles because of that?
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There are different rogue builds. Some rely moreso on that first hit and timers (Subtlety tree comes to mind), which is good for ganking, while others can be quite good in open field PvP (combat tree specifically is good at it).

Of course, in "the battle", specifically in organized AV teams, rogues have a wide array of uses, including capturing mines (along with druids, because of stealth), and farming hides (fast killl ratio). They can also be used as a distraction or even a key to a push (2 rogues can contest a graveyard, and contesting 2 adjacent graveyards simultaneously can make it much harder to take back the main GY that is under attack). They can also take out casters in the back, or even fight in the thick of battle. They are not as fragile there as one might think, considering most of the damage in AV comes from magical AOE spells.

As for the video, I think one of the points of the video was not to say that rogues are overpowered, but rather point out that rogues are not gimped as the many forum posts on the board show it off to be (look at the beginning of the video, where he "goes to forums").

[Brista]

Quark, this is not a diss on you or anyone's playing ability.  But I've played every class, and every time I log in with my Rogue and play it's like...WoW on fast-forward.

If a Rogue gets the jump on someone, the target should die.  The only way it doesn't happen is if the Rogue is supremely outmatched in level or equipment.

-Bolty
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Bolty, you're not a pvper

With my Hunter I sometimes win if the Rogue initiates combat and just about always win if I initiate combat.

With my Shadow Priest I pretty much always win. I've killed a +3 Rogue who ganked me on half life and mana. Fear run off and dot. They have very little chance to catch you if you run evasively and usually by the time they do fear is ready again. I really look forward to being ganked by Rogues when I'm on this guy since it's so easy to turn the tables

Warriors can routinely beat Rogues: they are designed as scissors to rogues' paper

I also (when on my Rogue) find Paladins almost impossible to beat

I'm referring to spontaneous 1v1 pvp when questing. In bg everyone kills everyone else and the proportion of killing you do is inverse to the amount of interest you take in teamwork, the flag, etc

[Kevin]

I've found my druid to be a pretty even match for a rogue as well. They have to get enough damage on me fast enough so that I can natures swiftness heal myself back up. Since I can get HoT's running on myself easily as well if they stun me to bandage or whatever I'm still healing. Sure I generally have to use my timers to beat them but they will often have to use their timers to beat me and do have plenty of options to get the heck away from them and my druid isn't even a PvP build. Though most of my PvP is dueling experience or defending a horde town on the PvE server.

Rogues are still the most frustrating class to PvP against though because they have the most options to make you lose control of your character and many of them aren't as obvious. I know when I'm feared and can't do anything and usually I know where it came from. When a rogue stuns me though I don't know where it came from and figure I'm going to be helpless again pretty soon, then I need to have the skill (which I don't have much of) to get turned to find them and get them targeted (because you never know what you will get with tab targeting) and try to snare and DoT them to cut down their skill set. Then I have to hope I can get more damage on them than they can on my 1/2 to 3/4 dead self. This is one of the reasons I like the druid, I have 2 instants to prevent restealth I can snare them and I can get my health back up and know that some of their tricks are gone and that if they don't have friends I have a good chance of killing them. But yeah my fights against rogues are generally me dying pretty quick with no damage to the rogue or relatively close battles.

I see that as more the problem with rogues and shaman for that matter. Both of them can front load a lot of damage and both can keep you in a state where you can't do much of anything about it as long as they have their tricks. And yes shaman need mana that they can burn fast to do anything, shocks don't cast as fast as people like and totems take some time to drop and have longer cool downs than people like to think as well. I personally don't see why a hunter should ever lose to a shaman because you can sting away a lot of their mana and the pet harassing them will be an issue for them. But again the frustration in PvP comes from when you become essentially helpless and rogues are very good at, and in fact often have to, do this to you to win.



And to bolty the only reason why I think a rogue is more uber in PvE is because I can pick my battles and have a better chance of running away if I need to, and I still need to. Without engineering though my rogue wouldn't be that much more "easy mode" for me. The class I need to run the least with and worry the least about an add with is still the paladin though. Oh another add? Oh OK let me regen mana while still doing damage here so I can heal myself without being interrupted and yeah it may take some time but with this shield and plate mail on they aren't doing enough damage to me for it to really matter and if it gets bad enough I can stop that for a few seconds and use a bandage or what not. My rogue with unexpected adds my very well have to run away, which he is good at but it's still no fun. But maybe I play the rogue wrong. Sure if nothing goes wrong things die really really fast but if something does go wrong I am in vulnerable and I hate running. :)

[Lissa]

With my Shadow Priest I pretty much always win. I've killed a +3 Rogue who ganked me on half life and mana. Fear run off and dot. They have very little chance to catch you if you run evasively and usually by the time they do fear is ready again. I really look forward to being ganked by Rogues when I'm on this guy since it's so easy to turn the tables
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You're also fighting an alliance rogue. If you were fighting an undead rogue, forget it. You'd be dead. You'd fear, they'd pop WotF and sprint and keep right with you hammering you all the way. And you would never get a chance to heal anything more than Renew as they would kick or gouge you any chance they got when you stopped to heal.

Shadowpriest is powerful, but, you're fighting alliance rogues, not undead rogues.

[Malakar]

Isn't there a trinket that can be used reactively to counter fear/poly effects now?