Druid Changes - 1.8

[Skandranon]

Fire does more than Frost. So using the Mage's weaker nuke to compare with the Druid's strongest is a false argument, unless you are specifically referring to MC. In which case your statement should be Balance druids will outnuke mages in MC, not will outnuke them period

Also BWL. In other words, Druids outnuke Mages in the two instances where it really matters. Mages tend to outDPS rogues in the Deadmines, too, but we don't perform that comparison because it doesn't matter. Using fire spells at all is a false argument where serious PvE is concerned. The endgame isn't everything, etc, etc, but this thread is about the endgame, so mentioning fireball at all is a detour.

Mana plays a huge part in this. If the druid can outnuke the mage for 20 seconds but then goes oom in half the time, the mage may still be the better nuker on a tough raid boss. Frost Bolt is the most mana efficient of the repeatable Mage nukes and can be specced for even greater mana efficiency

I pointed that out, Brista, thanks. Actually, the numbers are not that far off. Druids can get around 1.8 damage per mana, as GG showed, and fully specced frost mages get around 2.0.

Next the Mage can add two powerful instants in to the mix

Fireblast is too short-ranged and is fire damage and CoC is even shorter range. Not that they're useless, but this point of yours directly contradicts earlier points you've made. Mage has greater efficiency - so let's use the terribly inefficient Fireblast and CoC? Mage is a specialist who can focus on one kind of +damage - so let's use both a fire and a frost spell?

Using these instants almost guarantees the mage will run OOM rapidly for not a particularly great DPS increase.

And lastly in terms of pure dps output the Mage can raise the whole output by 33% and toss in a POM Pyroblast if the issue of burst damage becomes important

If they're arcane specced. There are mages without Arcane Power and Presence of Mind, you know. As a matter of fact, three-quarters of the mages in my guild don't have Arcane Power. This is also a false argument, and you know it.

[TheWesson]

I do.

1.7 Improved Starfire - 3% chance to stun for 3 seconds per point.
1.8 Improved Starfire - -0.1s casting time and 3% chance to stun for 3 seconds per point.  Maxed out, it reduces Starfire's cast from 3.5s to 3.0s.

Starfire just got a 14% boost in DPS.

Frostbolt: 429-463 damage, with talents, 2.5s cast time.  DPS = 178.4
Starfire: 445-525 damage, with talents, 3.0s cast time.  DPS = 161.6

Pure frostbolt is still stronger, except that druids have an instant-cast DoT and mages don't.

Moonfire: 205 dps for one second (at cast), 32 dps DoT for the next 12 seconds.

This is without factoring in the fact that frost spells only get up to +6% in damage from talents and starfire/moonfire get +10%, along with the fact that moonfire gets huge damage and crit chance increases from talents and frostbolt doesn't.  Nor does this count Nature's Grace and the fact that every critical results in a flurry-like effect of temporarily increased DPS. 

Even factoring all those out, druids sustain ~190 dps on targets burning from moonfire and getting starfired, and have short 200 dps bursts when they refresh their moonfire.  Mages hold a line at 178.4.  +damage gear, assuming equal amounts, tilts slightly in Starfire's favour as well - it gets 100% of the bonus and Frostbolt gets 81.4%. 

Mages are still more efficient.  But I'm not quite sure that as a DPS class, the mage should be  "fifth best and third most efficient single-target damage in the game".
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No increased crit for Frost? What about Shatter? Anyhow, you're tilting the scales here by comparing to Frostbolt, which is balanced for lower damage due to its slowing effect.

Arcane Missiles (rank 7) = 192 dps, can easily be made uninterruptible-by-damage, can benefit from Arcane Power (+35% damage = 259 dps). (Arcane Power lasts 15 seconds and has a 3-minute cooldown). Arcane Missiles isn't even the best single-target damage.

The real DPS mages are fire mages. What's the classic fire mage opener? Presence of Mind + (instant) Pyroblast ...? I've not done a fire mage but the numbers say, given +10% damage from talents, PoM/Pyroblast is an instant giving 880 damage right away (before crits) and another 275 over time. So after PoM/Pyro you could sit around casting 3-sec fireballs for 700 damage apiece = 230 dps, +10 dps from burning, = 240 dps. This is not counting crits, increased crit chance from talents, fire vulnerability from Scorch (or whatever combos fire mages do), etc. You can also make fire spells 75% interruption-resistant ... I don't see that talent for Starfire.

And then the mages have much better crowd control too, as well as superior AoE.

So the Balance druid in Moonkin form is something like 75%-80% of a mage. With good physical resistance. Which I think is interesting but not overwhelming.

[Artega]

Most Fire mages I've fought typically open with Pyroblast then a PoM+Fireball.

[TheWesson]

If they're arcane specced.  There are mages without Arcane Power and Presence of Mind, you know.  As a matter of fact, three-quarters of the mages in my guild don't have Arcane Power.  This is also a false argument, and you know it.
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Well my guild requires all mages to be arcane specced for BWL/MC, which as you know is THE endgame. Which is what this thread is about! Or, no wait , was PVP the endgame? Or maybe there's some other end game entirely, which of course is what the whole game is about. I guess.

Anyhow, a non-arcane-specced mage is just non-optimal in BWL/MC. Therefore all mages are arcane mages, and therefore they out-dps Moonkins by a large amouint.

The real problem here is that mages can make water. :whistling: Don't tell anyone. They hate it if you know that.

[Carnifex]

Feral-Spec'd druids with Nature's Grasp might just be the ideal choice in Zul'Gurub as off-tank/main assist.

In 40-man raids, druids need to be careful how they spec. If you crunch the numbers I'm guessing you'll find that raids will want exactly one feral spec grouped with the physical dps and one balance spec with the nukers, with the remaining all being restoration.

The problem being most raids want at least 25% of the raid to be healers, and a druid that is not restoration spec'd pales in comparison to his priestly brethren for healing purposes. Spec out of restoration at the raid level at your own risk.

That being said, I love the changes. For 5 man groups where we have a decent 4 players, I'll always look for a druid for that 5th spot. Regardless of spec, that druid will make the group 40% better. (Doesn't hurt that the druid might be the best class for "the player at the keyboard is least likely to suck")

[Quark]

The real DPS mages are fire mages.
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You cannot possibly play raids and believe this.

[Tuftears]

(Doesn't hurt that the druid might be the best class for "the player at the keyboard is least likely to suck")

This was true up to 1.7, but might be less true in 1.8 with druids become a new 'fad build', and the new feral druids complaining 'I'm feral, I'm not getting the most out of my talents if you make me heal!'...

[Skandranon]

Well my guild requires all mages to be arcane specced for BWL/MC, which as you know is THE endgame.  Which is what this thread is about! Or, no wait , was PVP the endgame?  Or maybe there's some other end game entirely, which of course is what the whole game is about.  I guess. 
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What you consider to be the end-game is your own personal choice. However, the majority of the thread has been on the topic of end game PvE raids. If you prefer PvP, or something else, that's perfectly okay. You can feel free not to respond.

[Skandranon]

No increased crit for Frost?  What about Shatter?

can benefit from Arcane Power

The real DPS mages are fire mages.

And then the mages have much better crowd control too, as well as superior AoE.
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Sigh. Okay, you're right. For solo PvE, low-level PvE, PvP, and for fifteen seconds out of every three minutes for 31 arcane mages, mages still outnuke balance druids. For MC/BWL, balance druids outnuke mages.

I will let the reader determine the relative priority of those situations him or herself.

[savaughn]

Damn, I didn't even think about wrath.  You're right.  Wrath and moonfire let a druid break 200 easily.  And they also get to AoE with 360% extra armour.  Oh, and they can decurse.

I've always maintained that for the majority of MC bosses, the optimal number of mages is zero.  It's just more obvious now.
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Call me crazy, but I always thought that the biggest thing a Mage brings to the table for end game raids was Arcane Subtlety. This doesn't make nearly as big a difference on the Alliance side where the Paladins can throw Salvation, but horde side this makes a massive difference in how much damage you can throw out.

With Subtlety AND Salvation, a Mage who swaps out to AM on occassion literally CAN'T pull aggro. You're talking about a 70% reduction in threat. My AE may be throwing out crit hits for 500+ but carries only slightly more threat than a Hunter's Volley.

I know it sounds kind of off topic, but I think this kind of thing is far from trivial and I use it as an example of what I see as the overall picture. Given optimal nuking builds, I think real world results will still put a mage far and away ahead of druids. I think blizz did exactly the right thing with the balance tree. It's close enough that the "it must be optimal or you can't come" crowd can't ban Balance druids, without removing the role of a mage. It's a tricky line to walk.

Similarly, to flip the argument over and say that Druids now obsolete mages... well, that requires you to ignore a lot of the mechanics that come in to play in these encounters. I think your pessimism is misplaced, Skan. We don't have to pwnX0r any given area in the game to have a use. It's like the discussion we had where you were concerned that because warlocks can contribute significantly to AoE, that this somehow obsoleted mages. It wasn't true then and it's not true here.

I haven't had a chance to raid with a Moonkin in my group yet, but I personally look forward to it. :wub: Arcane/Ice Crit Power... ACTIVATE! :P

[Skandranon]

With Subtlety AND Salvation, a Mage who swaps out to AM on occassion literally CAN'T pull aggro.  You're talking about a 70% reduction in threat.  My AE may be throwing out crit hits for 500+ but carries only slightly more threat than a Hunter's Volley.

We're not certain whether subtlety and salvation actually stack. Given recent experiences with Broodlord Lashlayer, we're leaning in the direction of them not stacking.

I agree Subtlety is nice, but for aggro sensitive fights it really makes sense just to bring hunters.

Given optimal nuking builds, I think real world results will still put a mage far and away ahead of druids.

Just curious. What real world conditions do you believe will make the difference "far and away" superior? I can see how you might argue that some conditions might put the mage slightly ahead again, but it's difficult to see how the mage will suddenly go all the way to the top.

I think your pessimism is misplaced, Skan.

I know, we've had these kinds of conversations before.

We don't have to pwnX0r any given area in the game to have a use.

I agree.

I'm not asking for most efficient damage or most DPS. I'm asking for maybe third best DPS. Maybe. As it is, mages are beaten (confirmed by numbers and many, many runs) by rogues, warriors (fury), warlocks, and hunters.

It's like the discussion we had where you were concerned that because warlocks can contribute significantly to AoE, that this somehow obsoleted mages.  It wasn't true then and it's not true here.
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Well, mages are obsolete because of the minimal role for AoE in the endgame, but that's a really offtopic discussion.

[Mirajj]

On the other hand...  I worked out the +damage from the feral talents.  It's about 40% beyond what I have now with my restoration/feral build.  I already hit 115 base dps in my cat gear, probably 180 after counting skills.  Given that, feral cats will probably be able to compete with rogues head-on in damage, plus they can back off and turn into backup healers/battle-rezzers when needed.  (they'd have to since bandaging in form is a no-sell)
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Not quite. Mirajj frequently runs about 200-210 dps, and is still easily outdone by the rogues in MC. Rogue DPS is crazyinsane. ;)

[Trien]

Not quite. Mirajj frequently runs about 200-210 dps, and is still easily outdone by the rogues in MC. Rogue DPS is crazyinsane. ;)
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Aye. One of our rogues is consistently 300+ on all the trash mobs in MC. Of course, he's pretty well equipped...

Best I've been able to pull off when I went cat form in my feral gear just for fun (I'm only 11 in feral talents) on them is about 150-160.

[Tal]

Call me crazy, but I always thought that the biggest thing a Mage brings to the table for end game raids was Arcane Subtlety.  This doesn't make nearly as big a difference on the Alliance side where the Paladins can throw Salvation, but horde side this makes a massive difference in how much damage you can throw out.

With Subtlety AND Salvation, a Mage who swaps out to AM on occassion literally CAN'T pull aggro.  You're talking about a 70% reduction in threat.  My AE may be throwing out crit hits for 500+ but carries only slightly more threat than a Hunter's Volley.
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I've done some limited testing on this with a friendly mage and right now it looks like they do NOT stack.

[savaughn]

We're not certain whether subtlety and salvation actually stack.  Given recent experiences with Broodlord Lashlayer, we're leaning in the direction of them not stacking.
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Good point. I actually hadn't tested that.

Just curious.  What real world conditions do you believe will make the difference "far and away" superior?  I can see how you might argue that some conditions might put the mage slightly ahead again, but it's difficult to see how the mage will suddenly go all the way to the top.
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Well, in context I'm talking Mage vs. Druid, not Mage vs., say, Hunter or Rogue which is an entirely different conversation. There are a lot of little things that build up on top of each other here. I'll try and stay focused on the raiding instance as a frame of reference.

Probably the easiest place to go with this is available mana pool. Now, it's possible for a druid to get into the 6K range for mana. It's probably possible to hit 7k, although I've never seen it. A typical lvl 60 seems to be running with around 5.5k mana. A gnome mage skates across 7k in blues. What's more, against a raid level boss your mage can burn through a ruby, citrine, and jade and kick this up to an effective 10k point working mana pool. This is just looking strictly at class based stuff - everybody can toss down a blue pot or whatever, so I'm skipping those. Having 60% of the mana a mage brings to the table is a significant consideration when looking at exactly what you can and cannot throw during a fight.

Another consideration is +damage. Sure, AM only lists out at 192dps, but mine hit for 226. Longer spells get a much better multiplier out of +damage than shorter ones. To match the mage DPS you're talking about stacking Moonfire (instant - 43% modifier) with Wrath (2s base, 57% modifier). Frostbolt carries a better (3s base) 85% modifier.

This brings up the obvious issue of itemization. If you add +damage you're generally losing out on your mana pool, so clearly there's trade offs. That said, take a look at the itemization for Druids. Compare Cenarion to Arcanist. Arcanist has 194 int and every single set piece makes a mage a better nuker. Cenarion has 158 int and only 37 +damage total.

There's other stuff, of course. Like the fact that it's easier to get consistent DPS from longer casting spells than shorter ones because human reflexes and lag put a little gap in between each cast and the issue of Moonfire being a debuff in an environment where those are carefully horded. That kind of thing, but you see where I'm going with this. A balance Druid is going to be a good nuker, but not as good as a Mage for these encounters.

But then, I wouldn't expect a balance Druid to just stand there and nuke. I'd expect them to be flexible and fill in where it's needed. Nuke in Moonkin form, shift and heal if the cloth group he/she is paired with needs it, shift back, etc. I do not agree with the mindset that the flex classes are inferior to the focused classes in the end game. Let me give you an example. Lets say the raid feels it needs a little bit more healing. It could get a restoration druid or a priest to fill that role as a healing specialist. But if group X doesn't need that much healing, it just needs a bit more to cover the gap, a feral or balance druid might be the ideal. I think blizz intended the raids to add a feral druid to the rogue group and a balance druid to the caster DPS group and, while it's still speculation, that looks to me like it will be a good fit that complements skills rather than obsoleting them.

<edit: my AM does NOT hit for 246, it's 226 - bad fingers>

[oldmandennis]

Heh, I was going to bring up the mana and itemization, but you beat me to it.

Also, you still need 4 mages for Domo, no matter how popular Druids get. /cough cough... popular druids. If I had known how easy it would be to get epics as a druid, I would have stuck with it. Reading beta reports, it was the class that appealed to me most. I think it was ghost wolf that made my shaman that much more enjoyable. I don't know if there are any sheep heavy encounters in BWL or planned for Sithilus.

Also also, mages have been hurt a little by the fact that the first two (and a half) 40 man raids have been very big on fire resist. When places come out that don't involve fire elemental gods or fire breathing dragons, fire spec might look a little better. Of course, the aggro might be a problem.

[Tuftears]

Mage CC comes in very handy for Zul'gurub. Druids can hibernate the beasts, but mages can sheep the humanoids. And counterspell is essential for the bosses that can cast healing spells.

[Zarathustra]

In response to Brista,

It's clear that you and I are looking at the Druid from different viewpoints. You have more experience with the so-called "hardcore" guilds where a spot needs to be reserved, while I raid with a smaller guild where it's understood that I've got a spot. From your viewpoint, I can definitely understand questioning whether or not a guild is shooting itself in the foot by bringing a Feral or Balance Druid along.

From where I stand, the Molten Core is not yet an exact science, and things go wrong sometimes. It's times like that where, after I'd been healing an entire fight, I find myself needing to throw a Starfire/Moonfire out to finish off a low enemy before he tears up the cloth. Or when I've been nuking for the whole fight and I see one of the tanks take a nasty crit, quickly slapping a regrowth/rejuv on him to give his priest time to recover.

And yes, you were correct in the assumption that our raids typically have adequate priests, thus shifting things away from the "healing by necessity" role of a Druid. And when we're low on priests, you won't see me nuking at all.

That said, let's move on to the meat.

In the past, a big contribution a Balance Druid could make to difficult encounters was the slowing affects of Hurricane. Now, all Druids have that spell. In addition, Balance Druids cast it at the same strength Restoration or Feral Druids do. The difference is in the mana cost. A Druid that is not relegated to healing will have freedom to cast it, rather than weigh that against two full heals to his assigned patients for triage.

As for the auras... they are lackluster. But given the amount of damage critical hits can land, I could definitely see putting a Feral or Balance Druid in a party of 4 Rogues/Hunters or casters, respectively.

I think it all boils down to a case of having a bonus for the party, while still being able to fill into the other roles if needed. If your group has no need of this and simply wants its Innervate ready and waiting, then you are correct in that a Druid should be Restoration with that Guild.

I would go as far as to say the new auras are better balanced for 5-man enountrs than raid. I've not yet had the chance to go into the Molten Core on the Test Realm, so I can't verify any of this. It's all theorycraft.

What I am truly concerned about is the change Blizzard is making to Curse of Shadows. If its effectiveness for arcane damage is nerfed considerably, Druid nuking in the Core could go out the window.