Meanwhile, In France.

[Doc]

Here, young men try to rule their families and neighbors under a macho code drawn partly from Muslim tradition, partly from the violence and porn in the media. Women submit to men, they say. Good girls, good sisters, cover themselves and stay home. Otherwise they are putes, whores, who can be used and abused even if they say no.

GRIM AS SUCH crimes may be, they’re becoming commonplace in the police ledgers of Paris, Lyons or Toulouse. The scene is almost always the same: the housing projects called cites on the outskirts of France’s major cities. Built by socially progressive governments in the 1960s, they’ve since been taken over by a generation of mostly Arab immigrants—impoverished, cut off from their native lands and culture, ghettoized. Here, young men try to rule their families and neighbors under a macho code drawn partly from Muslim tradition, partly from the violence and porn in the media. Women submit to men, they say. Good girls, good sisters, cover themselves and stay home. Otherwise they are putes, whores, who can be used and abused even if they say no.
Such stories, then, are not just about urban crime and rough neighborhoods. They reflect a core issue of Muslim integration in Europe. Can the young men and women of the cites break out, or will they become ever more isolated, turning inward against themselves? Will they build their lives and relationships on egalitarian values, or on the worst of Islam and the Internet? Young men trapped in a world with no jobs and no future, and violently confused about sex, tend to make women the symbols and the victims of the frustrations around them. Ten years ago, the boys in these hoods burned cars in the streets. Today, they increasingly turn their anger against “their” women in the basements of their apartment blocks.
Recently, a few young women of the cites have begun to fight back. One organization in particular, Ni Putes, Ni Soumises, (roughly, Not Whores, Not Servants), has been organizing protests and speaking out so loudly that the French public and the French government have taken notice—and sympathized. In one grandiose gesture on Bastille Day, July 14, huge photographs of 14 women from the cites, posing as Marianne, the symbol of French liberty, were hung on the columns of the National Assembly looking out on the Place de la Concorde. Will these girls’ fathers and brothers now show them as much respect?
That looks to be a longer fight. “Sexuality has always been a thorny issue in the quartiers ,” says Safia Lebdi, 29, who is one of the first members of Ni Putes, Ni Soumises, and could be a poster girl for confident, in-your-face sexuality. The other day she was wearing a pink see-through top, low-rise cargo pants and soft, beaded slippers. Born into the cite outside Clermont-Ferrand, where Michelin makes tires, she knows what she’s talking about when she says that “feminist thinking never reached the ghettos.” Girls, for their own protection, have taken to wearing loose-fitting track suits or veils over their hair. “They’re locked up in a world where their fathers have failed to break out of unemployment, where they have failed at finishing school or finding a job,” says a young woman activist with another group, Female Voices, Rebel Voices. Lacking hope or the opportunity for a better life, she adds, “all the men have left is their virility.” And some have savage ways of asserting it.
Late last year, two events galvanized the women of the cites. A young woman named Samira Bellil published a book, “In Gang-Rape Hell,” recounting her experiences in the ghetto, including twice being subjected to the tournante —men taking turns using her, one after another. She urged her “sisters in suffering” to speak out before they lost all self-esteem. Then reports hit the press about another —incident even more gruesome than those before it. A 17-year-old woman named Sohane told off an old boyfriend, and he burned her alive.
So it was, earlier this year, that the eight young women of Ni Putes, Ni Soumises came together and began touring France to publicize their plight. They weren’t sure what they were doing or where they were going. But they knew they were fed up. “We were f—-ing scared,” says Lebdi. “We were heading for the unknown.”
Unknown then, perhaps, but no longer. Today, all of France knows of them and their cause. They have been received in Paris by Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin. The government has promised that police stations would be more receptive to women in distress filing complaints, and that housing should be provided for women, whom these activists and the government agree, need rescuing from severe abuse. So far some 50 women have moved into such apartments, and Ni Putes, Ni Soumises gets a steady stream of abused and battered girls. “It takes time to make change happen,” says Lebdi, “but we don’t have time. Every single situation we deal with is an emergency and often even a matter of life and death.”
The problem is that to help the women of the cites in the long run, you have to help the men—not only to find jobs and education, but to learn to live in Western societies. And precious little has been done about that.

Taken from a French Webzine.

Also, more on it here. http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/ar...004544.php

And lots of other places if you type "Ni Putes, Ni Soumises" in to Google.

Some thoughts. France is giving people welfare handouts for being "socially handicapped." Those unemployed men living in the poor sections, they can't seem to keep a job because they beat up and torment women in the workplace. They are getting a check every month allowing them to live with a free meal ticket... Because they can not keep a job because of their radical views and actions... And with no job, they suddenly have even more free time... Which leads to even more rape and crime. Uh...

Who came up with that brilliant idea? The words "Social Darwinism" come to mind.

The scary blind eye so many are turning toward this behaviour. Not enough is being done about it. And it is happening here America too. Which bothers me on some deep fundamental level that I can't explain.

With all of the trends on "being cool" and young men handing over a woman to a crowd of friends for a gang rape in one social clique, how long before other social cliques pick up on it? I mean... What if something like this became "the in thang" to do for bored teenagers sick of hanging out at the mall.

What the Hell is wrong with those people?

And what is wrong with the women? They want to dress like whores, but don't want to be called whores... I am not reaching out and saying they deserve it. No woman ever deserves it. That's not the case here. For the women that have only suffered vocal abuse, well, the easy way to avoid that is, don't dress like a whore. I never understood the slutty Paris Hilton trailer waif look and why women feel the need to look like that.

I have stated it before here at the Lounge... I do not understand the fundie middle eastern mindset. Like that post a while back about a woman that was gang raped for punishment. And now, gang rape for kicks and giggles.

WTF is wrong with these people?

[Guest]

Remember when it used to be said that black guys liked to rape white women as a matter of fact?





Most stories are partly true and most stories are only half the story.

[Doc]

Remember when it used to be said that black guys liked to rape white women as a matter of fact?
Most stories are partly true and most stories are only half the story.
[right][snapback]90606[/snapback][/right]

Ghost, it is a well documented and established fact that Muslim extremists use rape as a form of punishment.

It's not rumour or bad press. It's truth.

[Occhidiangela]

Such stories, then, are not just about urban crime and rough neighborhoods. They reflect a core issue of Muslim integration in Europe[right][snapback]90599[/snapback][/right]

The core oxymoron and policy screw up for about two decades. The collossal stupidity of setting up a Muslim client state in Bosnia was related to the blinders on "tolerance" of the infestation of Europe with the continuing stream of Muslim immigrants.

There is no valid cultural reason to integrate Muslims into Europe, as there is no cultural quid pro quo. They are, except in the case of "casual Muslims" like the "casual Christians" of Europe, culturally incompatible with modern European, secular, enlightenment, post WW II multi cultural societal standards and norms.

A Muslim looks at multiculturalism as his thin end of the wedge in forcing his way into an alien society, and takes a stance at the meeting of the cultural boundary of "what's mine is fixed, what is yours is negotiable." It is the same stunt the Soviets and International Communists were infamous for pulling for years.

Multiculturalism is not exercised in Muslim lands, at least, not multiculturalism as envisioned and practiced by the progressive and very modern European model. Those who argue that Islam tolerates other religions etc conveniently forget that they tolerate them, and officially treat them as second class citizens. That is NOT the European model, officially nor in the letter of the law.

This cultural mismatch is a festering sore that will only get worse unless Muslim immigration into Europe is curtailed or stopped as a matter of pan European policy. This issue was a matter of serious security and policy concern in the early 90's, in the mid 90's. It informed NATO policy on projects I worked on for three years. For reasons of moral cowardice, in my opinion, it was wished away by European governments, and to a certain extent by the American governments with whom Europe has profound security and economic relationships.

Anything you do, any policy you embark on, carries risk -- to include a decision to do nothing. Ostriches get buggered if they leave their heads in the sand for too long.

Occhi

[Doc]

Occhi, they did one better than integrating Muslims in to Europe. They pay them to live there for being "socially handicapped" which is why so many are moving there in the first place. Poverty in Europe is pretty damn good compared to poverty where many of them come from. Free housing, free medical care, a monthly stipend, working public transportation, etc. Heck of a lot better than being stranded out in the desert.

The whole thing disgusts me.

Move to Europe and get a free ride for being socially and culturally handicapped. WTF? Who would pass up that good of a deal?

Whose bright idea was this? And now Europe is complaining about crime going up in large cities, the number of gang rapes is skyrocketing, and crimes against women are at an all time high. Even non Muslim women are victims... It's not safe to go in to the Muslim quarters. They allow the problem to exist, created the conditions for the problem to fester, and now they complain that the problem exists.

JUST STOP LETTING THEM LIVE THERE FOR FREE. Let them starve if they can't get work because of how they treat women and non Muslims.

[Guest]

And its well documented that some black hoodlums raped some white women.


Take note your term "extremists" would imply a minority.





That said I am no fan of Islam; I think its is nothing more stone worship with hints of gencide. However all the Muslims I have personally met and talked to directly online are wonderfully reasonable people.

Also look at some of the stories(verified) of Russian atrocities on Chechan civilians before you completely blame Islam for the deravity of given individuals.

[Doc]

And its well documented that some black hoodlums raped some white women.
Take note your term "extremists" would imply a minority.
That said I am no fan of Islam; I think its is nothing more stone worship with hints of gencide. However all the Muslims I have personally met and talked to directly online are wonderfully reasonable people.

Also look at some of the stories(verified) of Russian atrocities on Chechan civilians before you completely blame Islam for the deravity of given individuals.
[right][snapback]90616[/snapback][/right]

I agree. Muslim extremists are the ones that deserve the finger pointing. Most Muslims are just good upright folk.

And in reply to your black vs white banter, there are plenty of white men who raped black women. Humans rape. It's not always about skin colour. Some times it is. In this case, it's more about culture. In particular, these assholes believe that rape and humiliation is fitting punishment for any woman that they think is a whore or does not meet their standards.

Russians? Well, that's another thread. This is about problems in Europe. In particular, France. Women, both European and Muslim, are being ambushed and gang raped for kicks and giggles.

Oh. And on a slightly related note, I have also read a little bit about Canada starting to have this problem as well.

[Guest]

Thank you Mr Obvious.

And in reply to your black vs white banter, there are plenty of white men who raped black women. Humans rape. It's not always about skin colour. Some times it is. In this case, it's more about culture. In particular, these assholes believe that rape and humiliation is fitting punishment for any woman that they think is a whore or does not meet their standards.
[right][snapback]90617[/snapback][/right]

Seriously just how big is your head?

I cant tell if your problem is that, you are too clueless to to get other peoples point(in this case that its easy make generalisations about groups of people you arent familier with) or if its that you think were all 3rd graders who dont understand what we wrote ourselves.



Anyway get the #$%^ over yourself. Either take your insight to a higher level or just stop.

[Doc]

Thank you Mr Obvious.
Seriously just how big is your head?

I cant tell if your problem is that, you are too clueless to to get other peoples point(in this case that its easy make generalisations about groups of people you arent familier with) or if its that you think were all 3rd graders who dont understand what we wrote ourselves.
Anyway get the #$%^ over yourself. Either take your insight to a higher level or just stop.
[right][snapback]90619[/snapback][/right]

Hey, you tried to light a match under the black and white issue. And I made sure that little fire was put out to stay on the issue.

[Guest]

Wrong.

I showed that anyone can pick on a minority they arent familer with and make generalisations.

Its a common rhetorical method to compare a new situation to something the audence is familier with.
Basically I gues no one is allowed to even look sideways at a a black guy - because your black, but its opn season on other minorities?




I find your frequent rants about how you are/were a black man fighting the oppresive system a bit bufoonish, but I mostly let it go because thats how you define yourself it seems.
But its some what offensive to the notion of high discourse to see YOU doing the same thing, that you gripe about others doing.

[Doc]

Wrong.

I showed that anyone can pick on a minority they arent familer with and make generalisations.

Its a common rhetorical method to compare a new situation to something the audence is familier with.
Basically I gues no one is allowed to even look sideways at a a black guy - because your black, but its opn season on other minorities?
I find your frequent rants about how you are/were a black man fighting the oppresive system a bit bufoonish, but I mostly let it go because thats how you define yourself it seems.
But its some what offensive to the notion of high discourse to see YOU doing the same thing, that you gripe about others doing.
[right][snapback]90622[/snapback][/right]

Actually, I am not black. I am a lovely shade of olive. I am not white either. So I get it from both sides thank you very much. I have taken crap from both black and white supremacists about me not being white/dark enough to be fit for either side.

Being racially mixed is a bitch. I find my self trying to make peace with both sides.

Please, be more careful. I have tried to be civil here, but that was awfully close to being offensive. Really, you shouldn't go there.

Edit.

To make it perfectly clear, I am a little bit of everything I have found. I am classified technically as a Hispanic Native American. But I have found that I have black roots, white roots, some Asian, and only God knows what else. I can't point the finger at nobody and say "I hate you and your race!" Because it would be hating on my own person. However, the white part of me is really pissed at the dark parts of me, because that white part wasn't allowed to sit at the lunch counter or drink from the white water fountains and instead had to go hang out with the brown skinned folks. I think he feels betrayed.

Please, leave my own race out of it. That is the one area I get really touchy about. I can make jokes about it and such... But please, don't cross the line here. That's uncool.

[Guest]

I could really care less what you are.


You complain about people generalising when it affects you and then you go and do it about others.


Get it?


Probably not - oh well.

[Doc]

I could really care less what you are.
You complain about people generalising when it affects you and then you go and do it about others.
Get it?
Probably not - oh well.
[right][snapback]90627[/snapback][/right]

You started with the generalisations... Not me. What the fark are you talking about?

I posted a news article based on crime reports and social observations.

I don't get it, and I don't think anybody else reading this thread gets it either, coming from you.

[jahcs]

Remember when it used to be said that black guys liked to rape white women as a matter of fact?
Most stories are partly true and most stories are only half the story.
[right][snapback]90606[/snapback][/right]

Perhaps using a less inflamatory statement or avoiding examples and saying what is meant would help avoid the vitriol that has followed.

Most news stories will have spin put on it and just enough research done to prove the point that was sought from the beginning. Once that goal is reached most reporters rarely dig any deeper.

And a website called jihadwatch.com may not be the most unbiased source of information out there ;)

[Doc]

Perhaps using a less inflamatory statement or avoiding examples and saying what is meant would help avoid the vitriol that has followed.

Most news stories will have spin put on it and just enough research done to prove the point that was sought from the beginning.  Once that goal is reached most reporters rarely dig any deeper.

And a website called jihadwatch.com may not be the most unbiased source of information out there ;)
[right][snapback]90629[/snapback][/right]

I mentioned the group so other people can Google. And the original article came from a French webzine.

Also, I believe the jihadwatch.com site was started by Muslims to keep track of their extremist counterparts. Don't remember for sure, but have checked it out once or twice before.

[Swiss Mercenary]

On a more progressive note, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4236762.stm

Somebody piped up, and people started realising that if you make exceptions for the Christians and the Jews, you either have to make exceptions for the Muslims... Or make exceptions for nobody.

Two and a half thumbs up.

[Doc]

Here is a Wiki about the women's group in question. Looks like some links as well.

It's not jihad related. Is that bette? :)

[Guest]

The vitrol was the point.

I said something no more offensive than him(actually I didnt say it as fact the way he did I said what people used to say) - the only difference is mine an example of historic hokum where his example is one hes preaching.

[Any1]

Thank you Mr Obvious.
Seriously just how big is your head?

I cant tell if your problem is that, you are too clueless to to get other peoples point(in this case that its easy make generalisations about groups of people you arent familier with) or if its that you think were all 3rd graders who dont understand what we wrote ourselves.
Anyway get the #$%^ over yourself. Either take your insight to a higher level or just stop.
[right][snapback]90619[/snapback][/right]

Ghostiger,

I don't know if it's Doc in particular, or you're just mad at the world? The tone of your response to Doc's comment is way out of line. I'm neither your friends or Docs, just a third party observer. Even if you disagree with someone's opinion you hurt your own cause by going non-linear.

As far Muslim ghettos in France go, I don't think anything goes on there tht doesn't happen in every other ghetto the world over. In the absence of the rule of law, young men form themselves into gangs and conduct themselves according to their own set of rules. Unfortunately, Islam has a long history of treating women as second class citizens (if not chattel), which certainly doesn't help in this matter.

[Occhidiangela]

The vitrol was the point.

I said something no more offensive than him(actually I didnt say it as fact the way he did I said what people used to say) - the only difference is mine an example of historic hokum where his example is one hes preaching.
[right][snapback]90633[/snapback][/right]

Doc

Ghostiger

Now that the mutual scab picking has gone on long enough, please take the rest of your interpersonal argument to email or PM. Pretty please. With whipped cream and sugar on top. :rolleyes:

Occhi