Finetuning my Frost respec

[WildFire]

Having secured a fair amount of +dmg items, I've decided to respec Kateley to a frost/arcane build. Fire is getting old after 10 months.

However, after poring over a fair amount of literature and fiddling with the talent calculator repeatedly, I'm still coming away without a build I'm comfortable with and with many questions.

First of all, I can't decide if I should go with a 31 Arcane/20 Frost build, or a 21 Arcane/30 Frost.

In the first case, I'll go all the way down to Arcane Power, via PoM and Arcane Instability.

• Arcane Talents (31 points)
  
  # Improved Arcane Missiles - 5/5 points
  Gives you a 100% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while channeling Arcane Missiles.
  
  # Arcane Concentration - 5/5 points
  Gives you a 10% chance of entering a Clearcasting state after any damage spell hits a target. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%.
  
  # Evocation - 1/1 point
  While channeling this spell, your mana regeneration is active and increased by 1500%. Lasts 8 seconds.
  
  # Improved Arcane Explosion - 5/5 points
  Reduces the casting time of your Arcane Explosion by 1.5 seconds.
  
  # Improved Counterspell - 2/2 points
  Gives your Counterspell a 100% chance to silence the target for 4 seconds.
  
  # Arcane Meditation - 4/5 points
  Allows 12% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting.
  
  # Presence of Mind - 1/1 point
  When activated, your next Mage spell with a casting time less than 10 seconds becomes an instant cast spell.
  
  # Arcane Mind - 4/4 points
  Increases your maximum Mana by 8%.
  
  # Arcane Instability - 3/3 points
  Increases your spell damage and critical strike chance by 3%.
  
  # Arcane Power - 1/1 point
  When activated, your spells deal 35% more damage while costing 35% more mana to cast. This effect lasts 15 seconds.
  
  
  Frost Talents (20 points)
  
  # Improved Frostbolt - 5/5 points
  Reduces the casting time of your Frostbolt spell by 0.5 seconds.
  
  # Ice Shards - 5/5 points
  Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Frost spells by 100%.
  
  # Improved Frost Nova - 2/2 points
  Reduces the cooldown of your Frost Nova spell by 4 seconds.
  
  # Cold Snap - 1/1 point
  When activated, this spell finishes the cooldown on all of your frost spells.
  
  # Piercing Ice - 3/3 points
  Increases the damage done by your frost spells by 6%.
  
  # Arctic Reach - 2/2 points
  Increases the range of your Frostbolt spell and the radius of your Frost Nova and Cone of Cold spells by 20%.
  
  # Shatter - 2/5 points
  Increases the critical strike chance of your frost spells against frozen targets by 20%.<>
  [st]Looks good on paper, but I'm wondering whether the points into Shatter are worth anything when you don't put points into Frostbite as well. As I understand it, without Frostbite, the only way to freeze targets would be with Frost Nova. And we all know how long one of those lasts. I'm pretty sure I won't be able to pull off a Frostbolt before a mob gets loose again.
  
  
  The 21 Arcane/30 Frost has me with...
  • Arcane Talents (21 points)
    
    # Improved Arcane Missiles - 5/5 points
    Gives you a 100% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while channeling Arcane Missiles.
    
    # Arcane Concentration - 5/5 points
    Gives you a 10% chance of entering a Clearcasting state after any damage spell hits a target. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%.
    
    # Evocation - 1/1 point
    While channeling this spell, your mana regeneration is active and increased by 1500%. Lasts 8 seconds.
    
    # Improved Arcane Explosion - 5/5 points
    Reduces the casting time of your Arcane Explosion by 1.5 seconds.
    
    # Improved Counterspell - 2/2 points
    Gives your Counterspell a 100% chance to silence the target for 4 seconds.
    
    # Arcane Meditation - 2/5 points
    Allows 6% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting.
    
    # Presence of Mind - 1/1 point
    When activated, your next Mage spell with a casting time less than 10 seconds becomes an instant cast spell.
    
    
    Frost Talents (30 points)
    
    # Improved Frostbolt - 5/5 points
    Reduces the casting time of your Frostbolt spell by 0.5 seconds.
    
    # Ice Shards - 5/5 points
    Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Frost spells by 100%.
    
    # Improved Frost Nova - 2/2 points
    Reduces the cooldown of your Frost Nova spell by 4 seconds.
    
    # Cold Snap - 1/1 point
    When activated, this spell finishes the cooldown on all of your frost spells.
    
    # Piercing Ice - 2/3 points
    Increases the damage done by your frost spells by 4%.
    
    # Arctic Reach - 2/2 points
    Increases the range of your Frostbolt spell and the radius of your Frost Nova and Cone of Cold spells by 20%.
    
    # Shatter - 5/5 points
    Increases the critical strike chance of your frost spells against frozen targets by 50%.
    
    # Ice Block - 1/1 point
    You become encased in a block of ice, protecting you from all physical attacks and spells for 10 seconds, but during that time you cannot attack, move, or cast spells.
    
    # Improved Cone of Cold - 2/3 points
    Increases the damage dealt by your Cone of Cold spell by 25%.
    
    # Frostbite - 5/5 points
    Gives your chill effects a 15% chance to freeze the target for 5 seconds.<>
    [st]This looks to me to be a more PvE, non-raid build, with freezing/shattering optimised with full investments into Frostbite and Shatter.
    
    However, I'm wondering whether Presence of Mind will be all that useful in a Frost build, given that Frost Bolt is the only thing with a casting time. Always seen PoM as something you pair with Pyroblast.
    
    Maybe drop PoM for Ice Barrier, and turn it into a 31 Frost/20 Arcane build instead?
    
    On a more general note, similiar with the fact that you can't have Presence of Mind AND Combustion on a Fire/Arcane build, I note that you can't have the two yummies of Arcane Power and Ice Block in a Frost/Arcane build.
    
    I know that Cold Snap paired with Ice Block is something that would be great for the Geddon fight, but is Arcane Power worth more than that?
    

[Skandranon]

(power 18 snipped)
# Arcane Meditation - 4/5 points
Allows 12% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting.

Doesn't stack with Mage Armor and frequently just stops working out of the blue. Points here are not good investments until Blizzard fixes the acknowledged bugs with this talent.

# Arcane Power - 1/1 point
When activated, your spells deal 35% more damage while costing 35% more mana to cast. This effect lasts 15 seconds.

Arcane Power is a bit of a strange talent in the PvE raiding endgame. It's more a PvP/elite quest tool prior to 60 and outside of raids, as it just enhances DPS and not DPM. If you don't plan on raiding much, but do intend to do a lot of PvP, Arcane Power can be a good choice. It's also somewhat handy in PvE, but you obviously don't need it to solo nonelites or to complete 5-man instances.

For a number of raid encounters, especially in MC but also to a certain extent in ZG, you need mana efficiency until your equipment gets better. Especially if you're doing ZG before gearing up in MC. It was the reason I respecced Rylea to Frost: I was just tired of going OOM halfway through fights because my primary attack was Missiles. Frostbolt's efficiency means that at the point when you're OOM (because you will be before you're kitted out in epics) you'll have done more damage. Arcane Power doesn't change this: it doesn't hurt, but it also doesn't help. I suppose there's a marginal improvement to going OOM earlier so you can start wanding earlier.

On the other hand, once you've reached enough mana that you aren't going to run out, Arcane Power can become very useful again. As your equipment improves, you'll find that you're ending engagements with more and more blue left in the tank. It only makes sense to use AP to use some of that up and finish bosses faster.

Looks good on paper, but I'm wondering whether the points into Shatter are worth anything when you don't put points into Frostbite as well. As I understand it, without Frostbite, the only way to freeze targets would be with Frost Nova. And we all know how long one of those lasts. I'm pretty sure I won't be able to pull off a Frostbolt before a mob gets loose again.

Max shatter can be useful without frostbite, but only two points is definitely not worth it. Keep in mind that even with frostbite, you don't see the proc that often, so shatter will almost always be powering crits off a frost nova. However, here you're investing four points, two of which are going into a fairly useless prereq, for a relatively small crit chance increase.

If you're intending to do some end-game raiding, it would be a good idea to pick up Frost Channelling. I stand by my original assessment that it's useless from 1-59 and in non-raid stuff in 60; you simply don't fight anything that takes long enough for Frost Channelling to make a difference. But in MC especially, when frostbolt is the only thing you'll be casting most fights, Channelling makes a difference. Each point in there translates to 5% more mana. And unlike Arcane Mind, which is 2% more *max* mana per point, the cost reduction is essentially a buff to all mana - your mana pots, mana gems and evocation are giving you effectively 5% more mana per point in Channelling.

However, I'm wondering whether Presence of Mind will be all that useful in a Frost build, given that Frost Bolt is the only thing with a casting time. Always seen PoM as something you pair with Pyroblast.

Maybe drop PoM for Ice Barrier, and turn it into a 31 Frost/20 Arcane build instead?
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Presence of Mind still remains interesting in a Frost build, though mostly for PvP. You can chain it with Fireball (yes, in a Frost build) for a mini PoM Pyro or with Polymorph for various reasons (one of which is the Majordomo Executus fight). It's less useful, but ice barrier is not all that useful either.

[Bob the Beholder]

I am agreeing with Skan on many things here. I would just like to expand on the PoM topic here: It can be very useful with a frost build, to make sure that you can get a frostbolt off before Frost Nova breaks. But, with PoM, you'd have to wait for the universal cooldown before hitting the cone of cold part of the usual frost nova-frostbolt-cone of cold burst damage combo, and the frost bolt itself may break the frost nova in that time. Wheras if you do the full casting time of Frostbolt, the universal cooldown is over by the time it's done casting, and you can time a cone of cold to hit at exactly the same time as the frostbolt, thus giving both of them the Shatter bonus. (Which is a very powerful thing. With a hilariously well equipped mage (lots of +spell damage), I've seen that three-spell combo do over 3,000 damage.)

[WildFire]

To focus this discussion further and potentially arrive at a suitable build, I think I can say that Kateley is not into PvP (no BGs either) and will most likely be spending most of her time in MC or ZG, with maybe intermittent trips into the upper end regular instances like Strath, Schol and the various ones in BRM.

I think Kateley has fairly good gear. +Dmg stuff include the Crimson Felt Hat, Staff of the Ogre Magi, Robe of the Archmage, Briarwood Thorn and Skyshroud Pants. I do expect that some MC stuff like Choker of Enlightenment and Talisman of Ephemeral Power will arrive eventually - pretty low down on the pecking order, as it is, at the moment.

I suppose it is also worth mentioning that I play from across the Pacific and have to play with 600-700 pings, and frequently go past 1k... so fancy chaining and timing of spells to maximise Shatter proccing is probably going to be a tad bit difficult.

[Skandranon]

To focus this discussion further and potentially arrive at a suitable build, I think I can say that Kateley is not into PvP (no BGs either) and will most likely be spending most of her time in MC or ZG, with maybe intermittent trips into the upper end regular instances like Strath, Schol and the various ones in BRM.

Then Frost Channelling is a no-brainer. Whatever spec you choose, put three points there. One specs frost for efficiency in the endgame, and Channelling is a strong enhancement to that.

I think Kateley has fairly good gear. +Dmg stuff include the Crimson Felt Hat, Staff of the Ogre Magi, Robe of the Archmage, Briarwood Thorn and Skyshroud Pants. I do expect that some MC stuff like Choker of Enlightenment and Talisman of Ephemeral Power will arrive eventually - pretty low down on the pecking order, as it is, at the moment.

It's good gear, just a little light on stats due to the stat/damage tradeoff. Picking damage is the better bet and you do appear to have all the best pre-MC stuff, but I can already see that your mana pool is not going to be particularly high. At this time, with this gear, I'd advise a pass on Arcane Power. Most fights will run you out of mana on their own and Arcane Power's sole effect will be to get you to the wand phase faster.

To sum up my last two posts:

Don't take points in Arcane Meditation.
Arcane Power is probably not a good idea right now.
Make sure to max Frost Channelling.
If you're going to take Shatter, max it.
PoM and Ice Barrier are both nice but not overwhelming.

[LochnarITB]

but ice barrier is not all that useful either.
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The only thing I was going to argue with was the above, but then you said this.

PoM and Ice Barrier are both nice but not overwhelming.
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I love my Ice Barrier. It has kept my squishie from being squashed many times. Saying Ice Barrier is not that useful is like saying PW:S is not that useful. Although it absorbs a little less damage and has a longer cooldown, its first cast function is essentially the same as PW:S. I have never regretted spending that point.

[Skandranon]

I love my Ice Barrier.&nbsp; It has kept my squishie from being squashed many times.&nbsp; Saying Ice Barrier is not that useful is like saying PW:S is not that useful.&nbsp; Although it absorbs a little less damage and has a longer cooldown, its first cast function is essentially the same as PW:S.&nbsp; I have never regretted spending that point.
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Actually, it's identical to PW:S; so identical that they count as the same spell. If you're shielded with the max rank of PW:S, you cannot ice barrier - you get the "more powerful spell is active" message that a lower rank of PW:S would get.

Yeah, Ice Barrier is handy, especially in solo situations and lower-rank instances like UBRS. It makes a nice thing to pop up in the middle of an AoE fight, or to use if there's no priest around. On the other hand, over the long run, the situations where it saves you are going to be few and far between, and the majority of those situations are going to be where something went critically wrong solo. In raid instances, which is what Wildfire is speccing for, ice barrier isn't going to make a huge difference. If you've got aggro, a flimsy 826 damage barrier isn't going to save you from a Lava Surger kicking out 3.4k crits. Ice Block will.

Of the two, Ice Block is clearly the more powerful. If it were a choice between Ice Barrier and Arcane Power I'd select AP in a heartbeat. However, the matchup in question is Presence of Mind and Ice Barrier. PoM: good for Domo, and a slight DPS increase for when you PoM a frostbolt or fireball. Generally, more flexible overall. Ice Barrier: for when you get hit by RSTS and no heal is likely. Barrier isn't a solution to the eternal mage problem of overnuking and pulling aggro in raid instances, since either the mob's going to be taunted off you or you die. There are times when Ice Barrier will save you; there are going to be many, many more times where you put it up and die anyway, but don't remember it.

What it boils down to is that PoM/Ice Barrier is a matter of personal taste. Neither has particularly broad application in raid instances. It's just that Ice Barrier isn't a "got-to-have-it, rush-to-31" kind of talent like Mortal Strike or Innervate. No frost build should ever be built around the idea that you have to get to Ice Barrier; it's just not good enough to rate that kind of thinking.

[The Gnu]

I've tried a couple of various arcane/frost builds, and this is the one I'm currently using. It's focused on MC/Onyxia, but seem to be viable in Zul'Gurub and BWL too. I'll comment based on MC-usefulness only, even though many talents have other qualities for other situations.

Arcane: (28 points)
Improved Arcane Missiles (5/5)
Useful for surgers and other flighty opponents, due to the extending range once you have started the fiering sequence.

Arcane Concentration (5/5)
More mana. Gotta love it.

Improved Arcane Explosion (5/5)
Not essential for MC, since blizzard can cover most of it's uses. My mage has a lot of HP however, so I like to use AE on the imp encounters, to guarantee that I get aggro over other casters once the warrior shout wears off. With good shielding and healing, and Ice Block if needed, we usually take down imp groups without any deaths.

Evocation (5/5)
With the mana efficiency of a frost build, a single evocation can earn you another couple of minutes of constant fiering. Especially if you combine it with mana stones and potions.

Improved Counterspell (2/2)
Completly useless in MC, since all spellcasting mobs are immune to the silencing effect. I just can't live without it for other reasons. :)

Arcane Meditation (2/5)
Slightly dubious, I know, since I'm not sure if this talent is still bugged with or without Mage Armor. No other talent in the tree would make a big difference with my current playstyle though, so I'm keeping these points here.

Prescense of Mind (1/1)
As pointed out earlier, mostly useful in the Majordomo encounter. Especially if you're unlucky and your sheep pops with the magic reflection shield still active. I usually blink away, wait for him to get close, ice block. Then I release the Ice Block before he gets to the healers and PoM-Sheep.

Arcane Mind (4/4)
Mana. That's what I eat to make magic.

Arcane Instability (3/3)
More damage, simple as that.

Frost: (23 points)

Improved Frostbolt (5/5)
My main damage dealer, so this is a no-brainer.

Ice Shards (5/5)
Damage. Mmmmmmdamage.

Piercing Ice (3/3)
See the previous comment.

Cold Snap (1/1)
98% of the time used to quicken up the cooldown on Ice Block. I occationally use it to save healers from runaway Imps with a second Frost Nova.

Improved Blizzard (1/3)
Just a place to dump a leftover point. Our melee usually handle the spawns from the Fire Lords, so we don't even use Blizzard against them. (unless we accidentily pull 2 Firelords at once) I use AE and Cone of Cold for the Core Hound Packs.

Arctic Reach (2/2)
Priceless. Allows you to stay out of Magmadar's fear range and the AoE damage/debuffs from the Lava Packs. Makes your positioning in most fights more flexible.

Frost Channeling (3/3)
I've tried frost builds both with and without this talent, and the difference is huge. With my mana regen equipment on, I can go through the more lenghty fights without getting into mana trouble due to this talent.

Ice Block (1/1)
Survivability's #1. Well, #2 if you count the paladin bubble. :D
Save yourself from damage, save yourself from aggro. Remove Geddon's bomb or Azuregos' Mark of Frost or Lord Kazzak's Twisted Reflection. HALO jump into the Un'Goro crater and Ice Block 10 inches from the ground. The possibilities are endless. :lol:

Improved Cone of Cold (2/3)
Admittedly not very useful for MC, but a nice dps boost against Core Hound Packs, Imps and Onyxia's whelp groups.


I've honestly never had Ice Barrier, but I can't afford the 50g for a respec atm to fill out that blank. :P Can imagine it easing up a bit on the healers' mana (or your bandage usage) though.

[LochnarITB]

What it boils down to is that PoM/Ice Barrier is a matter of personal taste.&nbsp; Neither has particularly broad application in raid instances.&nbsp; It's just that Ice Barrier isn't a "got-to-have-it, rush-to-31" kind of talent like Mortal Strike or Innervate.&nbsp; No frost build should ever be built around the idea that you have to get to Ice Barrier; it's just not good enough to rate that kind of thinking.
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And, nowhere did I say it was a must have. I was relating my choice, my "personal taste", which is:

I love my Ice Barrier...I have never regretted spending that point.

*sigh* It is so frustrating to add a comment to a thread when you end up jumping all over it. It feels like being a comedian's straight man. "I'll throw out my opinion so that Skan can, once again, demonstrate how his opinion is the only valid one."

[Skandranon]

And, nowhere did I say it was a must have.[right][snapback]89544[/snapback][/right]

And nowhere did I say you said it. But this is WildFire's thread, and I have to talk to WildFire, too, when I respond to you. He was wondering if it was worth dropping PoM for Ice Barrier and I decided more expansion on the subject was necessary. That's all.

EDIT: I would also like to add that as of the time of this writing, *I* have Ice Barrier and like it. So any condemnation of your choice that you read into the earlier post was a misinterpretation.