Moonkin = OOMKin

[TheWesson]

I've been browsing the WoW forums and the general take of Druids on the new Moonkin form (on the test servers) seems to be: What is it for? and, I'm always out of mana!

The Moonkin form is (going to be) the end talent in the Druid Balance tree in 1.08. It offers +360% armor and +3% spell crit rate. Downsides: Can only cast balance spells (Hurricane, Starfire, Wrath, Roots, Thorns, Moonfire.) Cannot cast healing spells (of course); cannot use items or potions or drink; weapons don't proc (though they are still used in melee.)

** "What is it for?" -- Druids still can't go toe-to-toe with Warriors and Rogues; you're still better off rooting and casting from a distance. (Casting Moonfire resets your weapon swing as it always has.) Moonkin form vs casters is pointless suicide, naturally.

** "I'm always out of mana!" -- Shifting forms costs a high percentage of the Druid's mana. Druid mana regeneration (Spirit bonus) is lower than other classes anyhow -- 1 spirit = 1/5 mana regen per tick, not 1/4. Innervate is of course unavailable to the Moonkin. And, the Moonkin can't drink. So you'd shift out to heal and drink, and shift back to Moonkin taking a large chunk of your mana, which you'd either sit around waiting to regen, or start your next fight at a disadvantage.

Anyhow, I'm wondering if the idea of an armored caster is a dud. The advantage of being a caster is to strike enemies from range; being at melee range is a problem not only due to getting hurt but also due to spells being interrupted. To avoid interruption, Druids have Barkskin, which stops spell interrupts due to damage but it increases casting time by 1 sec and swing time by 20%. (They can do this for 15 seconds every fight since Barkskin has 1-min cooldown.)

So to go toe-to-toe in melee with Moonkin, you'd basically be spamming Moonfire ...?? or Barkskin + Hurricane + Moonfire? Your DPS with Starfire or Wrath would be terrible (in melee) due either to being interrupted or to the slowness effect of Barkskin.

The only use I see for Moonkin, really, is handling multiple melee opponents that aren't overpoweringly strong - or similar situation where Roots + casting from a distance in caster-form is impossible to execute.

The question is, is Moonkin better than a Bear or Dire Bear for multiple opponents? Better DPS than Bear? Vs 3+ melee opponents, spam Moonfire on rotation until nearly OOM, then Barkskin, caster form, heal, bearform until mana comes back???

<shrug> Anyhow, the viability of Moonkin form seems rather situational at best. Haven't found any Druid posts which say like so: "Moonkin form ROCKS for X!!"

Any Lurkers been on the test servers with a 40+ Druid and have anything to say about Moonkin?

Am I missing something here? What's the Moonkin scenario? Going toe-to-toe melee and whacking the enemy with a mace and getting a damage boost from casting a Moonfire every few seconds (free when Omen of Clarity procs)?

[Quark]

Quick note: we'll have a few more tweaks for the Moonkin form before it goes live (ie: lowered mana cost for the shapeshift and being able to eat/drink/trinket/etc).

That is all (for now).

[TheWesson]

Quick note: we'll have a few more tweaks for the Moonkin form before it goes live (ie: lowered mana cost for the shapeshift and being able to eat/drink/trinket/etc).

That is all (for now).
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Heh I found that thread just now ... the Realms (Test) Forum is handy.

Another Moonkin user actually said something positive on another thread in there: that the Moonkin can melee pretty well with a mace and Improved Thorns and zapping Moonfire mainly when OOC procs -- basically just keeping the Moonfire dot ticking. That was his route to success dueling warriors. Thorns will be nasty for catform and rogue-type attackers too I'm sure. I recall reading Thorns will now max out at about 40 damage returned.

Roots + bandage should work fairly well too.

I suppose Moonkins should now regard themselves as primarily melee with some spell support, somewhat like Paladins. You'd want Str/Spi gear perhaps, and focus less on Int.

[savaughn]

** "What is it for?" -- Druids still can't go toe-to-toe with Warriors and Rogues; you're still better off rooting and casting from a distance.&nbsp; (Casting Moonfire resets your weapon swing as it always has.)&nbsp; Moonkin form vs casters is pointless suicide, naturally.

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The only use I see for Moonkin, really, is handling multiple melee opponents that aren't overpoweringly strong - or similar situation where Roots + casting from a distance in caster-form is impossible to execute.

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Am I missing something here? What's the Moonkin scenario? Going toe-to-toe melee and whacking the enemy with a mace and getting a damage boost from casting a Moonfire every few seconds (free when Omen of Clarity procs)?
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The potential changes to Moonkin aside, I can't say I ever really considered Moonkin for the scenarios you're listing. PvP and solo PvE have better builds, certainly. The principle advantage of Moonkin form is the 3% bonus crit to the party - and that spells raid.

I honestly hadn't even considered Moonkin form as a PvP build before. Might be possible but my Tauren's going balance for raiding, not PvP. Moonkin was built explicitly as an answer to the question: why should I take a balance druid in my raid. A lot of guilds are requiring explicit builds for the end game raiding content and previously if you were a druid without innervate, you weren't getting into the raid. Moonkin form (and leader of the pack, for that matter) are an attempt to curb this behavior.

[MongoJerry]

The potential changes to Moonkin aside, I can't say I ever really considered Moonkin for the scenarios you're listing.&nbsp; PvP and solo PvE have better builds, certainly.&nbsp; The principle advantage of Moonkin form is the 3% bonus crit to the party - and that spells raid.

Heh, that's funny, because the first thing I thought of was, "They couldn't come up with something new for druids, so they gave them shadowform for PvP." Shadow priests are always coughing and wheezing for mana, too, and the fact that they're going to let moonkin form druids be able to eat, drink, and trinket while in form definitely points to Blizzard making moonkin form exactly like a shadowform priest.

A shadow priest who can also root people. Sounds kind of scary.

[TheWesson]

Heh, that's funny, because the first thing I thought of was, "They couldn't come up with something new for druids, so they gave them shadowform for PvP."&nbsp; Shadow priests are always coughing and wheezing for mana, too, and the fact that they're going to let moonkin form druids be able to eat, drink, and trinket while in form definitely points to Blizzard making moonkin form exactly like a shadowform priest.

A shadow priest who can also root people.&nbsp; Sounds kind of scary.
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Well, a lot like a shadow priest, except better armor, different crowd control, and can't dump mana into dmg as fast.

Just as I said that, the words "Moonfire spam" popped into my head. Don't know how MF-spam compares to shadow-priest dps, but one would think the usual Moonkin MF-spamming would be OOM before a warrior was dead. Haven't done the numbers but anecdotes confirm that point of view.

However, from browsing the WoW forums, it seems that at least one balance druid with lots of +spellpower gear has made a real success out of MF-spam even in 1.7, despite the apparent ridiculousness of it. I wonder if that's possible because the instant part of Moonfire gets a large part of the +spellpower dmg. <browse browse> Ok, the direct damage part of Moonfire gets 1.5/3.5 (=42%) of +spellpower dmg like any other instant.

Can't think of any other instant no-cooldown DD spell right now ... so anyhow, with lots of +spelldmg the fact that you're wasting part of the damage becomes irrelevant and the important thing is that you're dumping 42% of your +spelldmg every 1.5 seconds.

This also makes me wonder if Blizzard thought ahead and reduced +spelldam by rank of the spell. Why not use a lower-rank Moonfire to dump your 42% of +spelldam ... you'd want to do this to conserve mana around the time that your 42% +spelldmg bonus was significantly greater than moonfire base dmg.

edit: Oh nm, spell rank does affect +spelldam ... to some extent.

So yeah at some point (+500 spelldam?) a Balance druid will outnuke a Shadow priest I expect, simply because they can deliver a significant fraction of their bonus every 1.5 seconds.

[Brista]

Very interesting post, some nits though

I wonder if that's possible because the instant part of Moonfire gets a large part of the +spellpower dmg.

The dd part gets ALL of the + spellpower damage

Can't think of any other instant no-cooldown DD spell right now

Shadowburn (Warlock) but it takes shards

... so anyhow, with lots of +spelldmg the fact that you're wasting part of the damage becomes irrelevant and the important thing is that you're dumping 42% of your +spelldmg every 1.5 seconds.

Every 1.0 seconds no? Global cooldown is 1 second

This also makes me wonder if Blizzard thought ahead and reduced +spelldam by rank of the spell.&nbsp; Why not use a lower-rank Moonfire to dump your 42% of +spelldam ... you'd want to do this to conserve mana around the time that your 42% +spelldmg bonus was significantly greater than moonfire base dmg.

edit:&nbsp; Oh nm, spell rank does affect +spelldam ... to some extent.

I thought that it didn't. Where did you get this information from? My understanding was that if you were adding 42% of +100 damage then it's 42 regardless of rank or class, just as a +5 scope is +5 on any gun

So yeah at some point (+500 spelldam?) a Balance druid will outnuke a Shadow priest I expect, simply because they can deliver a significant fraction of their bonus every 1.5 seconds.

Yes. Not just that but they can do it while running too.

[TheWesson]

Very interesting post, some nits though
The dd part gets ALL of the + spellpower damage
Shadowburn (Warlock) but it takes shards
Every 1.0 seconds no? Global cooldown is 1 second
I thought that it didn't. Where did you get this information from? My understanding was that if you were adding 42% of +100 damage then it's 42 regardless of rank or class, just as a +5 scope is +5 on any gun
Yes. Not just that but they can do it while running too.
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Hi, thanks for the nits.

Global cooldown is 1.0 second? Wasn't sure.

I'll mark the 42% vs 100% on the DD portion as debated. We need somebody like Jarulf to do all the numbers work for us (by tracing the machine code), that would be so handy! 42% makes more sense to me. Alas, I do not have enough +dam on my Druid to conduct this experiment. Has someone first-hand experience?

if Moonfire gets 100% +dam on the DD part my reaction is "o.o.o!"

Got many of the numbers from this post (see wiz_ard's reply)
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topi...&replies=3

Maybe there's a site where the numbers work is all organized for us? Suggestions?

Lower rank spells getting +dam at a lower rate ... another rumor/anecdote fished up by Google. Makes sense though. Well I'm going to get my priest (who has a lot of +spell) to jump off a building and heal with rank 1 Renew, see if it applies. It ought to -- seems to me Blizzard has been very careful about plugging anything remotely exploitable. So far I've found the game "over balanced" if anything.

Yah one of the very few things I've found to be remotely exploitable is the fact that you can put any level enchant on any item of the correct type. +7 Stamina on Ragged Cloth Footwraps for your twinked lvl 3 char, anyone? Oddly, armor kits ARE regulated.

[MongoJerry]

Lower rank spells getting +dam at a lower rate ... another rumor/anecdote fished up by Google.&nbsp; Makes sense though.&nbsp; Well I'm going to get my priest (who has a lot of +spell) to jump off a building and heal with rank 1 Renew, see if it applies.&nbsp; It ought to -- seems to me Blizzard has been very careful about plugging anything remotely exploitable.&nbsp; So far I've found the game "over balanced" if anything.

This behavior can vary by spell if Blizzard intends it, so numbers would need to be crunched for each spell. However, I can say that rank 1 Flash Heal gets the same benefit from +healing gear as the highest rank of Flash Heal. Since I have over +550 healing, I've dabbled in alternating the use of rank 1 Flash Heal and the higher rank of Flash Heal, depending on circumstances.

Yah one of the very few things I've found to be remotely exploitable is the fact that you can put any level enchant on any item of the correct type.&nbsp; +7 Stamina on Ragged Cloth Footwraps for your twinked lvl 3 char, anyone?&nbsp; Oddly, armor kits ARE regulated.

Some minor limitations have been put in place, though. I have had the experience of trying to enchant some low level item with a high level enchant and getting an error message saying something like, "Item level not high enough." However, since I know a lot of people twink their alts with weapons enchanted with fiery enchant, the requirements must not be very limiting.

[TheWesson]

Counter nit:

nit #1:
Here's a Blue post saying global cooldown is 1.5 sec.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...ugs&T=55845&P=2
see bottom of page

Copying it here since posts in Blizzard forums tend to vanish:

August 23 2005 by "Seismics"&nbsp; (Blizzard poster)

Both Bane and Shadow Bolt are working fine.

The global cooldown timer is 1.5secs. This is the gray shade that envelops all spells/skills for a short duration. Immolate default casting time is 2secs. Cast Immolate and notice the global cooldown timer ends about a split second (0.5secs) before Immolate completes casting. Now do the same with a Bane Warlock and you'll find that the global cooldown is exactly the same as the casting time for Immolate (1.5secs).

The same method can be used to test Shadow Bolt - 3secs is twice as long as the 1.5sec global cooldown timer. Cast Shadow Bolt once and place your mouse cursor over the middle of the casting bar. Now cast Shadow Bolt again and notice the casting time progress bar hits your mouse cursor at the same time the global cooldown ends. This effectively means that Shadow Bolts casting time is twice the amount of the global cooldown or 3secs. Now do the same with a Bane Warlock and you'll notice the casting time progress bar crosses over the mouse cursor meaning Shadow Bolt is now casting faster than the global cooldown (0.5 faster to be exact).

All this can be tested and found in a 0 lag environment. In lagged situations the results will vary. You'll notice all spells start a bit after you actually press the button to cast them. This is not something that only affects Warlocks. This lag affects all players all spells with a similar latency to the server. This lag can be 0.25 to 0.5secs or 250 to 500ms latency to the server. To test if you're experiencing this lag use the following rule: Your casting bar shows after your global cooldown has started.

I'm guessing that certain actions which are on auto (melee? wand firing?) can occur more often than once per 1.5 sec. Hopefully they can, a 1.4 speed wand is supposed to fire every 1.4 seconds, right?

nit #2:
Shadowburn can't be spammed if your definition of spammable is "instant" and "no cooldown". (Thottbot seems to be saying a 15 sec cooldown.) So is Moonfire unique in being spammable single-target DD?

...

Just FYI here is the game designer post (no longer avail thru Blizzard forums as far as I can tell, so I wanted to copy it here from the IGN forums post where it was included verbatim):

There is some confusion about how these effects work and how effective they are, so I wanted to explain what they do.

When an item has the effect "Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 20", the damage dealt or hit points healed by one of your spells will be increased by a fixed amount up to 20. The actual amount that the spell is increased by is not determined randomly, but by which spell you are casting. You are not receiving a random bonus value between 1 and 20 whenever you cast a spell. Some random items, such as those with the property "of Shadow Wrath", indicate that they provide "+X Shadow Spell Damage". The actual amount of the bonus is again determined by the spell being cast. There are a few items that do provide a random bonus, such as Dreamweave Gloves, but their effect notes the randomness by stating that item's bonus as "up to 1 to 19." Once again, the bonus received could be reduced depending on the spell being cast.

Spells with longer casting times such as Fireball and Greater Heal will receive the full bonus listed every time they cast the spell. Spells with instant or short cast times receive a fraction of the bonus listed. As an example of such a spell, Flash Heal (Rank 7) only receives approximately 43% of the item bonus. Talents or other effects that might change the casting time of the spell will not change the bonus; the amount received is a property of the spell being cast.

Most long duration Damage and Heal over time spells have the bonus divided amongst every tick. So Renew, which lasts 15 seconds and heals an amount every 3 seconds, has 20% of the bonus applied each tick. In a similar fashion, channeled spells also have the item bonus divided amongst every tick of the spell's duration.

Lower level spells receive a greatly reduced benefit from these effects.

These effects all stack. So if a Mage is wearing 3 items that provide up to +20 Fire damage, you will have a combined +60 to Fire damage. This means every high level Fireball cast will inflict an extra 60 damage to the target.

These bonuses are also added to the effect of the spell before the 50% bonus from a critical spell hit is applied.

Note that there is currently a bug in the game that affects heals over time such as Renew and Rejuvenation. The +healing items worn by the caster are only providing the appropriate healing bonus if the caster is also the target of the spell. Direct heals such as Greater Heal work fine, and the +Healing bonuses are being appropriately applied. Damage over time spells are also working properly. We're working to fix this bug, but currently I can not provide any kind of ETA on the fix.

Daelo
Game Designer