Mastering a character class

[the Langolier]

What makes a character good? I mean, let's face it - Diablo is hardly an RPG. All level 50 warriors are basically the same. Any player/character can get the same spells, stats, and pretty similar items.

But how can you measure real skill? How do you know when someone really knows their enemies, their spells and when to use them, the dungeon layout and how to use it to their advantage? I've been thinking of different ways to challenge even the most decked out characters from their creation to the highest levels. Here are some (if you want a more complete description, just ask):

Ironman through dlvl 4 (or possible even through catacombs)
Complete a 3@30 victory
Max base stats
Max spell levels
Clear Hell/Hell solo using no more than a belt (8) of potions. Any potions found are OK too.

The idea is that all the challenges together can be used to rate characters. Let's say there were 7 total. Then there are three levels a character can achieve: bronze (4/7 done), silver (6/7 done), and gold (7/7). Some should be pretty hard and give higher levels goals to reach for.

What can you come up with?

[Nystul]

So basically, you are looking for challenges that don't involve restricting the characters stats, spells, or equipment?

One thing we used to have a lot of fun with was a concept Charis created called Retribution...

The Retribution Quest

This is a new quest that can be chosen by any character, although originally designed the demoniac. In this quest the character wants not only to slay Diablo, but to have the Lord of Terror watch and moan as each of his defendents is slain before his very eyes. On entry to level 16, the switches to Diablo's room must be opened by telekinesis before any monster is killed. The character then goes toward his lair until Diablo is visible. The retributor then proceeds to kill each of the minions of the level right in front of Diablo -- none may be slain if he is not onscreen. The retributor must be very powerful or very fast to survive the constant chasing and apocolypse blasts from Diablo. (He may wish to use an Apocolypse or two himself.) At some point Gorash will also be found; he should then become a second witness. Thus at the end only the character, Gorash and Diablo will be left standing. Slay Gorash, and finally Diablo, to successfully complete the Retribution Quest. (A highly recommended quest for Paladdin, Cleric, Death Knight, and any who have lost an item to lag on lvl 16 :-)

Some believe that "Jim", the lone black knight on level 16, is actually a personal bodyguard to the Dark Lord, and should be the third witness to the retribution. Thus the ideal retribution would be to find Jim, Gorash, and Diablo before killing anything on 16, and have them on screen for every death, before finally killing them in the listed order.

[BruceGod]

Or you could be a Beyond Naked character.

[Lunan]

for warriors i've always thought that it took great skill to use a low ac war. so a solo hell/hell cleared straight thru as a low ac would be a good test.
for mages there are the 3 basic types. arty, arch, and tank
to run a tank is i feel the most fun. but arch and arty can be highly amusing.
the other tests are the no resists types. also the timed runs. but i don't remember what the time for total clearing of hell is for each of the classes

[Ashock]

What makes a character good? I mean, let's face it - Diablo is hardly an RPG. All level 50 warriors are basically the same. Any player/character can get the same spells, stats, and pretty similar items.

But how can you measure real skill? How do you know when someone really knows their enemies, their spells and when to use them, the dungeon layout and how to use it to their advantage? I've been thinking of different ways to challenge even the most decked out characters from their creation to the highest levels. Here are some (if you want a more complete description, just ask):

Ironman through dlvl 4 (or possible even through catacombs)
Complete a 3@30 victory
Max base stats
Max spell levels
Clear Hell/Hell solo using no more than a belt (8) of potions. Any potions found are OK too.

The idea is that all the challenges together can be used to rate characters. Let's say there were 7 total. Then there are three levels a character can achieve: bronze (4/7 done), silver (6/7 done), and gold (7/7). Some should be pretty hard and give higher levels goals to reach for.

What can you come up with?
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Completing all of the above makes one a pretty competent player, definately. However, it would not necessarily make them "good". There are many here that have done all of the above, and then some.

For warriors, I'd say it would be the speed at which they could clear H/H, preferably without dying and with decent, not perfect eq. At least as far as "powergaming" skills are concerned. If you want to limit yourself as far as some eq. is concerned, that is completely different and would require different skills.


-A

[the Langolier]

Completing all of the above makes one a pretty competent player, definately. However, it would not necessarily make them "good". There are many here that have done all of the above, and then some.

Very true. I can think of some amazing ironman victories, quadruple barbarian hell/hell game, etc. A lot of times, however, the word that comes to my mind with a lot of that is 'tedious'.

For warriors, I'd say it would be the speed at which they could clear H/H, preferably without dying and with decent, not perfect eq.

The phrase that comes to my mind in this case is 'power gaming'. If you need a lot of teleport and a lot of potions, you can go easy on the skill. For example, teleporting into D's chamber in hell. There's really no tactics involved. Just wear good equipment, hack 'n slash, and drink like hell.

There's this fine line, which is why I am looking for input! What is something that will require characters, even when fully equipped, to apply sound tactics on many levels (using dungeon layout, defensive+offensive spells) and not be TOO tedious, and not promote power-gaming?

Retribution quest - tedious
Timed dungeon clears - power gaming
Maxing spell levels - tedious
...

Really, out of my initial list, the only thing that I could come up with is Clear Hell/Hell with limited potions. Of course, my personal style is maximize effeciency, which is why I don't teleport around constantly, among other things.

[Ashock]

Very true.  I can think of some amazing ironman victories, quadruple barbarian hell/hell game, etc.  A lot of times, however, the word that comes to my mind with a lot of that is 'tedious'.
The phrase that comes to my mind in this case is 'power gaming'.  If you need a lot of teleport and a lot of potions, you can go easy on the skill.  For example, teleporting into D's chamber in hell.  There's really no tactics involved.  Just wear good equipment, hack 'n slash, and drink like hell.

There's this fine line, which is why I am looking for input!  What is something that will require characters, even when fully equipped, to apply sound tactics on many levels (using dungeon layout, defensive+offensive spells) and not be TOO tedious, and not promote power-gaming?

Retribution quest - tedious
Timed dungeon clears - power gaming
Maxing spell levels - tedious
...

Really, out of my initial list, the only thing that I could come up with is Clear Hell/Hell with limited potions.  Of course, my personal style is maximize effeciency, which is why I don't teleport around constantly, among other things.
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It is a piece of cake to clear H/H without using more than 3-4 pots, at least reds. You do need to be at least somewhat careful. If you're going to go crazy though, some potion usage is necessary. With a KSOV, you don't really need any pots at all, but is tedious and slow. In any case, the real measure of how good you are is when you play alongside the best in the game. Since that is really not an option anymore, I would not worry about it if I were you. If you're good, it's good enough.



-A


Edit: Try some mods. VK Middle Earth Mod and their plain original VK come to mind. Very challenging for a pure character, except Sorc of course.

[the Langolier]

It is a piece of cake to clear H/H without using more than 3-4 pots
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When you do it with a sorcerer, let me know.

[Ashock]

When you do it with a sorcerer, let me know.
[right][snapback]92565[/snapback][/right]

I had 1 Sorc and 1 Rogue that did 3@30 and were retired immediately. The rest of my characters were Warriors. If you want to talk about warriors, I can do that. For the others, look somewhere else. However, Sorcs are so easy that it is difficult to figure out how good you are no matter what eq. you use.



-A

[Hureg]

I had 1 Sorc and 1 Rogue that did 3@30 and were retired immediately. The rest of my characters were Warriors. If you want to talk about warriors, I can do that. For the others, look somewhere else. However, Sorcs are so easy that it is difficult to figure out how good you are no matter what eq. you use.
-A
[right][snapback]92566[/snapback][/right]

Eso = Langolier I gather

A good challenge for warriors is mastering Hell/Hell with low ac axe play. Preferably with a partner or two on the same setup and not using Ironman like bait tactics. I wouldn't try it with anything but a kings haste though and if you ever get to the stage where you feel there's no challenge in that anymore, you can always try with a staff. I think that meets your criteria and in my opinion it's a lot more fun than regular gaming styles.

As for Rogues, low ac health bow rogues seem to be popular with the players trying to test the limits of their skill. Though in my opinion Ironmaning with a Rogue is soooooooo much more fun than taking them to hell/hell.

If any of you play like this and want to coop some time let me know.

Btw - Langolier. We played together a week or so ago and as soon as 16 was cleared my internet cut out, I came back but you were gone, hope you weren't thinking I wasn't enjoying your company and left without thanking you for the game or anything :).

[Thenryb]

However, Sorcs are so easy that it is difficult to figure out how good you are no matter what eq. you use.
-A

[right][snapback]92566[/snapback][/right]

That is true unless you try one without manashield and Geezer spell restrictions:)

[Griselda]

Sorcs are so easy that it is difficult to figure out how good you are no matter what eq. you use.
-A
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That's why my favorite mage was always the rogue class!

For me, a good player was never about what they could accomplish, but about how they could go through the "little" parts of the game- if they used terrain well, were able to adapt to the monsters or layout of a level smoothly, and played cooperatively (also adapting to the characters they played with), then they were an excellent player. Those aren't really things you could measure or that make good reports on Diablo forums, though.

[Ashock]

[right][snapback]92566[/snapback][/right]
That is true unless you try one without manashield and Geezer spell restrictions:)
[right][snapback]92882[/snapback][/right]

Bah, that's nothing! Try that plus no more than 2 mana pots/level..... small ones too :P


-A

[Ashock]

That's why my favorite mage was always the rogue class!

For me, a good player was never about what they could accomplish, but about how they could go through the "little" parts of the game- if they used terrain well, were able to adapt to the monsters or layout of a level smoothly, and played cooperatively (also adapting to the characters they played with), then they were an excellent player.  Those aren't really things you could measure or that make good reports on Diablo forums, though.
[right][snapback]92886[/snapback][/right]

Yes, and unfortunately, the days of good D1 co-op games are pretty much done. D2's co-op never really had the same meaning to me. There was not nearly the same level of adapting to your partners as in D1, and the lack of FF probably had a lot to do with it.


I was lucky to have played with some of the better D1 players out there, so I should not complain.



-A

[Griselda]

Yes, and unfortunately, the days of good D1 co-op games are pretty much done. D2's co-op never really had the same meaning to me. There was not nearly the same level of adapting to your partners as in D1, and the lack of FF probably had a lot to do with it.
I was lucky to have played with some of the better D1 players out there, so I should not complain.
-A
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I absolutely agree, but I will say that playing with FF on in D2 can add some (not all) of that back in, if you're playing with the right team.

Combat was a lot sloppier in D2, though, FF or no. Even the terrain and mob size allowed for less precision. :(

[Fragbait]

That's why my favorite mage was always the rogue class!

For me, a good player was never about what they could accomplish, but about how they could go through the "little" parts of the game- if they used terrain well, were able to adapt to the monsters or layout of a level smoothly, and played cooperatively (also adapting to the characters they played with), then they were an excellent player.  Those aren't really things you could measure or that make good reports on Diablo forums, though.
[right][snapback]92886[/snapback][/right]

I'd have too agree here, absolutely.

Yet there is one thing left for me to say:

Even if one is 'good' in SP, that doesn't necessarily mean 'good' in MP.
I learned this the hard way when I dared to leave my safe cavern and try B.net what must have been almost a year ago. I just wasn't trained in coop play, standing all in the way and catching guardian fire of my buddy, etc. Took me some hours to adapt!

I also guess that the 'goodness' of a player can't be measured by any tests. It can at the utmost be experienced when playing with him. And then, still, Classic Diablo isn't about lightning-quick reactions and perfect aiming, it just ain't the type of game where you can judge a player by his physical 'goodness'. I'd rather call a 'good' player like this:

'Gee. He really knows the ropes...'


Greetings, Fragbait

[Nystul]

For me, a good player was never about what they could accomplish, but about how they could go through the "little" parts of the game- if they used terrain well, were able to adapt to the monsters or layout of a level smoothly, and played cooperatively (also adapting to the characters they played with), then they were an excellent player.  Those aren't really things you could measure or that make good reports on Diablo forums, though.
[right][snapback]92886[/snapback][/right]

The little things are what make the impossible possible, even if the reports rarely reflect it. The little things are why I've played like a thousand Ironman games, and only won the one game in which I was teamed with WildViking and Attika. They are why virtually anyone could finish 15 levels of a Barbarian King quest (in spite of it being incredibly tedious), but not many could do level 16. I often felt that some of the early variants and challenges (IM, BAR, ARC, VIK, IMH, etc.) were so keen in this regard. In simple terms, they removed the cheese factor from the game and forced the player to pay attention to positioning, enemy behavior, teamwork (when applicable) etc. Other variants, while fun in their own ways, missed the mark on this point, either by not being difficult at all or by relying soley on tedium to create difficulty. Who cares how many hours it takes to clear hell/hell if all you have to do is stonecurse each enemy? My goal with the Geezer was to create a mage equivalent to the ARC or VIK. While the variant actually played quite differently (and somewhat easier) than I expected, and turns out to be pretty unfriendly in coop situations, it still pretty much hit the mark on requiring attention to details rather than simple but slow play.

Of course, you can still see player skill with full powered characters doing a hell/hell clear, but it is purely a matter of style. Any one of the characters could easily clear the level in a short time by himself, and the cooperative tactics employed are less a matter of ideal teamwork and more a matter of not screwing each other up. The talent and experience shows, but the comfort level is high. An unusual combination of variants playing in an area over their heads makes for a much more dynamic experience. ;)