So You Wanna Raid...

[Mirajj]

First, let's define "raiding". A lot of people use it to mean a lot of different things. So, for my purposes here it means anything requiring 20 people or more. Places like Onyxia, Zul'Gurub and Molten Core.

~From 55 Onward...~

So while you were levelling up your toon, you heard about Molten Core from guildies, or what a rush it is to kill Onyxia and you want to help. This is good. As we want you, too. But what needs to be done before you can join in the fray? Several things must be done first, in my opinion.

To fight with Onyxia, there is a long chain of quests that starts with this quest. You can and should start this when you can, at level 48. It is good experience, in more ways than one.

You will be in BRD a lot, so while you are there, be sure to pick up and complete this quest. The quest is a short detour on the way to the last fight in BRD, and it will attune you to Molten Core, so that you can enter it. It's available at level 55.

The only other raiding attunement currently in the game is needed for Blackwing Lair. This is a very easy attunement, and is done through this quest.

So, now that you are all attuned and able to enter the "big kids" playgrounds, you are set to go, right! Not quite.

There are several 'training grounds' that you should visit first, and several times each. Blackrock Depths (BRD), Scholomance (Scholo), all 3 wings of Dire Maul (DM East, West, and North), both sides of Stratholme (Baron/UD Strath, Scarlet Strath) and Lower/Upper Blackrock Spire (L/UBRS).

Most of them will need at least 2 trips in a 5 man party, just for quests. All of these can also be done in a 10 man party, and should be. Two of them (LBRS and UBRS) can also be done in a 15 man party, and should be. LBRS you will be 5manning for quests, UBRS you go with at least 9 other people.

That is a lot of time invested, which is why you start around 55. Instances have a lot to offer and teach, and it's stuff you need and need to know before raiding.

Running these places several times each with friends, guildies (usually one and the same, I know) and PickUp Groups (I am a firm believer that everyone should run with at least a couple of PUG's) will teach you a lot you didn't know about your class. You will pick up ideas and see previously unused abilities in a new light. Most importantly, you will learn what you can do "When Bad Things Happen". The knowledge you acquire doing this may prevent a wipe sometime in the future. This is why I personally think that people should run with PUG's. Their goal will almost always be accomplished, but the path can be quite well-littered with "When Bad Things Happen" situations. These are things you need to be prepared for and have experienced...before you go raiding.

So you are running these places, moving your exp bar rapidly towards 60 and gaining valuable insight into your toons abilities. There is also another benfit to all this time "pre-raiding". Loot, and gearing up. There, I've said the evil words. Loot. Gear.

Let's be honest here. Gear helps, and makes a difference. You can be the greatest player in the game, but if you are 'naked' and using a 2dps weapon, the worst player in the game with some armor and a 50dps weapon will walk all over you, every time. So gear helps. Skill plays a big part, but if you've put in the time to get the gear and have the skill, you'll be a very welcome addition to the team. You may be lucky and find what you are looking for the first time, or it may take 62 runs. Ask around if you aren't sure where or what to look for. Most of what you want will be in those aforementioned instances. Sadly, unless you are a hunter, your blue 'class set' isn't all that good. Ask around, folks are always happy to talk gear. Generally, most are even happy to help you try and get it.

So now you are attuned and keyed. All the instances you've run have netted you a good idea of teamwork and where you fit in the team, in addition to a couple of tricks just "in case". You've been lucky with drops, and have about half of the gear you have on your "I want this" list. If you aren't 60, you are pretty close, within two levels.

You are now what most people would consider ready to start raiding with the "big kids".

If you wait until you are level 60 to start this stuff, you are, as you can see, way behind the curve, and it'll take a lot of work to catch up.

~So You've Gotten Your Invite...~
Take a Deep Breath...and hope you never see one. ;)

Before you set foot into a raid instance, there are some things you need to know. Raid basics, if you will, or raid etiquette/discipline.

-There is a main tank (MT) and a main assist (MA). Almost always, the MA's target is the first one to be the focus of the raids focus fire. There are several ways of making sure you are on the right target. Macro's and the MT/MA boxes from CTRA are a couple of them. Find which one works for you, and use it.

-DPS calls. On most of the mobs you will wait until the MA has built enough aggro to hold the mob against the raid's damage, and 'calls' for DPS on his target to begin. Then and only then will you 'open fire', and start slow. If the mob gets loose or the MA calls DPS off, stop all aggro generating activity immediately. Wait until the DPS is called on again before resuming attacking. This is essential, and not hard. Messing up repeatedly here is more likely than anything else to get you uninvited. Some mobs, however, you start DPS on right away. Ask your class leader.

-On that note...if you haven't learned how to manage your aggro, do not pass the instance gate. Return to the 'training grounds' until you can. The raid mobs can flatten a cloth squishy in one hit, two if they are feeling generous. One of them rampaging through the healers can very quickly turn a smooth running raid into a "When Bad Things Happened" story. However, accidents do happen, and you won't be crucified for them. If you pull aggro and aren't dead, your job is to get the mob/aggro back where it belongs, on the mobs assigned tank.

-Join your class channel (ask if unsure) and find out who your class leader is. That person will be able to answer your questions. They are also the first person you talk to if you have a problem. If they can't solve it, they'll move it up the ladder and tell you who to talk to. Do not go over your class leader's head unless the problem is with the class leader themself. The people higher up are very busy keeping the raid moving smoothly, and the last thing they need is to deal with complaints. This is part of what the class leader is there for in the first place.

-There Is a Time and A Place...This is a bit dicey, but unless something threatens the stability of the raid, it doesn't really belong in /ra. /ra should be for loot and strategy discussions only. Complaints should be in /w to your class leader, and non-raid related comentary in /ga or /g. There is really no need to clog /ra. It should be used for info that everyone in the raid needs to know, only.

-The Raid Leader. The Big Cheese. The Head Honcho. If you were at work, this would be your boss. What he says goes. Period. Final answer. End of story. If you have a problem with his decisions, take it up with your class leader, or one of your Guild representatives on the Avarice Council. They will bring the matter up in an appropriate manner at an appropriate time, and keep you informed of the issues status. If you are so bothered or upset by the issue that you feel it must be dealt with then and there, please leave the raid. Then contact the Council. Do not bother the Raid Leader during the raid with complaints. Violate this, and you may find yourself uninvited.

-Know Your Role - Sadly, Blizzard, while making a fine game, has left very little room in end game raiding for the variant style of play that the constituent Guilds of Avarice are known for. So while you may want to play your muscle mage, please don't be shocked, surprised, offended, upset or argumentative if your class leader or Raid Leader asks you to assume a more traditional "Blizzard defined" role.

-Raiding is boring. No, really. I'm not lying. Well, it's not boring, but it is long periods of inactivity interspersed with brief flurries of frenetic activity where you play at the top of your game. It can be an exciting, energetic challenge, or it can be the height of boredom. Please come to the raid expecting this aspect of raiding. On a raid, you will come along, be asked to stand around waiting, told what to do when, then expected to do it with a high level of competency. If this doesn't appeal to you, the big end game raids aren't really for you then, and you may wish to reconsider your end game goals.

-During those stand around periods, you can pass the time chattering if you want, but please don't do it in /ra anymore. Chatter in /ga, /g or /w. But leave /ra for important raid related announcements and questions. Chatter away, but pay close attention to /ra in case a class leader or Raid Leader has a question for you, such as "Which Druid has the most AC in bear form?" In this vein, keep all chatter off of TeamSpeak when strategies are trying to be discussed.

-"That's not a knife. This is a knife!" - Compounding the "I only stand around and wait" complaint is its cousin, "When I fight, I only use one button" complaint. And for most fights, it'll be true, too. Unless you are a warrior. Or a rogue. Mages shoot Arcane Missiles. One button, one button...I know as a hunter, I get to use one button (Arcane Shot) and watch another flash at me (Autoshot). Maybe I'll use Hunter's Mark if another hunter hasn't already. A far cry from when I'm soloing or in a smaller group. But that's what's required of me as a hunter, in a raid. Smooth, aggro-free high DPS output. Those couple of buttons are what do that.

-"That's All I Ask Of You." - The only thing that Avarice requires of you to raid (assuming your toon is able to do so) is simply...yourself. If you are willing and able to commit to being a raider, we want you. We are a bright, intelligent, adaptable bunch of people, and that stands us in good stead for the endgame. That said, there are two things that go a long way in helping out.

The first is CT Raid Assist (CTRA) that you can find here. This helps mainly by making important announcements much harder to miss. Only class leaders and up have the ability to use it's text pop interface, so whatever pops up is usually important and needs to be paid attention to.

The second is TeamSpeak (TS). You can get it here. This allows people to talk and listen over the 'Net. A metric buttload of strategy is discussed here, so even if you can't talk (don't have a mic) it never hurts to listen in. Often when there are "I'm just standing here" moments in the raid, it's because we are hashing things out on TS, which will then be passed along in /ra.

-"Too...Much...Info...Head...Exploding..." - So you are reading this and wondering "People think this is fun?" and you are right...we do. It is an amazing feeling of accomplishment to take down Onyxia. Or watch Geddon flame out in death. End game raiding is a whole new mindset over solo or 5-15 man raiding, and brings a whole new set of rewards.

-"Rewards?" - Yes, there are some shiny purples to upgrade your blues. Avarice uses the Avarice Raid Points System (ARPS) which is explained in much more and better detail here. As well, the standings as they are currently are here.

~"Ooo...Sparkles!" ~Avarice raids with loot on free-for-all, as the Master looter system is buggy and not that good in the first place. What does this mean? That you see a lot of pretty sparkly corpses. However...Don't touch them unless you are the Raid Leader, designated trash looter, or are the person who won the item in question. This prevents any accidental picking up of things, as most things in higher level raids are BoP (some aren't, but you don't want to touch them unless you are the RL, and may still have people say you ninja'ed... :whistling: ). If you are unable to control the impulse to look at what's on a corpse...resist. If you don't, and you see a pretty purple, and announce it, you'll have an irked RL for several reasons. One of them being that there are very few "perks" to being a RL, and being able to announce the fruits of our labors is considered one of them. :)

In addition, this also applies to things like Dark Iron Nodes and skinning. There is a single person designated at the start of the raid to take care of that. It is that person's job to ensure that all resources under their control (for instance, our Dark Iron Miner) are attended to, and the results shipped off appropriately. It is all right to point out a node or a missed skin to these people, it is not all right to mine or skin it yourself. Your turn will come, as it's a rotating duty. Just think of how you'd feel, if it was your turn to be responsible for this stuff, and every time you tried, someone had beaten you to it. The loot isn't kept from you, all you have to do say that you'd like it, or arrange it with the bank/RL. But to just go up and grab it is bad form.

-"That's It, That's All." - So that is the basic info you should know before joining a big raid. It will make the mental adjustment that much easier on you. And make no mistake, the big raids are an adjustment. If you have any questions about raiding, your class leader, your Avarice Council Guild Rep, or even the Raid Leaders (when they aren't leading a raid) are generally happy to answer your question, or point you to someone who is/can.

-The most important thing to remember: We are all friends, and we are here to have fun. We've already made it much further than our doubters thought we would. Let's build on that.

~This next part is pretty much just for Hunters. As I've not played any other class into endgame that isn't a Hunter, I'm only really qualified to speak on that class. Hopefully other folk like the other class leaders or experienced end game players of all classes will offer some insight into their classes roles.

"By Arrow Or By Bullet, We Will Kill You."

The primary role of the Hunter is, as previously mentioned, single target, smooth, aggro-free, high, ranged DPS output. We are (or should be) nearly heal-free damage. We are pullers or splitters. We bring the mob to the tanks toes. Then we stay there, hoping that the tank gets it off us before we die. If not...well, we died well in service to the raid.

There are several ways to pull, and as you are likely 60 by the time you are raiding, you've got your favorite already. All I will add is to use a low ranking instant cast (my pulling macro is currently set to fire a single Arcane Shot, Rank 1) so the tank has no trouble getting aggro from the puller. Don't use a DoT, as those can be tricky to beat for aggro.

When I am pulling and need a hand or a split, I will randomly pick a hunter from the rank and file. It could be you. IMHO, if you are in the raid, you can be called on to perform raid duties. I will quickly explain (in our class channel) what I want you to do. Generally, it'll be something like "I need you to split the Giant off my Destroyer pull, and pull him to the MA." Step up quickly, acquire your target, stand on/near your tank, and tell me when you are ready. Remember that while the raid is waiting for you...I'd rather be sure that you are sure of what you are doing than botch the pull. If you aren't clear on what needs to be done, please ask for clarification.

Pulling in MC can be both as easy as it looks, or harder than you can imagine. Lots of little tricks to learn, as several of you will be learning when raids resume.

Pets have a place in MC now, and I'm not going to tell you how to use your pet. You ought to know by now. ;) Just, please, be careful with them.

Spec...As far as I'm concerned, all three Hunter talent trees are viable. We hunters are a widespread bunch through the trees though, and have passed several "I'm just standing here waiting" times discussing builds and specs. Bring yours to the 'table'. =)

The last point of discussion is gear. What is the well dressed endgame Hunter wearing these days? It comes down to, IMHO, 3 choices. Well, really 2 choices and a special case. The special case is the Black Dragonscale Armor 'set'. High fire resist plus Ranged attack power bonuses make it a shoo-in for the second half of MC. Not required, but nice, to be sure.

The two choices boil down to the full BeastStalker set, or the DM "Crit Set". From my tests, and what I can tell from TheoryCraft, there is very little to distinguish one from the other, aside from your damage preference. I'd say pick one or the other (The DM set would be easier to get, imho) and go for it. It's something else we'll talk about in channel, during the downtimes.

Edit:Corrected more spelling mistakes than I'll ever admit to. I shouldn't write when I've just finished a 12 hour shift. ;)

[hiryuu1115]

Great post Mirajj ^_^

Also, totally crushes the work in progress that I had on the Basin Wiki.

Keeping this from being totally content-free - notes for rogues.

Rogues get the lousy job in raiding. We have probably the best single-target damage output in the game, but are at the most risk while doing so. Unlike the rest of the DPS classes (with the exception of the DPS warrior), we will be in melee range and will probably get squished by an errant footstep. Alternately, the overanxious rogue will draw attention by doing too much damage and get flattened. Tip - don't do that :P

Feint - this ability is essential in raiding. A sucessful hit with Feint will reduce your threat to that mob, making it less likely to attack you. While Alliance rogues may get 30% less threat due to Blessing of Salvation, it is still important to use Feint liberally. Depending on the mob, the tank, and your damage output, you may not need to feint all that much. Other mobs may require you to feint every time you can and to back off in addition to that so the tank can establish aggro. This is something you learn through practice.

Vanish - also known as "poof." If you have been feinting liberally and you still get hit, Vanish is probably your best choice in a raid. If it works (sometimes a big IF), you leave combat and wipe aggro. This is good, since it lets you start in again. Just remember the 5 minute timer and reagent cost.

Utility skills - these don't get much use in raiding, see Mirajj's section on hitting one button. Sap is usually safe, but usually doesn't quite cut it; especially when you need to be in melee range. As someone who has used Improved Sap to pull UBRS, I can say that it was one of the most stressful runs ever. Distract can be useful to stop patrols, but will not be used all that often.

Poison - Instant Poison is pretty much all you use. Once in a while, Mind Numbing and Crippling. I usually keep 2 stacks of Instant, 2 stacks of Crippling, 1 stack of Mind Numbing, 2 stacks of Flash Powder and 1 stack of Blinding Powder.

Talent Spec - again, almost all talent specs will work. Some will work better than others. Personally, I would recommend 31/8/12 for a dagger rogue where Imp. Ambush gives you a solid opener, and Improved Backstab and Seal Fate allow quick generation of combo points for finishers. Alternately, sword/mace/fist rogues may want a 31+ combat build to maximize their Sinister Strike damage (remaining points often end up in Assassination). These builds focus on damage output, which is really all a rogue brings to the table in a raid.

Gear - Shadowcraft is decent as a whole, the standout pieces are probably the helm, belt, and boots. Depending on your build and preference, other blue items may be more preferable. For example, a Seal Fate Rogue might prefer items with straight +crit%, while a SS rogue might prefer items with +Attack Power to get a more consistantly powerful attack. Shadowpanther.net is a good place to start your wish list.

That's enough out of me, hopefully some of the other rogues can continue this list. I'll think about doing pallies later :P

[Tuftears]

This is a nice intro!

Brief notes for druids: most often we will be pigeonholed for healing in the end-game raids. Yes, it's boring. You'll be mostly playing 'health bar whack-a-mole' - something starts going yellow, hit it with a regrowth until it's green again. Or you'll be spamming Decursive to get rid of curses on the raid. Gearing for this is int and +healing, and enough stamina so you won't fall over easily.

There are some exceptions. If we're short on warriors, you might find yourself being asked to play a bear tank. You should be prepared with a 'bear set of gear' which has high armor and good strength. (with good damage comes good aggro) You should also understand the basics of tanking with a bear.

Bear-tanking: this is actually pretty easy. Whack them with your auto-attack and maul. If you have feral charge (a great 11-point feral talent) then use that to close with the enemy quickly and immobilize/counterspell them. Save growl for when you've lost aggro and you need to get it back, or you think you're going to lose aggro very soon. The 10-second timer is irksome but not horrible. Save challenging roar for the real emergencies. 10 minutes is too long for anything less.

However, practice makes perfect!

Back to healing: druids don't have great mana pools or regen compared to priests. You should work on your healing gear so you'll be okay, not weak on mana. Good sets include the Wildheart set and many +healing/int/sta leather items from Dire Maul. The Soothsayer Headdress from Celebras in Maraudon is also a very good leather headpiece.

Conserve mana by not spamming regrowth if you've already hit someone with regrowth in the last few seconds. Regrowth's heal-over-time lasts about 20 seconds, rejuvenation lasts 10 seconds. In between, use lesser ranks of Healing Touch.

You can draw aggro by healing. Wait to heal until you're sure the tanks have aggro. Don't start immediately healing with a 'heal over time' (HoT) spell. In the worst case, this means that as soon as the tank's taken even a few points of damage and your heal runs, the mobs that were initially aggro'd will beelien for you instead. If you wait a little while, the tanks will have pulled and tanked their separate mobs and you won't have any problems.

Druids don't have a 'fade' ability to reduce aggro temporarily like priests. We can shift to cat and cower, but it's probably easier and more survivable, if you have aggro from something, to shift to bear-form instead and wait for a tank to regain aggro. You can use frenzied regeneration and enrage to get back some life this way too.

[Darian]

Warriors:

In Molten Core, there are essentially a total of four possible roles you can play.

1) Main Tank. As a newbie, you'll almost certainly not be asked to fill this role, as the main tank is generally going to be either the best-geared or the most experienced (or both). If you are called on, however, your job is painfully simple: get aggro, hold aggro, avoid being feared, survive. Regardless of your spec, you should be in defensive stance and carrying a shield unless you're so ridiculously geared that healers have no trouble keeping you on your feet while 2H or dual-wielding. Sunder Armor and Revenge are your best friends, and you'll be mashing them every chance you get. Your job is not to pump DPS. Your job is to keep the mob's attention. Period. Sometimes you will be the puller; most times you won't. It's important for the main tank to understand and accept this, and to know when it's time to let someone else do the job.

2) Main Assist. Again, this role won't fall to you as a newbie, but you may be called on. Your choice of weapon, stance, and spec isn't that relevant (unless you're also serving as secondary tank); your job is simply to pick the target and call DPS. You generally want to call DPS on the target once 5 sunders have been landed by whoever's actually tanking the mob, except on boss mobs when the rules are completely different depending on the boss. Sometimes, there won't be an MA at all -- Onyxia, Magmadar, Geddon, Shazzrah, Golemagg are all good examples. Sometimes, the MA will just be the secondary tank (double giant pulls). Sometimes, we actually require TWO main assists for a fight (double firelord pulls). Adaptability is vital.

3) Secondary tanks. This encompasses a couple of different situations. One is the "kill one and move on to the next" battle plan, used on double giant pulls, Lucifron, Garr, Sulfuron, and Majordomo. For this role, it's important that you be able to take punishment, but we'll set a kill order for the mobs in question, cascading down from the best-geared tank. If you're not really well-geared up, there's still room for you at the lower end of the chain on the mobs which will die first. The second situation is the "keep 'em busy" role. This applies to both the core hound packs in MC, and being in a whelp group on an Onyxia run; you just want to hold aggro while AoE burns relatively benign mobs down.

4) None of the above. One of the most difficult roles for a tank in raiding situations is to not have an assigned role at all, or to have a very limited role where you're the fifth offtank on the core hound packs or your target is the first kill target on a Garr attempt. A lot of tanks have asked me in these situations what they should be doing. Basically... you're just DPS. Stay out of the fight until the DPS call, then come unload.

The skills you use are going to be directly related to your role. Sunder, Revenge, Taunt if you're tanking (and Challenging Shout if you're the assigned warrior in an Onyxian whelp group -- you won't have a lot of use for it in MC). Your usual suite of DPS abilities if you're not tanking. Straightforward.

Gear... armor isn't important if you're not tanking. If you are, it is. One mistake you desperately need to avoid, however, is to build a single set of gear that leans heavily on one specific attribute. Some tanks were completely blown apart by putting together +def builds only to see Blizzard nerf +def, for example. In addition, gear which is heavily loaded toward one attribute is, by necessity, deficient in all others. The best bet is to have your main gear be balanced. In your pocket, a set of FR gear is vital as well.

Being a tank on an Avarice raid -- so long as you're on board with the game plan and not being a divisive ass who doesn't want to follow instructions -- is in my opinion one of the funnest "jobs" in the game. It's all about teamwork (and that's the thing the Avarice tank corps takes the most pride in, being a TEAM that supports one another), being prepared to leap headlong into the breach when the guy in front of you falls in battle, and executing detailed plans of action under the command of the raid leader and/or main tank.

[TalAB]

Further Druid Notes:

Healing - As Tufty pointed out, this is our bread-and-butter role. And don't let anyone fool you, we're good at it. Yes it's boring, yes it's repetitive, but in those moments of action it's a lot of fun. It's also immensely rewarding once you realise just how much we, and all healers, tip the scales :).

Tips for the fuzzy healers:
- Innervate: 31pts I admit, but it's a free greater mana potion that you can cast on anyone. Best used on either a nearby Priest or on Yourself.
- Rejuvenation: Stock and trade, when combined with a Priests's renew (and Regrowth if things really hit the fan) this can render a tank in virtual God-Mode for about 12 seconds. Use this to buy yourself time to cast something bigger.
- Regrowth: Flash-Heal for Fuzzies, far less mana-friendly but does have a HoT component and can get a 50%+ crit chance when specced right. Has the downside of generating a lot of aggro if you overheal.
- Healing Touch: Used correctly (ie. anticipate the damage) this is the fastest big heal there is, and it's actually pretty darn easy on the mana.
- Rebirth: Wipe prevention/recovery. Usually on the prevention side, though when timed right a rezzer can use this as a soulstone.
- First Aid: Get it, love it, 300 makes things very easy on the mana (especially in phase 2 Onyxia)

Aggro Management:
Easiest way to do this (and make life less boring) is to make use of multiple ranks of the same spell. Why use Rank 10 HT when Rank 5 will do? If something comes after you, it's pretty much all she wrote so for us the use of the lower rank spells allows us to lay down some impressive healing with almost no aggro (read overheal).
If, inevitably, something does come after you: Bear, Bash, Buzz-Off. And then proceed to pick up right where you left off. You're no good to anyone staying there unless all the other tanks are down, in which case you're probably on the receiving end of somone else's mana - so cut sick with everything you can to stay alive.

Gear Suggestions:
For healing gear: personally I swear by a 7/8 Wildheart Set plus Robes of the Exalted with the Argent Crusader as this provides quite a respectable Mana pool and a very tidy +heal (even better when combined with the Royal Seal of Eldre'Thalas). Although occasionally I've been known to use the Devout Skirt when more mana regen was called for. And with a bit of finesse this is how I lay down the healing I do (those of you who have received it know what I mean ;))

[NotSoDarklord]

Always have blessings!

Find out who the whispercast paladins are.. and spam them every 5 (or 15 in the case of imp salvation) minutes for blessings. Then convince the others to use whispercast so you can get mights/salvationsghts/kings and whathaveyou midfight.

[Alrin]

Always have blessings!

Find out who the whispercast paladins are.. and spam them every 5 (or 15 in the case of imp salvation) minutes for blessings.  Then convince the others to use whispercast so you can get mights/salvationsghts/kings and whathaveyou midfight.
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Hear hear!
Whispercast makes things a whole lot smoother and easier imo.

For mages:

Mana conservation is very nice to keep in mind. We have a high cost, super nice spell called Arcane Missiles. While this is excellent dps, it is nowhere near mana efficient.
Compare this to frostbolts and you have a much more manageable mana spent/second situation than you would have if you were to spam AM for the entirety of a giant/destroyer fight and go oom when the raid switches to the 2nd target.
Even though I use frostbolt quite often (though I am firespecced) I do switch to AM at times when I get a clearcast proc or if I want to increase the burn for a short while I will not put myself in a situation where I have to drink after every single pull.
Its up to every mage to find this balance themselves though.

A mage should also hopefully recognize the importance of stamina equipment. While mana is our dps-blood, a dead mage with 1000 extra mana is no use to the raid. It is very possible and achievable to reach 4k+ hp fully buffed with "standard" blue equipment if you have been running pre-mc instances.
Please, harass your local paladins for Kings. It's just THAT good.
However, while int is our dps-blood, increasing sta and int will not do much to increase your overall damage. That's where +damage gear comes in.
The reader should exercise good judgement here and not go completely overboard with damage either, but try and find a good balance.

The trick is to do great damage while still metering or keeping control of your damage output and making sure you don't inadvertedly draw aggro.
It can be tricky if you score a series of crits but then you should be able to step down for a few seconds before you resume dps-ing.
Other than that, mage is pretty easy. Just pay attention to where the mobs are and you can stay alive very very very long.
Oh and use fire ward liberally when in MC against gehennas, magmadar etc. Its not much damage absorbtion but its a bit and every bit counts.

Have fun!

[Treesh]

Always have blessings!

Find out who the whispercast paladins are.. and spam them every 5 (or 15 in the case of imp salvation) minutes for blessings.  Then convince the others to use whispercast so you can get mights/salvationsghts/kings and whathaveyou midfight.
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So instead of training your pallies correctly, you just rely on bot work. Bleh. I don't doubt it can frequently make things easier, but whispercast is just as bad as decursive. "I don't know how to play my class so I'll just have the computer do it for me." Just train your people who play pallies to do things correctly in the first place.

[Quark]

Rogues:

Rogues are top or near-top DPS every raid, but it comes at a price. Our job is more dangerous than most other jobs in raiding.

The first thing you need to know as a Rogue is that you are expendable. Don't expect any heals - only be thankful for them. If you're fighting with low life, back off and bandage. You should bring at least two stacks of bandages to a raid, because somedays you just might use over 25.

Health: The key here is breaking 4k fully buffed hitpoints. This allows you to take a few things before the healers notice you, or before you start using bandages and health pots. Lava Surger's Surge move does exactly 1k damage - you can take 4 of these then. Lucifron's magic debuff does 2000 damage - you can take 2 of these if you don't resist. The more often you can take a hit without dying, the less often you'll be stuck needing to bandage with the 'Recently Bandaged' debuff.

Positioning: Many mobs have AoEs, and most of them are Point Blank. Learn the difference between how these work, and how your positioning is key in reducing damage. If it's a circular PBAoE, well, you're stuck. Such is the life of the Rogue - you're going to take damage. If it's a conical PBAoE, always be behind the target. If your combat log says you've been hit with a Cleave, you're out of position. Even if you use swords or maces, act like you use daggers and need to be behind the targets at all time.

The one noticeable exception to this is Gehennas' guards. They have an attack that is both circular ('Hand of Ragnaros' stun) and conical ('Cleave' damage) - learn to only be taking one.

Tactics: Do pure DPS as long as you are using you Feint skill to counteract the aggro. You should get a feel for how often Feints are necessary - push the limits on trash mobs to make sure you know when you need to cutoff. If you get aggro in a really dangerous position, Vanish. Most important - make sure you have a Blessing of Salvation before you start doing damage. If you don't, hold off on your damage until you do. As for our skillset, there's not much more than using your pure DPS skills while raiding. Rupture and Garrote are wasteful - Slice and Dice and Eviscerate are your finishing moves of choice. Particularly when DoTs on Onyxia are called for, don't bite. Other classes can DoT at little cost - when Rogues use Rupture, they're sacrificing the better Eviscerate.

Mind Numbing Poison is quite useful against many of the bosses. Instant Poison is a good increase to DPS, but many of the elementals are immune to it.

Gear: Basically, whatever raises your damage as long as you're not going too far and killing your 4k hp goal. For many fights, Fire Resist is key. Rogues need Fire Resist almost as much as the main tank needs it, so don't be afraid to be wearing crappy greens in a fight if it means giving you Fire Resist. Shadow Resist is helpful in some fights, but never really necessary. The best thing to do is get yourself a Felhide Cap and a Nightbrace Tunic - they both have good overall stats, fire resist, and shadow resist. Wear these (and other resist gear) when resist is important.

[Kevin]

I'd like to add a few things on warriors as well.

Having been one of the few warriors that has played all the roles that Darian mentioned more than once in both MC and Onyxia I figure I can give a few tips. I'll start on the other end of his list. This is for MC/Ony as well.

Gear: I've taken the other route and use wardrobe to specialize my outfits for various encounters. Fire lords do pure fire damage so I pump that on them. I have high arcane outfits for Shazz, I have a mix of fire resist and def for ancient core hounds. I have a higher DPS set up. I have a DPS with a chance that I'll have to offtank set-up. You don't have to do this and keep in mind if you do you need to be quick with the changes since you can't change in combat. The other thing to keep in mind though is that stamina can almost never do you wrong. Sure optimal may be more def or more FR but when in doubt stamina with decent armor can't hurt you.

Main Tank : Darian covered it. You will have rage flowing in at a huge rate. So you can actually throw out shield slams and heroic strikes as well. These are high aggro skills and with as much rage as you have you don't need to worry about the most aggro/rage (which is actually revenge followed by shield bash). The job is all about aggro.

Main Assist : What Darian said again. When you learn the tanks better you will learn how soon you can call DPS but then again calling at 3 sunders vs 5 saves the raid all of about 10 seconds so the 5 sunder rule is generally pretty safe. As mentioned in places like Onyxia there will be someone who is calling DPS but the raid isn't really assisting them. As mentioned the MA won't always be a warrior either but we like to use them simply because of the CTRA tank windows it makes it easier. We do expect all warriors to understand when and how to call DPS in Molten Core though so pay attention or ask the other warriors when they are doing it.

Secondary Tanks : One skill that you should use if you aren't being beat on is thunderclap. 10% slower attacks on the mob is a good thing.

Some more specifics. We use 2 tanks per Molten Giants to keep them in place if they punt the other tank. The secondary tanks job is to stay just behind the primary tanks aggro on that mob. If you are backing up the main tank generally this means you sit in battle stance, make sure a thunder clap is on the mob and whack it. If the mob punts the MT flop into defensive stance to lower the damage of the one or two hits you'll take if you want. If the MT dies be ready to play tank. Since this is the second target to die you'll have plenty of time to build secondary aggro there is no need to try and take aggro from the other tank the healers aren't looking at your health as closely. If you are backing up the tank on the first target to die you are doing basically the same thing. After they land 5 sunders and DPS is called you may want to throw a sunder or higher aggro hit of your own in there now and then since the raid damage is coming and your job is to make sure that thing hits you when it punts the other tank.

If we have the tanks we'll also assign you as a back up in fights like Lucifron and Gehennas on the guards. In the Luci fight especially with the mind control you have to be on your toes. When we are short on warriors and using paladins or bear druids as back-ups you might even get the job of roaving tank in Luci which means you back up everyone, and trust me with Mind Controls you will very likely end up tanking every mob in that fight for a time, though you are less likely to see Luci. I've been in the position where I tanked Luci and both guards for a period of time in that fight thanks to mind controls. It's fun trying to get enough aggro to keep the mob off the raid but keep it low enough so that the other tank can get it back when they get back to you.

You'll end up tanking Lave Packs and Garr adds as well.

None of the above : This can actually be a lot of fun, though now that we've gotten better you are less likely to have to jump in and main tank or pick up a patrol that got to close. But your job is to do DPS. Thunderclap will still help out here, again 10% slower attack means less damage to the MT and more chances to see holy fire or starfire from the healers and those are pretty spells you want to see them. :) But you get to pretend to be a rogue. Check Quarks post about the rogues, this is you but you have plate mail and the chance that if someone dies you might the one holding aggro and getting all the heals. You will be a little higher on the heal list than a rogue but not much bring bandages with you as well.


Skills : One other thing a whelp group tank should do is dem shout and piercing howl if you have it. This is true anytime you are supporting AoE though. Thunderclaps are nice too but a little trickier to get out. But this is true for anytime you are a tank supporting AoE. You want to have as little damage as possible hitting that mage or warlock. So do try to tank as many of the whelps as you can. It will take them some time to kill you even with a large pack on you and little healing coming your way.

Shield wall and Last Stand both have uses as main or secondary tank. Don't be afraid to use them. If you aren't directly tanking shield walling when you take aggro of if you have to step up when the MT goes down can often give the healers enough time to find you and send heals your way.


As Darian said, being a tank in avarice raids is a blast. I love all the roles I've played and I've played them all. Charging in with a high attack power set and a big two hander or dual wield to dish out as much damage as I can to main tanking Onyxia, Luci, Shazzrah, Garr, or whoever. We pride ourselves on having a fun close knit group of tanks that know that anyone there can step up and do any job that we ask of them. But if you bitch and piss and moan or decide that you are a better tank so do all you can to take aggro, you'll not get our respect and you'll not have as much fun.

[Tuftears]

One big tip that goes for most classes: the usual instinctual response to having aggro from something huge and painful is to run away. Don't. Instead, run it back up to the tanks.

Also, on rebirth: I find it very handy to make a macro that sends a tell to the target that if they can rez, they should either rez someone immediately, or wait for after the raid to wipe so they can come up afterward - as TalAB says, like a soulstone.

Incidentally: you should learn to recognize these conditions:

* Someone has been Divine Interventioned: a bluish bubble surrounds them and they can't move. They are most likely a rezzing class, with a paladin dead at their feet. The raid has 20 seconds or so to die off so the monsters can reset and they can pop out of DI, no longer in combat.

* Soulstone: if a warlock is available, he or she will usually soulstone one of the paladins in a raid. This allows the paladin to pop up for no more than two minutes or so after he dies, and he can then begin rezzing other rezzers. They then rez more rezzers and so on, until all the rezzers are up and they can begin rezzing. This is a purple-reddish orb-like buff icon, but may be difficult to see, so it's usual for people to ask after a wipe, 'Anyone soulstoned?'

If the raid is wiping, please be careful not to die too close to Molten Core monsters or in places you can't be reached without aggroing monsters, as it makes it difficult to rez you. If you are in such a circumstance, you may have to release and run back.

Also, TalAB, overhealing doesn't cause aggro. Too early healing does. So far as I know, regrowth doesn't cause more aggro than healing touch.

[TheDragoon]

Gear... armor isn't important if you're not tanking.  If you are, it is.  One mistake you desperately need to avoid, however, is to build a single set of gear that leans heavily on one specific attribute.  Some tanks were completely blown apart by putting together +def builds only to see Blizzard nerf +def, for example.  In addition, gear which is heavily loaded toward one attribute is, by necessity, deficient in all others.  The best bet is to have your main gear be balanced.  In your pocket, a set of FR gear is vital as well.

I'm not sure I agree with a lot of this paragraph. The warrior is the single most equipment-dependant class out there. There are a lot of situations where any warrior in the group might need to jump in and save the day, so it's important that they all work on their gear to prepare them for these big raids. Even if you're reasonably sure that you won't be tanking, there are still things that are a good idea to get to help out the raid.

Concerning defense, I don't think that tanks were "completely blown apart" by the nerf. Certainly, they whined loud and long about it since they had put so much time into acquiring so much +defense gear and it got nerfed. However, those warriors have simply adjusted to what happened. Some of them looked for other sources of +defense gear to get back up to the ~425 defense threshold where they don't suffer critical hits. Others stocked up on other forms of damage mitigation such as +dodge or even more stamina on their gear. Despite the whining and the hype, +defense gear is STILL very good for a warrior, particularly one tanking in the big raid instances.

Now for my 2 cents:

--------------------------------------------------------------

Gearing up a Warrior for End-Game Raiding

In end-game raids, the warrior's job is to soak up attacks by mitigating damage and controlling the mobs so that they do not rampage through the other less-defensive classes. To this end, it is essential that warriors work on gearing themselves up so they can handle the threats.

When trying to figure out what kind of gear you're looking for, it is important that you remember that there are three primary goals to shoot for in any encounter:

- Mitigate as much damage as possible
- Provide your healers with as high a life total as you can
- Reduce the number of critical hits that you suffer

Of these, the first is the most obvious: The less damage you take, the better off the raid is. Since many mobs in the end-game use area of effect attacks, this applies to the main tank as well as any other warrior in the raid who wants to get up close and personal with the mobs. It is a mistake to assume that non-tanking warriors can get away without worrying about their damage mitigation. The more damage those warriors take, the more healing is diverted their way from other, more important targets, so they should be focused on their mitigation just as much as other warriors.

The second goal is also very important. Anyone that has ever tried to heal in a raiding situation for tanks with varying life totals will agree that it is easier and less stressful to heal the tanks who have more life. For many situations, the reason that main tanks die is that they take too much burst damage and the healers do not recognize the threat and act quick enough to save the tank. The more life you have, the more cushion that the healers have toward keeping you alive. Even off-tanks can benefit from having more life since it can allow them to fight up close to many mobs like Magmadar for longer without having to pull back and bandage themselves.

The third point is the one that can often make or break a warrior. As stated above in the second goal, burst damage taken from a mob is often the cause for fallen warriors. Usually this burst damage occurs in an unlucky streak of critical hits against the warrior. Therefore, it is imperative that warriors be ready with the right gear for the right situation to try and reduce the number of critical hits they suffer.

Defense against critical hits comes in a variety of flavors, depending upon the mob you are facing.

Against physical damage-based mobs, +defense gear is key. Not only does defense gear raise your chance to dodge/parry/block an attack (raising your overall damage mitigation), it also reduces the number of critical hits you take. In fact, it has been shown that as you approach a buffed defense of ~425 a warrior sees a greatly reduced number of critical hits, eventually reaching the point where he no longer suffers a single critical hit. Since the +defense nerf, it is very difficult to reach this threshold but if you can manage it, the outcome is very impressive. That said, even a little +defense gear is good, but the more the better.

Against magical attacks-based mobs, resistances are key. Many mobs such as the Firelords of the Molten Core or Baron Geddon use entirely fire-based attacks. Thus, warriors should strap on as much resistance against those elements as they can. Besides just reducing the number of critical hits that a warrior would see, resistance acts as damage mitigation, as well. If you can get enough resistance, something that might have previously torn you to shreds can almost be laughed off.

However, many mobs are not easily pidgeon-holed into one form of attack. Mobs like the Core Hounds of the Molten Core do both physical damage and fire damage. For cases like this, it is important to be prepared for both types of attacks, but it is also a good idea to prioritize the type of incoming damage. If one damage type provides a steady form of damage (like Onyxia's physical attacks on the main tank) it is good to try and reduce that as much as possible but if the other form of damage results in huge bursts of damage (like Onyxia's fire breath) the burst damage is generally what you need to protect yourself from the most. It is easy for healers to heal steady incoming damage but burst damage is more likely to get you killed. Thus, it's a good idea to focus mostly on protecting yourself from the burst damage and just try to mitigate the steady damage as best you can.

For much of the existing end-game instances, fire resistance is far-and-away more important that other resistances, so stack up as much of it as you can. However, some encounters (like Shazzrah using arcane damage or many targets in Zul Gurub using nature damage) will make use of other damage types, so it's a good idea to be prepared for those, as well.


"So all of this is well and good, but what if I'm the back-up to the back-up tank? What can I do then?"

If there really isn't much of a chance that you will EVER be pressed into tanking duties for a battle, then you can focus even more on what you're really doing - dishing out damage. For this, specialized gear that provides attack power and extra chance to get critical hits can be employed to ratchet up your offensive skills. This sort of gear is often what people look for when gearing up for PvP combat, so if you're not sure what to look for, a PvP guide might be a good place to start.

However, as stated above even a damage-based warrior in a raid should try and work on defense against the various AoE damages that you are likely to see so that you don't spend most of your time bandaging or drawing healing away from the tanks.

[TheDragoon]

Heh, it took me about an hour to type up my last post and so you beat me to some of the stuff. :)

[Darian]

I'm not sure I agree with a lot of this paragraph.
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Then apparently you somehow missed the spectacle of the +400 def warrior being the one who always died the fastest when he had to take over tanking, since dodging that extra one crit in a hundred hits didn't do him much good when he was running with 4300hp and 52% damage reduction vs. level 60 mobs, thus allowing the bad guys to beat him to death without critting him at all. Rest assured, that specfic tank was most certainly blown away by the nerf, because he'd neglected everything BUT defense.

I suspect that perhaps that in the rush to disagree with a collateral point, the real point of the quoted paragraph was missed despite its key word being in boldface.

As to being called on to step in for a fallen tank... if you're not being expected to tank, odds are that if everyone on the raid who IS being expected to tank is dead, it's a wipe regardless. While it's never a bad idea for a None of the Above to have adequate tanking gear, I don't view it as a necessity for tank #7 to be overly concerned about the possibility of being under-geared for tanking duty either.

[martini]

-DPS calls. On most of the mobs you will wait until the MA has built enough aggro to hold the mob against the raid's damage, and 'calls' for DPS on his target to begin. Then and only then will you 'open fire', and start slow. If the mob gets loose or the MA calls DPS off, stop all aggro generating activity immediately. Wait until the DPS is called on again before resuming attacking. This is essential, and not hard. Messing up repeatedly here is more likely than anything else to get you uninvited. Some mobs, however, you start DPS on right away. Ask your class leader.[right][snapback]90737[/snapback][/right]

Another place to find out when to wait for dps calls and when it's okay to start without a call is the Basin Wiki, I tried to include it as part of the information that's listed for all of the trash mobs. Always wait for dps calls on bosses.

Note that I wrote most of what's there, and have had some Avarice members correct me in some places and add helpful notes, but it's not perfect. Refinement is always appreciated.

[TheDragoon]

Rest assured, that specfic tank was most certainly blown away by the nerf, because he'd neglected everything BUT defense.

I think that those sorts of stories are not particularly common. Most people have realized what was happening and adapted. So perhaps you are right, some tanks were stupid about what they were doing and got blown away. But the vast majority were not and simply changed their gear tactics. It was definitely not all doom and gloom as you imply with your tone.

While it's never a bad idea for a None of the Above to have adequate tanking gear, I don't view it as a necessity for tank #7 to be overly concerned about the possibility of being under-geared for tanking duty either.

This would be why I included the bottom section talking about getting some offensive gear if you don't think you'll be needed for tanking. Of course warrior #7 will probably be free to go after offense. However, they'll still want resistances and decent damage mitigation so that the AoE attacks that are so prevalent in the end-game raids don't destroy him leaving him to either spend all of his time bandaging or drawing healing resources away from the raid.

I suspect that perhaps that in the rush to disagree with a collateral point, the real point of the quoted paragraph was missed despite its key word being in boldface.

Well, given that my post detailed much the same thing (but in more detail), rest assured, I did not miss the point. I just don't feel that painting a doom and gloom picture about +defense skill really proves why your gear must be balanced.

[Concillian]

Has the downside of generating a lot of aggro if you overheal.

[...]

Why use Rank 10 HT when Rank 5 will do?  If something comes after you, it's pretty much all she wrote so for us the use of the lower rank spells allows us to lay down some impressive healing with almost no aggro (read overheal).

I thought it had been pretty well established that 'overhealing' aggro was a myth, and that only actual amounts healed caused aggro.

Did something change in recent patches that overhealing is a problem now?

[hiryuu1115]

Paladins - the unfortunate class in my opinion. If you disagree what I say in this post, please post reasonings instead of just saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

Role - unfortunately, in a raid, a paladin's role is to buff the raid every 4.5 minutes and use heals and Cleanse. A lot. A paladin's DPS pales in comparison to a rogue or a DPS role warrior. So do what you can do that the rogues and warriors can't, and maybe you can save the raid with a timely Divine Intervention/Blessing of Salvation. Rarely, the paladin will be asked to offtank something. One more role that will be discussed later is the Out of Combat Rezzer.

Heals - you will mostly be using Flash of Light to chip in little heals here and there. Holy Light tends to be too slow for most healing occasions, and Laying of Hands is only available every hour (40 min. talented). Holy Light is nice to do if you have time to drop a nice heal on a rogue or something.

Cleanse - This will get a lot of use. There are a lot of important debuffs that need to be cleared in raids, so keep on your toes and be ready to cleanse. Decursive is one of those love/hate mods. I find that I lag too much in raids to contribute much, so I use it. If you are fortunate enough to have great FPS in massive groups, more power to you and I would encourage you to do it manually in case Blizzard does prevent Decursive from working in a future patch.

Blessings - the major reason why paladins get taken for raids. Usually, the 40 man raid will be divided by even and odd groups for paladins to divide labor. A 10/15/20 man raid will usually be covered by all paladins. The class leader will usually inquire what blessings people have and delegate blessings to paladins.

Every 4 minutes or so, you will be expected to refresh your blessings. The raid will not wait for you, so do it on the move or in the middle of combat if necessary. For the purposes of a ready check, paladin blessings count. So finish your blessings before hitting ready or hit not ready and let the raid know what's going on.

Re: Buff mods - if you need them, use them. It is far more impressive to show that you are paying attention and keeping your blessings up on your own. Whispercast personally drives me nuts, as it gives other people control of the casting when the blessing they need is from someone else.

Might - Warriors and Rogues.

Wisdom - Priests, Druid, Mage, Warlock, Hunter - Hunters because BoMight doesn't seem to help their ranged DPS :|

Kings - Everyone. Not essential to get but very nice to have. You may want to respec for it or respec out depending on the long term raid composition.

Salvation - Everyone but the tank and the lead mage when they are using AOE. Probably the most important blessing available, the Improved version is highly recommended as 15 minutes seems like an eternity at times.

Light - Everyone if possible, tanks otherwise. Very nice to have because of the nice boost to paladin healing.

Sanctuary - This one is less important in raiding because of the DPS of Mobs this high. Occasionally nice to have for mages in AoE situations. Let the class leader know and see if it will be needed.

Sacrifice - Very useful situationally. Tanks and mages when they will be taking a lot of damage. Remember to heal yourself as 55 damage on each hit can kill a paladin very quickly in raids.

Freedom - Very useful situationally. Not so much in Molten Core, but quite useful for High Priestess Mar'li in Zul'Gurub. Save it for the tank so they can continue rushing around and holding aggro.

Protection - Very useful situatationally, but be very careful to avoid using it on tanks and lead mages as it clears aggro. Key usage is when the healer gets aggro. Talent is nice to have as it makes it available close to every fight unless Anadrol is pulling :P

Auras - a specific buff for your party. Very nice to have, but remember to keep flipping around to ensure the best aura is active for the situation.

Devotion - a fine choice for most situations. The extra armor is rarely bad.

Retribution - for some AoE situations. An extra 20 damage here and there never hurt.

Concentration - Coupled with Spiritual Focus, heals are essentially uninterruptable. In a raid, the paladin should not be in risk, but nice to have active if you need to offtank something and heal.

Shadow, Frost, Fire Protection - when your group is low on resistances, these auras can be lifesavers. Know or ask about damage in advance so you can keep the proper aura up.

Sanctity Aura - if you ever need this aura up, congratulations on finding a unique situation. The other 6 are almost always more useful.

Seals - The most useful ones are Seal of Light, Seal of Wisdom, Seal of Justice, and Seal of Command. Light and Wisdom are amazing to have judged on a mob, but only one of each needs to be on the mob. Ask the class leader if you should be running in to use Judgment. Justice is for those times that something needs to stay put, but often ranged DPS, Crippling Poison, Curse of Recklessness, Curse of Exhaustion, Hamstring, Concussion Shot, Leg Clip, or Frost Nova will have taken care of things. Seal of Command is likely the best DPS output a paladin will have when using a two hander, Seal of the Crusader is probably better for a one hander.

Hammer of Justice and Hammer of Wrath - Often, mobs will be immune to Hammer of Justice, but you will learn in time. Save it for a mob going after a caster or to stop a runner. Hammer of Wrath is nice if you have a nice cushion of mana and you want to contribute. Just remember that the damage is nice, not essential and your primary role is healing and buffing.

Divine Intervention - This ability can save a wipe. Sometimes it doesn't work. If you're going down, it's worth a shot. Divine Shield or BoProtection yourself first so you can calm down and find the person furthest from the action who can rez. Once you land DI, let people know so they can die asap and give your sacrifice meaning. Don't forget the long cooldown and reagent cost.

Offtanking - not often. If you do, be proud that you got tapped for the role and make sure you do your best job possible. Sword/Board, Judge Fury, Seal of Fury, and keep it on you.

Out of Combat Rezzer - some boss fights need an out of combat rezzer. If you are asked to do so, stand as far away from the fight as possible and run in when necessary. If you get tagged in combat, run away first and wait. Sometimes you can drop back out of combat and go back to OOC rez again.

Gear - Start collecting a set of healing gear, focusing on stamina/intellect/+healing or effect on spells/spirit. Your minimum life should be 4000, when buffed. You want more than that if possible. Mana pool should be roughly the same, but will probably be higher. Paladin spells are generally cheap with the exception of Holy Light and BoWisdom helps a lot. This does not mean you should skimp.

Many of these items will be cloth/leather/mail, so what. A few more armor will not matter when something is smashing you for 1500 damage on a normal attack, and you should not be in melee range in a raid anyways. Getting this gear should not be t the expense of people who cannot wear anything but the lower levels of armor (Clothies).

Again, that's my contribution. I hope some of the other paladins can add to this.

[WildFire]

I hope this doesn't sound like one of those 'give mages their dmg role back' whines you see on the official forums, but I am growing disheartened playing a mage.

It used to be that we compensated for our over-squishiness by being able to unleashed fiery and frozen wrath onto ugly beasties from all over. OK, rogues were outdamaging us, but then hey, they had to get up real close and personal to do it. I could live with that.

Then the advent of the SM/Ruin (and the MD/Ruin, possibly) warlock made us look less than ideal, at least from a DD point of view.

And now we have hunters and warriors with suped-up weapons who appear to be able to dole out the hurt without even breaking out a sweat, and without having to sit down and have a swig of juice every other encounter.

Sure, we still have AOE, but then the opportunities to use it are few and far between in raids, and it doesn't exactly lend itself to being useful when it matters - i.e. boss fights.

So, are we really only for doing the 'Here's your water, Sir or Ma'am' role, and to maybe toss a few portals up every so often?

I've seen boss fights fail because we didn't have enough healers, or warlocks, or tanks/offtanks, but I don't think I've seen a situation where a boss couldn't be done because there wasn't enough mages. I know we don't usually want for mages, but honestly, would we be missed? If there wasn't enough of us, I think you could quite easily swap us in with hunters or get a few warriors to take a dps role.

In short, Kateley is not feeling that she's making a difference by being there for a raid. It seems that she's only there to make up the numbers, and if it there was a toss-up for a 20th or 40th slot, it is quite likely you could find another class better to fill the slot than a squishy mage who's not really chucking all that much damage out anyway.

So, no love for the mage in present-day raiding, or are we being taken for granted because there's usually no shortage of us?

[Kevin]

I hope this doesn't sound like one of those 'give mages their dmg role back' whines you see on the official forums, but I am growing disheartened playing a mage.
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Unfortunately Blizzards design pretty much does a mage in for raiding. Skan has been complaining about it for months and it's pretty easy to see first hand in those instances. Without some love from Blizzard you don't offer much in Molten Core or Onyxia except in a few places (whelps, imps and sheeping for MajorDomo) and with the right classes you can be replaced for those with the execption of needing 4 for MajorDomo. Even the water is only marginal benefit because on trash mobs the healers won't run dry and they can regen on the move and/or take some time off on the next fight if they don't want to drink. During boss fights they only need it if they get combat rezzed to get back up quickly after drinking/eating/bandaging.

I hear mages have more use in Zul'Gurrub and I'm hoping that other high end instances give them some love but yeah 40 man raid game they aren't that valuable. 5 man and lower end raids they are huge help, PvP they are a big help.

Single target DPS mages are already behind rogues, warlocks, hunters, and damage warriors. 1.8 a balance druid should beat them out and a feral druid in cat probably will as well. So yeah mages need some Blizzard love or everyone else needs a nerf. With the how easy most of the game is I'm almost inclined to call for a nerf of everyone else. :)

It's got to be rough being a mage in these 40 man raids.