I live in the center of coal country - all the surface mines around have shut down with the high prices of fuel.
If nothing else changes they may not be reopening until coal prices rise enough to compensate.
That in turn could have a big impact of electricity prices. There is potential for other cascade effects to if this really starts.
Im not predicting what will happen, the whole situation is rather fluid. But this is interesting.
I know this is related to the Hurrcane thread, but its a very different issue.
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Money doesn't make the world go 'round - oil does.
At least now we have an excuse to start looking for efficient way to get oil out of our shale deposits. And hopefully "refinery" becomes less of a bad word with our policymakers and activists when they see limiting the development, upgrading, and construction of new refinery facilities wasn't helping anything.
I hope your community isn't hit too hard by the work stoppage at the mines.
The Bill of No Rights
The United States has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance. Robert A. Heinlein
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09-03-2005, 06:17 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-03-2005, 06:18 AM by Swiss Mercenary.)
jahcs,Sep 2 2005, 10:37 PM Wrote:At least now we have an excuse to start looking for efficient way to get oil out of our shale deposits. And hopefully "refinery" becomes less of a bad word with our policymakers and activists when they see limiting the development, upgrading, and construction of new refinery facilities wasn't helping anything.
If the only solutions were "More refineries" or "Less refineries", then, yes, simply increasing the oil output would solve all our problems. Fortunately, we have more then black and white to choose from.
Unfortunately, the BS spouted/implemented by the environmentalist side of the fence often undermines efforts for realistic alternative energy sources.
Nuclear power plants, eh? :whistling:
Oil's too valuable to be wasted in SUVs.
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Swiss Mercenary,Sep 2 2005, 10:17 PM Wrote:If the only solutions were "More refineries" or "Less refineries", then, yes, simply increasing the oil output would solve all our problems. Fortunately, we have more then black and white to choose from.
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Agreed. Alternative energy sources are something that needs to be explored and developed. My wife is quite active with sustainable communities which, in part, deals with new ways to do the day to day things that keep our lives moving. More efficent, less wastefull, systems of living are a good thing :) .
After looking at electric scooters for a while now she has finally decided on a model that will meet our needs. At current costs it takes less than $1 per day to charge it with a range of 40-55 miles. It's no speed demon, rated top speed is about 45mph. ;) Her birthday is coming up and we've been saving so we'll see what happens...
The Bill of No Rights
The United States has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance. Robert A. Heinlein
If I remember right Canada has rather large reserves but they are exspensive to extract the oil from.
If companies feel secure that the price will stay over $50 a barrel that that make extraction profitable?
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I'm not sure about Canada but $3.00 a gallon for gasoline has been the magic number for the shale deposits in the U.S - at least according to previous estimates.
The Bill of No Rights
The United States has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance. Robert A. Heinlein
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jahcs,Sep 3 2005, 02:24 PM Wrote:I'm not sure about Canada but $3.00 a gallon for gasoline has been the magic number for the shale deposits in the U.S - at least according to previous estimates.
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HA! Find me anywhere that has $3.00 a gallon anymore. I dare you. Our prices over here on the east coast, which are ALWAYS way less than the west coast, just shot up 50 cents in one day, and are expected to rise equally more over the next month. I shudder to think about how bad the west coast is doing.
Insane gasoline, heating oil, and natural gas prices are going to cripple this country, especially here in the NE, and all across the northern U.S. Down south, you have hurricaes and tornadoes and whatnot, but up north we have freezing winters, and here we have Nor'Easters. Too many people are going to be left in the cold, literally, this winter because they'll be too broke to pay for heat, gasoline, and electricity. This winter better be a mild one here in New England, or the death rate is gonna rise sharply.
Not trying to downplay anywhere else in the U.S., especially in lieu of Katrina (I wish I could help more; I wish so much I could), but at least your winters down there are mild. Up here, we have enough people dying in their cars from suffocation because they were too stupid to stay inside in a big snowstorm; too many people getting killed in car accidents, falling limbs and power / telephone lines due to hundreds of pounds of ice and snow weighing them all down; too many days of cities all over being completely shut down due to snow clogging the streets, knocking out power / telephone. With the way prices are skyrocketing for essential fuel sources, I shudder to think of what this winter will be like, especially if we get hit as hard this year as we did last year. It's gonna be a damn tight winter.
Roland *The Gunslinger*
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I spent some winters up North.
Damn. That's all I can say is damn. Ever seen what a Northern winter does to a Southerner? It aint pretty.
I feel for ya.
Find a nice woman, get a lot of blankets, and mayhap some of that KY warming jelly. It's a pleasant way to keep warm.
All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
"Isn't this where...."
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Doc,Sep 4 2005, 09:36 AM Wrote:I spent some winters up North.
Damn. That's all I can say is damn. Ever seen what a Northern winter does to a Southerner? It aint pretty.
I feel for ya.
Find a nice woman, get a lot of blankets, and mayhap some of that KY warming jelly. It's a pleasant way to keep warm.
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I guess the northeast gets worse winters than I get. Winters for me are never as hard to deal with as summers when it gets really hot and humid.
I may be dead, but I'm not old (source: see lavcat)
The gloves come off, I'm playing hardball. It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full-court press. (Frank Drebin in The Naked Gun)
Some people in forums do the next best thing to listening to themselves talk, writing and reading what they write (source, my brother)
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Minionman,Sep 4 2005, 12:00 PM Wrote:I guess the northeast gets worse winters than I get. Winters for me are never as hard to deal with as summers when it gets really hot and humid.
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Lord almighty, if we get a strong Nor'Easter that actually HITS (plenty of them go right by us, thankfully), we get shut down, sometimes for a week at a time. I remember the Blizzard of '94. People my age still talk about that one, cause we were in school then. April 1st, 4 feet of snow dumped OVERNIGHT. Shut the entirety of MA down for about a week, some places longer, some places a little less. How's that for an April Fools joke?
Or how about this? Boston had depleted their entire plowing budget for the season in the course of a few storms, and the winter wasn't even half over. Worse, they actually went OVER budget in just those few storms. Imagine having to shell out $20 million or more just to move snow every year, just so you can continue living? Those poor plow people don't even get paid sometimes because the debt just piles up too fast, let alone get paid on time (a miracle that almost never occurs). Imagine how that affects not just people's daily lives, but emergency response times, etc. Downed limbs from snow and ice, likewise for power lines, telephone poles, etc. Fire trucks and ambulances don't exactly handle like fox in the snow, either, let alone when there's obstructions.
And then there's the idiots who INSIST on going out in the storm, only to get stuck in their cars on the highways (blocking already clogged roads, completely shutting them down because the plows can't plow, and the haulers can't haul), and end up either freezing to death or suffocating due to the snow clogging their exhaust pipes. People in the city have it real bad, too, because often times their cars will literally be unavailable because of snow - 6 - 10 foot piles are not that uncommon, even with only 3 - 4 feet of snow, due to drift and plows piling it all up. And God help you if you're homeless. I don't even want to think about it, being stuck out in those storms. They get NASTY. High winds + giant snow flakes? Or worse, freezing rain, which makes the roads turn to ice INSTANTLY I might add.
New England is beautiful in the fall and winter, but it's also the worst time to be here. It's no wonder everyone moves to Florida. :P
Roland *The Gunslinger*
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Roland,Sep 4 2005, 07:17 AM Wrote:HA! Find me anywhere that has $3.00 a gallon anymore. I dare you. Our prices over here on the east coast, which are ALWAYS way less than the west coast, just shot up 50 cents in one day, and are expected to rise equally more over the next month. I shudder to think about how bad the west coast is doing.
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Yep, that's the point. When the National Average goes over $3.00 a gallon they say it becomes economical to explore ways to extract the oil reserves trapped in the shale.
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The United States has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance. Robert A. Heinlein
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Roland,Sep 4 2005, 02:01 PM Wrote:New England is beautiful in the fall and winter, but it's also the worst time to be here. It's no wonder everyone moves to Florida. :P
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Florida? Hot, humid summers, hurricanes, nah. They should move around Chicago. Sure, you never know what the weather's going to be like, but it doesn't have much snow and the summers don't get that hot.
Mostly my blizzard experience was as a little kid, when there were a few in the area, and when I used to go to Minneapolis for thanksgiving, so I haven't seen that big of snowstorms.
Anyway, I haven't really noticed gas price changes and such since I don't drive, but maybe will notice other effects.
I may be dead, but I'm not old (source: see lavcat)
The gloves come off, I'm playing hardball. It's fourth and 15 and you're looking at a full-court press. (Frank Drebin in The Naked Gun)
Some people in forums do the next best thing to listening to themselves talk, writing and reading what they write (source, my brother)
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jahcs,Sep 4 2005, 04:47 PM Wrote:Yep, that's the point. When the National Average goes over $3.00 a gallon they say it becomes economical to explore ways to extract the oil reserves trapped in the shale.
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We've always been well under the national average. It's been over 3 bucks a gallon for quite awhile now, and never has it gotten that high over here until just the other day. I wouldn't be surprised to see the national average skyrocket to $4.00 or more in the next month.
Roland *The Gunslinger*
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Roland,Sep 4 2005, 06:42 PM Wrote:We've always been well under the national average. It's been over 3 bucks a gallon for quite awhile now, and never has it gotten that high over here until just the other day. I wouldn't be surprised to see the national average skyrocket to $4.00 or more in the next month.
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Well exploiting new fuel sources doesn't happen over night, and gas has only been over $3 for about a week or two...
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09-05-2005, 03:24 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2005, 03:25 AM by Boutros.)
Roland,Sep 4 2005, 06:17 AM Wrote:HA! Find me anywhere that has $3.00 a gallon anymore. I dare you. Our prices over here on the east coast, which are ALWAYS way less than the west coast, just shot up 50 cents in one day, and are expected to rise equally more over the next month. I shudder to think about how bad the west coast is doing.
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Still $2.60 in Anchorage right now. But we love the high oil prices up here. Every day in the buisness section of the local paper they have a chart with the north slope crude prices from the last 12 months or so, and it has a line that indicates the price that balances the state's budget. We are well to the good of that line right now.
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Swiss Mercenary,Sep 3 2005, 06:17 AM Wrote:Unfortunately, the BS spouted/implemented by the environmentalist side of the fence often undermines efforts for realistic alternative energy sources.
Nuclear power plants, eh? :whistling:
Oil's too valuable to be wasted in SUVs.
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You cannot say that. Blaming environmentalists for undermining getting alternative enrgy sources. If for you alternative is just nuclear power than you're right maybe. But the risk is just to big. And nowone would take especially the USA serious if they wanted to increase the number of nuclear powerplants.
The real people to blame are the big oil companies that do absolutely no effort to work on wind and solar energy. Shell here in Holland, is more or less only pumping oil, and e.g. exxonmobil (the ones who wrote Bush' point of view on Kyoto) are even worse.
Plus there is just too little oil, the prices will never go down substantially anymore.
3 dollar per gallon? wow, maybe you would start thinking about increasing researchfunds for solar enegry if you have to pay what we pay. (around 8 dollars per gallon). And also here people are complaining, but (and this is even worse in teh US) if people keep driving around as much as they do now, and in these huge cars, apparantly they still don't care enough.
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eppie,Sep 5 2005, 09:46 AM Wrote:You cannot say that. Blaming environmentalists for undermining getting alternative enrgy sources. If for you alternative is just nuclear power than you're right maybe. But the risk is just to big. And nowone would take especially the USA serious if they wanted to increase the number of nuclear powerplants.
I'm not blaming any environmentalists who have (and use) a head on their shoulders.
I am pointing the finger at the whackos, who paint a rather ugly picture to Joe Average.
Quote:The real people to blame are the big oil companies that do absolutely no effort to work on wind and solar energy. Shell here in Holland, is more or less only pumping oil, and e.g. exxonmobil (the ones who wrote Bush' point of view on Kyoto) are even worse.
Oh, but try explaining that to the masses. I mean, I can easily see the ripeness of the harvest of the lobbying efforts by the fossil fuel industry - but you can't let the aformentioned whackos go blameless.
"One day, o-n-e day..."
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09-06-2005, 02:30 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2005, 02:30 PM by Occhidiangela.)
SwissMercenary,Sep 5 2005, 04:56 AM Wrote:I'm not blaming any environmentalists who have (and use) a head on their shoulders.
I am pointing the finger at the whackos, who paint a rather ugly picture to Joe Average.
Oh, but try explaining that to the masses. I mean, I can easily see the ripeness of the harvest of the lobbying efforts by the fossil fuel industry - but you can't let the aformentioned whackos go blameless.
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Rush Limbaugh got his career started by the easy pickings on the tripe "environmentalist whacko's" presented him with for public ridicule.
Just think, if the entire environmentalist movement were less drama based, less victim based, less whiny twits, we'd not have Limbaugh on the radio. Think of it!
One more reason to despise "purist" environmentalists.
Occhi
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
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If oil is over 25$/barrel then there is enough profit to take oil out of the oil sands in nothern Alberta. It's been this way for a while now, so production has been at a steady increase for several years.
Since Canada has 15% of the world's oil reserves (second only to Saudi Arabia), and most of this oil is in northern Alberta - covering an area bigger than Florida - production is only going to increase in this area. Right now it accounts for about 35% of the oil produced in Canada, this number is sure to increase dramatically over the next few years based on the current trend in oil prices.
Right now they can only get 1.4 or 1.5 million barrels of oil out of the sands each day, but they hope to increase that to over 2 million/day.
So I would say that processing the oil in your shale could happen soon, if it can be done with a process similar to that used in the tar sands.
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