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Maybe this is just me but I don't think most raids use druid healing in the best manner and this includes the avarice raids. Let's look at heal times and efficiency.
All highest rank skills
First set is no talents
Last set is fully talented
Druid
Healing Touch
1890 - 2230 HP; 790MP; 3.5s cast; 2.39-2.82 HP/MP; 540-637HP/s
1985 - 2342 HP; 672MP; 3.5s cast; 2.96-3.49 HP/MP; 567-669HP/s
Regrowth
1003 - 1119 HP + 1064/21s 152HP/tick 7 tick; 880MP; 2.0s cast; 2.38-2.48 HP/MP; 502 - 560 HP/s + 51HP/s
1053 - 1175 HP + 1117/21s 160HP/tick 7 tick; 880MP; 2.0s cast; 2.46-2.60 HP/MP; 527 - 587 HP/s + 53HP/s
if crits (fully talent 50% chance + base crit chance on front end)
1590 - 1762 HP + 1117/21s 160HP/tick 7 tick; 880MP; 2.0s cast; 3.06-3.27 HP/MP; 790 - 881HP/s + 53HP/s
Rejuv
756HP/12s 189HP/tick 4 ticks; 335MP; instant cast; 2.26 HP/MP; 63HP/s
907HP/12s 227HP/tick 4 ticks; 335MP; instant cast; 2.71 HP/MP; 76HP/s
Priest
Greater Heal
2396 - 2674 HP; 960MP; 4.0s cast; 2.50 - 2.79 HP/MP; 599 - 669 HP/s
2636 - 2941 HP; 816MP; 3.5s cast; 3.23 - 3.60 HP/MP; 753 - 840 HP/s
Flash Heal
812 - 958 HP; 380MP; 1.5s cast; 2.14 - 2.52 HP/MP; 541 - 639 HP/s
893 - 1054HP; 380MP; 1.5s cast; 2.35 - 2.77 HP/MP; 595 - 703 HP/s
Renew
810HP/15s 162HP/tick 5 ticks; 365MP; 2.22 HP/MP; 54HP/s
891HP/15s 178HP/tick 5 ticks; 328MP; 2.71 HP/MP; 59HP/s
Paladin (no talents, full talent, full + Blessing of Light)
Holy Light
1246 - 1388 HP; 580MP; 2.5s cast; 2.15 - 2.40 HP/MP; 498 - 555 HP/s
1396 - 1555 HP; 580MP; 2.5s cast; 2.41 - 2.68 HP/MP; 558 - 622 HP/s
1796 - 1955 HP; 580MP; 2.5s cast; 3.10 - 3.37 HP/MP; 718 - 782 HP/s
Flash of Light
343 - 383 HP; 140MP; 1.5s cast; 2.45 - 2.74 HP/MP; 229 - 255 HP/s
343 - 383 HP; 123MP; 1.5s cast; 2.78 - 3.11 HP/MP; 228 - 255 HP/s
458 - 498 HP; 123MP; 1.5s cast; 3.72 - 4.04 HP/MP; 305 - 332 HP/s
Shaman
Healing Wave
1367 - 1561 HP; 615MP; 3.0s cast; 2.22 - 2.44 HP/MP; 455 - 520 HP/s
1504 - 1717 HP; 585MP; 2.5s cast; 2.57 - 2.94 HP/MP; 601 - 685 HP/s
Lesser Healing Wave
832 - 928 HP; 380MP; 1.5s cast; 2.19 - 2.44 HP/MP; 555 - 618 HP/s
915 - 1020 HP; 361MP; 1.5s cast; 2.54 - 2.83 HP/MP; 610 - 681 HP/s
So for a Druid, even fully talented with a front end crit and every tick doing full HP return, Regrowth is less mana efficient than Healing Touch is. It however, with that crit (and you have to consider that if it is fully talented because that is 50% of the time) is the most HP/s that a druid can do and the long HoT does help smooth out damage some though not a lot. For most priests who have Flash Heal fully talented but not Greater Heal, they are both pretty close on mana effiecency and HP/s.
This makes it seem to me that druids should be spamming Healing Touch with priests and paladins throwing in the quicker more mana efficient heals to smooth. You should have a priest who has more healing options running as the "I'll back you up" and spot heal the raid healer and have a druid be the one how just chain casts healing touch on the tanks. A Shaman will do the same thing throwing their quick heal since their spells fully talented are pretty much identical for how they heal, this is why most shaman just don't bother with talenting Healing Wave at all.
But I see druids asked to be the back up healers or the spot healers when we are the class with the least options to do so. If you cast a Regrowth the front end won't heal all the way up and then a priest or paladin or shaman will throw a quick little heal on that person negating the HoT and dropping it to like 1.2 - 1.3 (with a bit more for how ever much of the HoT ticked) HP/MP. Big big waste on the druids mana and while it doesn't show as overhealing in Recap all that wasted HoT should be.
I know when I've just decided that I'm only casting Healing Touches at the main tank and maybe throwing a HoT at some of my party members that I get more healer comments about it being easier on their mana. Makes sense because thier Flash heals will all get canceled (and not muck with regen since that continues until the cast goes off) because of my big heal landing. That flash heal is so much better to cast on a rogue or mage who is at about 2000/3500 HP than anything I can thow at them. Generally the best choice for a druid is a lower rank or regrowth or Healing Touch in that case. Regrowth still faces the mana efficiency problems if the HoT doesn't fully run, a lower rank of Healing Touch is 3.5 seconds of me not casting on someone else and a Rejuv which would with +healing gear probably mostly top that of is still a HoT and means another attack could be fatal or near fatal.
I'm starting to get used to 5 mans with paladins who will throw a heal out early because I'm waiting to cast one of mine so I'm not running myself out of mana (though a paladin who knows how a druid heals and will only heal if 2 or more people are getting hurt and then pick the lower priority target first, not the high priority target that I'm already casting on or who throws that little Flash of Light on the primary target to give my big heal time to land is wonderful).
When you look at the spells though druids are more built to primary heal because they do not have flexible heals, they need to either use both of their HoTs and let them run to full or use Healing Touch. Regrowth is the only "oh #$%&" option and is nearly as slow as the "slow" heal for paladins and shaman.
Anyway just something to think about and maybe it will help out in those fighte were keeping healers from going OOM is the important thing.
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09-05-2005, 07:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2005, 07:38 AM by Trien.)
For the MC raid bosses, typically we assign a druid to each of the offtanks, along with a priest and paladin. Usually it ends up with the priest using greater heals, flash heals as necessary... not so sure about the paladins, but I think most of the time they're using their short cast heals. Myself, I typically keep rejuv refreshed as needed, and chain cast a rank 7 healing touch, cancelling as needed, and throwing regrowth only when needed. I'm running about +330 to healing, so rejuvs tick for 260+ every 2 seconds, not so sure about the regrowth number (no improved rejuv talent points). Mana conservation seems to work out pretty well overall.
Edit: correction, no rejuv talents, not no regrowth talents
Onyxia:
Kichebo - 85 NE Druid
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I do know some hardcore guilds that use druids as main healers, but i haven't been on raids with them since they're on a different server, so i can't comment on what patterns are used.
Their comment was that if you're in a situation where the guild can't control the hate, then a priest is much better. But since they rarely run into those situations, they use a druid as the main healer primarily for efficiency.
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The problem in a raid situation where a Druid is not the primary healer is that Healing Touch takes a LONG time to cast. Generally, if the priest is doing his job, the majority of a healing touch will be wasted as overhealing. Regrowth, on the other hand, has some decent front end damage and casts more quickly. Then the HoT takes some of the heat off the priests.
In my experience, it's FAR more efficient to use Healing Touch. But if I need to drop a quick spell and don't have Nature's Swiftness available, Regrowth is the way to go.
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WoW's "dirty little secret" when it comes to healing is that Druids are the superior single-target healers. Many Priest players get annoyed by this and want to be the end-all, be-all healing class, but Blizzard smartly did not let this happen.
Priests are the superior group healers and are better at keeping many players alive at once, but the superior single-target raid healer will be the Druid. Druids heal proactively while Priests are more reactive healers. I like both styles; I just need to find more time to play my Druid. :)
The reality of course is that it's best to have both Priests and Druids on a main tank, much better than having three Druids or three Priests. I don't know how the Avarice group is utilizing its healers, but I know that it would be more efficient to have Druids healing the main tank than Priests, assuming appropriate talent specs (restoration, disc/holy). Let the Priests, with their group heals, "oh crap" shields, and aggro reducers take care of secondary tanks and party members handling adds, since that's where a Priest shines.
If you have a Priest who is spec'ed out to maximize the power of Greater Heal, then they should obviously be healing the main tank with that - it's mega-efficient and will lengthen the ol' mana pool.
-Bolty
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Bolty,Sep 7 2005, 11:23 AM Wrote:If you have a Priest who is spec'ed out to maximize the power of Greater Heal, then they should obviously be healing the main tank with that - it's mega-efficient and will lengthen the ol' mana pool.[right][snapback]88480[/snapback][/right]
...and you will almost always be vastly overhealing (or interrupted by ctmod) due to some trigger-happy flash healer or nature's-swiftness druid. The emergency monitor in ctmod has a lot to answer for ;-)
It's the right idea in theory, but in practice people will either get their quicker heals in before you or shout at you when you mistime by 0.1 seconds and the tank ends up dead and you all end up wiped.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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lfd,Sep 7 2005, 07:28 AM Wrote:...and you will almost always be vastly overhealing (or interrupted by ctmod) due to some trigger-happy flash healer or nature's-swiftness druid. The emergency monitor in ctmod has a lot to answer for ;-)
It's the right idea in theory, but in practice people will either get their quicker heals in before you or shout at you when you mistime by 0.1 seconds and the tank ends up dead and you all end up wiped.
[right][snapback]88483[/snapback][/right]
And that was half my point. Most of the time a druid is reduced to one natures swiftness heal or wasting a ton of mana throwing around regrowth because everyone else is throwing the fast heals around.
Onyxia where I there is a very clear animation of when she is going to do real damage is one of the few 40 man raid encounters where I can actually use heals that don't just burn up my mana pool so that I can still feel like I'm helping the group. I get a great satisfaction for hearing all the flash heals get canceled. :)
The avarice alliance is mostly a free for all healing set-up. You watch your group and at times you have a specific tank to watch but everyone can throw heals where needed. Druids are rarely in a group with a tank. Which I think is just not using the druid as well as a druid can be.
The CTRA auto cancel isn't druid friendly either. I now have 3 ranks of regrowth and 4 ranks of healing touch on my main heal bar because in the 10 and 15 man raids I'm not using a rank 10 healing touch on a rogue who only has a max of 3200 HP. Especially not when I'm running around with +140 some healing. And yes there are quite a few times where it's me and maybe a paladin as the only healers in a 10 or 15 man because really that is all you need. UBRS will usually need more than that because of conflag but all this we need more healers when one healer can heal less people through the same instance never made sense to me. :)
Top rank regrowth, in practice, pretty much heals the 1.1K on the front and and maybe 1/2 have the 1K HoT will actually heal for 880 man so 880 mana for 1.6K healing I'd rather cast my rank 8 (-2 ranks) healing touch for 1.3-1.5K for only 490 or so mana. :)
And yes regrowth is our only oh #$%& option which is why it is also the worst mana efficiency heal we have and it is still almost as slow as the paladins "slow" heal. :) And as mentioned someone will then cast a flash heal or holy light that will make the HoT part of it compeletly pointless.
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lfd,Sep 7 2005, 07:28 AM Wrote:...and you will almost always be vastly overhealing (or interrupted by ctmod) due to some trigger-happy flash healer or nature's-swiftness druid. The emergency monitor in ctmod has a lot to answer for ;-)[right][snapback]88483[/snapback][/right] Oh, I know this is quite so, because I see it all the time in 5-mans, even. If I'm doing my Priestly Thang⢠and another healer is in the group, I see them panic the moment the tank is down to 50% health and start healing. Of course, I don't even start casting Greater Heal until the tank is down to 50% health, because it'll land when it's at 30% or so and slap them back up to 90%+ with ultra healing efficiency. Makes quite a difference in critical fights such as the Emperor of BRD, where the mana pool WILL get stretched to the limit of a non-epic-decked-out healer.
Standard disclaimers: yes, I know this won't work in many raid encounters because the damage comes much faster than that; I am merely providing the typical 5-man example.
It comes down either to trust, as your raid healers learn not to panic so much and be more efficient, better healers, or simply waiting for the trigger-happy ones to run out of mana so a more formal healer rotation can be set up. Experience with the raid encounters will also help, once the healers get to know what to expect and become more proactive instead of reactive (hint: proactive healing good, reactive healing bad).
The trust thing is very hard to establish; in pickup groups it's nonexistent and I've seen tanks pop potions when they're at 40% health because they just don't trust that the Greater Heal is coming. Or else they're so used to trigger-happy flash heals at 70% that they don't know about the big honking heals that are much more mana efficient (and better for aggro purposes, giving more time for the tank to establish aggro before the heals come).
CTmod's heal cancelling abilities are awesome and should be taken advantage of. But if a player can never get off ANY big heals due to constant flash healing, the healers should try to work out better systems of play. Consider it 2 cents from someone who hasn't been in a single Avarice raid and thus can play Mr. Ivory Tower. :)
-Bolty
Quote:Considering the mods here are generally liberals who seem to have a soft spot for fascism and white supremacy (despite them saying otherwise), me being perma-banned at some point is probably not out of the question.
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Due to the way +healing and the 5-second rule work together, I see two good alternatives: backup heal by using Regrowth and Rejuvenation, and count seconds so I know when to renew them, or have two healers cycling middle-sized Greater Heals or Healing Touches in alternation.
My mana pool is pretty adequate (or so I think) at 6k or so and I have about +150 heal, but I definitely feel the mana burn when I'm casting regrowths all over the place. (maybe I'm one of those contributing to the problem?)
I'm not all that big on trusting the greater heals to come through, because of crit hits from the Molten Destroyers. In my view, the tanks need to be kept topped up to avoid having them suddenly go down from an unlucky hit, or from having them suddenly swing aggro from something else that got uncontrolled... Or from the healers having lag. I get a lot of lag in MC, which really hurts fine tuning heals.
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Tuftears,Sep 7 2005, 01:10 PM Wrote:I'm not all that big on trusting the greater heals to come through, because of crit hits from the Molten Destroyers. In my view, the tanks need to be kept topped up to avoid having them suddenly go down from an unlucky hit, or from having them suddenly swing aggro from something else that got uncontrolled... Or from the healers having lag. I get a lot of lag in MC, which really hurts fine tuning heals.[right][snapback]88515[/snapback][/right] Remember it's easy for me to sit here and say "you should be using the big heals more" since I haven't been in any of these raids. I'm obsessed with healing efficiency because I know it can pull groups out of the fire during significant battles (read: bosses, ugly pulls), and, well, because that's what PvE healers obsess about. :)
I guess it comes down to this: what's the biggest % life chunk you've seen get knocked off a tank in 2 seconds? Would a healing rotation of big heals and small heals be able to handle it, given CTRA healing stoppages at the correct percentages? And what would those percentages be? It all depends on the rate of reliable heals and the rate of health loss for the tanks, taken in percentages.
A Priest with Master Healer, lots of +healing equipment, and using Heal rank 2 can be more efficient than a talent-maxed Flash Healer. This is because the heals are fairly speedy, get a decent amount of heal, but do so for significantly less mana cost than a flash heal. The problem is that this is all theorycraft to me, since I have not put it into practice in a raid situation - I've only heard of it being done by Priest raiders. MongoJerry could probably comment better on that possibility.
-Bolty
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I feel that paladin heals are a bit under represented, so here is some data. I've placed my own conclusions at the bottom. I haven't played my druid to high enough levels or started a priest, so I am definately biased in my paladin understanding. Hopefully this data will provide more resolution to the issue.
Assuming maxed talents of ImpHL and ImpFoL, a 3000 mana pool, BoL3 and Improved BoW.
Paladin Healing / Damage prevention Abilities
Improved Holy Light +12% healing to Holy Light
Improved Flash of Light -12% mana cost on Flash of Light Spells
Blessing of Light - At rank 3 provides 115 extra healing with FoL and 400 extra healing with HL that are cast on the player. (You cast it at the target, not the healer)
Blessing of Wisdom - adds 30 mana per 5 seconds, no casting penalties
Improved Blessing of Wisdom - adds 36 mana per 5 seconds, no casting penalties
Blessing of Sacrifice - Transfers the first 55 damage of a hit done to target to caster for 30 seconds
Blessing of Sanctuary - First 24 points of damage of any hit done to target are blocked
Eff - Health heal per mana point spent
C/s - Mana cost of spell per second
CP(s) - Length of time a Paladin can heal at this level in seconds
Heals - Number of heals that can be cast
Code: Power Eff C/s CP(s) Heals Total Health
FoL1 124.67 6.07 13.33 225.00 150.00 28050
FoL2 149.67 5.10 22.13 135.54 90.36 20286
FoL3 184.67 4.50 33.87 88.58 59.06 16358
FoL4 222.33 4.21 45.60 65.79 43.86 14627
FoL5 272.67 4.04 60.27 49.78 33.19 13573
FoL6 322.33 3.92 74.93 40.04 26.69 12905
HL1 52.83 3.77 6.80 441.18 176.47 23308
HL2 87.65 3.65 16.80 178.57 71.43 15651
HL3 161.31 3.67 36.80 81.52 32.61 13150
HL4 314.56 4.14 68.80 43.60 17.44 13716
HL5 400.80 3.64 102.80 29.18 11.67 11696
HL6 499.58 3.42 138.80 21.61 8.65 10798
HL7 617.86 3.32 178.80 16.78 6.71 10367
HL8 761.66 3.28 224.80 13.35 5.34 10165
Most paladins have mana pools at 3500. With buffs it goes up to 4-5k. I've heard of paladins with 7-8k pools unbuffed, but this is extreme.
Paladin healing efficiency is the best, however their healing per second and mana pools are less worthy. I believe that the best healing would be paladins spam healing with HL4 or FoL6 on the MT while other healers cover the rest of the party. An additional healer should be tasked with extra healing during crits or spell attacks.
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09-07-2005, 09:36 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2005, 09:38 PM by Kevin.)
Yes, paladins are excellent healers and their faster heals are fantastic smoothers on a tank. I have an L52 paladin and he has been main or only healer in several instances starting with Gnomeregan up through Zul and Mara (haven't gotten into ST yet). At L45 I was able to have a 3500 mana pool and still hold 45% damage reduction to mobs my level. 4K mana pools should not be hard at all for a paladin that knows they will be healing. I'm wearing leather, mail, and plate, I had some cloth items but those have all been replaced.
Paladins generally don't get used right either and a palain spamming the smaller heals while a druid or greather heal spec priest spams the larger heals is quite possibly the most mana and health/sec efficient combo that you can have. My opening post shows that with Blessing of Light up (and you can't have this up in all Fights, Garr will wipe it off so many times it isn't worth having up) paladins can have the best HP/s or the best HP/MP healing of any class in the game. The only thing that can beat a paladin is crits and even a druid with the full talent won't have enough regrowth crits to beat a paladin with talented HL and active BoL up. A holy/protection paladin with Blessing of Sanctuary and judging seal of light (I look at seal of light as a form of damage mitigation, not healing) also provides excellent damage mitigation with their healing power, as those two combined are dropping damage by around 100 per hit when you get a proc of judgement of light.
In a 5 man a paladin actually heals more like a druid than a priest as well if they are only healer and want to be efficient. Sure Flash of Light is more efficient when talented and with BoL up but generally only have BoL on the MT and then as only healer you don't get enough HP/s most of the time to keep them up.
But yeah this thread was about druids in specific but paladins are great healers too. I actually suggested that a paladin be the primary healer on the Majordomo tank in Molten core because of the way damage comes in in that fight. Free a preist up with those wonderful flash heals to help out the rest of the raid. :)
Against someone like Lucifron who will crit a tank for 2K damage a paladin won't cut it though without help. Though a paladin and druid could do a damn good job on the tank there.
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When comparing healers, I think it's more valuable to compare using figures typical on healing specialised paladins than average paladins - we've all seen Paladins whose most used healing spell in an instance is Lay on Hands after the rest of the party has wiped and I'd never ask one of those to act as main healer :)
Paladin mana pools, for a Paladin built to be a main healer, can be very substantial. They have the widest equipment choice of any healer and thanks to low-aggro heals and higher AC (even with some cloth/leather/mail mixed in) don't need Stamina as much as Priests or Druids. They don't have any talents that give spirit based regen while casting, so Spirit isn't as useful for them either. A total of 250 Int on gear seems easily achievable which gives 4150 mana plus their base mana pool.
As equipment quality improves - particularly +healing gear - I feel that the actual dark horse in the healing stakes is the Shaman. The Shaman is the only healing class with a talent that reduces the casting time of a heal spell below 3.5 seconds and hence the only class that can get more than the standard return in health per second from equipping +healing gear. (Priests and Druids do get some overlap by having a +heal boosted HOT ticking along with regular casting, but only one healer per target gets that effect).
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