The Cat is Out of the Bag?

[nobbie]

Taking over this topic from the Amazon Basin:

Level 70 in the Expansion?

It looks though as if they (Blizzard?) had said passage on the title cover of the Italian mag blackened out already, but I think the news is valid nevertheless. The translation is/was:

"Blizzard astonishes all carrying us to the Seventieth Level"

Which consequences will a new level-cap at 70 have for WOW and its balancing? Speculate away :)

[Zippyy]

Taking over this topic from the Amazon Basin:

Level 70 in the Expansion?

It looks though as if they (Blizzard?) had said passage on the title cover of the Italian mag blackened out already, but I think the news is valid nevertheless. The translation is/was:

"Blizzard astonishes all carrying us to the Seventieth Level"

Which consequences will a new level-cap at 70 have for WOW and its balancing? Speculate away :)
[right][snapback]92366[/snapback][/right]

All end-game instances will suddenly become much easier, forcing Blizzard to introduce a slew of new instances to satiate our appetites.

It happened a thousand times in EQ. It's sad seeing the "top level" areas get reduced to ghetto instances that never see play because there is better loot out there. Here's to hoping this doesn't happen!

It's a tricky position. They have to keep adding new areas and new and better loot to keep the players interested. That is wonderful, but I will still sigh the day that our current bad-boy Nefarious sits atop a lonely Blackrock Mountain weeping because his loot isn't good enough to warrant anyone's attention.

Hopefully Blizzard can figure out a clever way of avoiding this. They seem to have managed so far, but it hasn't really been that long. Guilds started beating MC, and along comes BWL. Then comes ZG. One harder and one easier. I think ZG, MC, and BWL are enough to occupy most guilds for a very long time, and anything new at this point will only be novelty (like the four dragons).

If I had a point in all this, I lost it. Sorry :blush:

[nobbie]

Instead of increasing the level to 70 and start an inflation, I'd rather prefer much more and quality-wise much better solo content as well as new areas and changing areas (i.e. Felwood cleansed) that carry on the story, which I'm still missing.

[Zippyy]

Instead of increasing the level to 70 and start an inflation, I'd rather prefer much more and quality-wise much better solo content as well as new areas and changing areas (i.e. Felwood cleansed) that carry on the story, which I'm still missing.
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Some solo content would be fantastic. Especially if the drops/rewards were on par with some of the end-game instance items, or slightly lower.

In my experience, all the soloing I do at 60 is grinding, especially for shards. :(

It would be nice if Felwood were finally cleansed. I'd also like to see Winterspring melt.

[Sir_Die_alot]

All end-game instances will suddenly become much easier, forcing Blizzard to introduce a slew of new instances to satiate our appetites.

It happened a thousand times in EQ.  It's sad seeing the "top level" areas get reduced to ghetto instances that never see play because there is better loot out there.  Here's to hoping this doesn't happen!

All they have to do is increase loot and difficulty in already exsisting ones. That said, I hope they make getting to 70 very VERY difficult, like pre-expansion diablo 2 level 99 difficult. That would keep people coming back for more and if you didn't get any useable/sellable loot on a run through somewhere it won't feel like a total waste.

[TheLuminaire]

All they have to do is increase loot and difficulty in already exsisting ones. That said, I hope they make getting to 70 very VERY difficult, like pre-expansion diablo 2 level 99 difficult. That would keep people coming back for more and if you didn't get any useable/sellable loot on a run through somewhere it won't feel like a total waste.
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Agreed. It took people years to get to 99; I can still remember when the first guy on USWest did it. It was a huge accomplishment. I really can't stand the idea of increasing the level cap, but if they had to, I better not see level-capped people again for quite some time.

[Kevin]

Agreed.  It took people years to get to 99; I can still remember when the first guy on USWest did it.  It was a huge accomplishment.  I really can't stand the idea of increasing the level cap, but if they had to, I better not see level-capped people again for quite some time.
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I agree there too. They took away the best feeder bar at L60. :) Items and new content only push the feeder bar so much. So if you up the cap let current leveling speed happen to about L63, then start slowing it down. 63 to 64 twice as long as it would at current leveling pace. 64-65 4times; 65-66 8 times; 66-67 16 times; 67-68 32 times; 68-69 64 times; 69-170 128 times.

Probably slower than that. What would that be? Right now 59-60 takes about 8 hours I think (depends on how many quests you turn in), so I would think 60-61 is would be about 10 at current leveling speeds. 12 to 20 for 62 and 63. So you would hit 63 in about 40-50 hours. 20 hours for 64, 40 for 65, 80 for 66, 160 for 67, 320 for 68, 640 for 69 and 1280 for 70. 2570 hours 107 days or about a year and a half at 5 hours a day average (which is what a lot of the hardcore people are doing if not more than that). Regardless a year and half to hit the cap with most of that time spent on the last 2 levels sounds good to me. You still let casuals get up high enough to help trivialize some of the current content by getting 5 to 6 more levels. Maybe it would be better to start the slowing process quicker and change the slope of it, but I like the year and half to get to the new cap idea if they put a new cap in as long as there is new content that is a challenge for people that are 66-68. That will still let your alt maniacs have their alts being productive, they should be getting some exp while doing resource and item grinds as well. Hmmm you would hit 62 or 63 just finishing your tier 1 set and getting your draconian deflector. Maybe that isn't the best way to do it....

I don't want it to be a total grind fest for all of it, but the current leveling speed is too fast. Heck I've almost got 4 capped characters right now and it hasn't even been a year and one of those capped toons does have a large play time that compares to some peoples play time on their mains. I love that I can take that many to the cap and see end game with them but I also don't feel like I'm progressing them that much just by items. I know they are more powerful with better items but that isn't the core character to me. That's just the shell. :)

I have to think more about it.

[nobbie]

Probably slower than that.  What would that be?  Right now 59-60 takes about 8 hours I think (depends on how many quests you turn in)

The WOW experience bar has 20 units, and from my experience, it takes about 25-30 minutes per unit after character level (clvl) 50 if you don't do any quests and if the monsters you're grinding are between clvl-4 and clvl+2. You also need a short break every hour or two, so that it takes somewhere between 10-12 hours of constant grinding to make one level-up after clvl 50.
If the WOW expansion actually introduces 10 additional levels up to clvl 70, these should be some sort of "master/hero levels" that take about 100-120 hours per level, and that ANY expansion item, incl. greens and blues, that has a level requirement of 61+ is soulbound.

[Adairan]

Would make for some interesting Respeccing in talents thats for sure. I personall would love to see new ranks of fun talents to offset the 10 extra talent points.

Tho would be uber fun having 0/31/30 as a druid :P NS + All the uber Feral stuff is kind of like the difference between a dump truck and a semi heh.

[savaughn]

The WOW experience bar has 20 units, and from my experience, it takes about 25-30 minutes per unit after character level (clvl) 50 if you don't do any quests and if the monsters you're grinding are between clvl-4 and clvl+2. You also need a short break every hour or two, so that it takes somewhere between 10-12 hours of constant grinding to make one level-up after clvl 50.
If the WOW expansion actually introduces 10 additional levels up to clvl 70, these should be some sort of "master/hero levels" that take about 100-120 hours per level, and that ANY expansion item, incl. greens and blues, that has a level requirement of 61+ is soulbound.
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I don't think you can make any kind of generalization like this. If you're sitting with full rest state, working with the right character combinations, and fighting against the right mobs you can eat through exp like no one's business. When you're out of rest state, fighting the wrong mobs with the wrong character combinations, you can play all day and go nowhere.

For example, I can say with absolute certainty that if you have two hunters and a druid and you are killing elites in Winterspring, you can get from level 59 to 60 in just under three hours if you have some rest state going into it.

[nobbie]

I don't think you can make any kind of generalization like this.  If you're sitting with full rest state, working with the right character combinations, and fighting against the right mobs you can eat through exp like no one's business.  When you're out of rest state, fighting the wrong mobs with the wrong character combinations, you can play all day and go nowhere.

For example, I can say with absolute certainty that if you have two hunters and a druid and you are killing elites in Winterspring, you can get from level 59 to 60 in just under three hours if you have some rest state going into it.
[right][snapback]92393[/snapback][/right]

Yes, but I was talking about grinding normal mobs solo without any rested bonus :)

[Artega]

Would make for some interesting Respeccing in talents thats for sure. I personall would love to see new ranks of fun talents to offset the 10 extra talent points.

Tho would be uber fun having 0/31/30 as a druid :P NS + All the uber Feral stuff is kind of like the difference between a dump truck and a semi heh.
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We had the fun of having 52 talent points for a day. Sweeping Strikes + Improved Cleave + Death Wish + Enrage = concentrated pain.

I'd rather they either not give us more talent points (instead perhaps more significant stat increases, so instead of the +1 or +2 to a few stats, maybe +6 or +7 to all or something along those lines) or add another two tiers to all trees to compensate; you could do 31/30 builds, or you could go for 41/20 or something like that.

[Rinnhart]

Raising the level cap is always a bad idea.

Alternate Advancement was EQ's saving grace. I'd rather see something like it in WoW than a higher level cap.

[Concillian]

"Blizzard astonishes all carrying us to the Seventieth Level"

Which consequences will a new level-cap at 70 have for WOW and its balancing? Speculate away :)
[right][snapback]92366[/snapback][/right]

I think the largest concern is the abilities of melee players are significantly more improved from the extra talent points than casters, further pushing the divide between casters and melee types beyond what many say is already a signficant problem.

Thonk of this. A melee type deals ONE type of damage... physical. Talents 'synergize' naturally to increase that one type of damage.

Warriors with 10 extra points get Flurry, deathwish, and mortal strike... ouch.
Rogues could get Seal Fate and adrenaline rush or any number of pretty deadly combinations really (dagger specialization + seal fate + improved ambush is another).

Frost mages still have their Ice tree pretty much maxed out in utility. They'll get a few spell upgrades from the levels, but not much in terms of synergy. Sure they could add talents in another tree, but that doesn't work in the same way as in the melee classes, it gives more options, but not necessarily more DPS synergy.

Warlocks are fairly similar, they wouldn't really get anything major. Shadow priests would get a bump going 30 into discipline too (+5% dam and +5% crit to damage spells). Healing priest would get some good bumps, but as with healing in general, those bumps seem kind of small. Certainly nothing to the extent that would be necessary to overcome the extra damage the talents of the melee types provide.

I expect Blizzard will need to do more than simply change the level cap. Itemization changes and/or significant talent tree re-work will need to happen as well for balance to be at least as good as it is now. Given that it took almost a year to get where we are now, I wouldn't expect this to be the case on release.

[Lissa]

Taking over this topic from the Amazon Basin:

Level 70 in the Expansion?

It looks though as if they (Blizzard?) had said passage on the title cover of the Italian mag blackened out already, but I think the news is valid nevertheless. The translation is/was:

"Blizzard astonishes all carrying us to the Seventieth Level"

Which consequences will a new level-cap at 70 have for WOW and its balancing? Speculate away :)
[right][snapback]92366[/snapback][/right]

Or those 10 additional levels could come from Hero levels which means you get entirely new talents that don't even hit the original 3 trees for each class.

[Zarathustra]

We had the fun of having 52 talent points for a day.  Sweeping Strikes + Improved Cleave + Death Wish + Enrage = concentrated pain.

I'd rather they either not give us more talent points (instead perhaps more significant stat increases, so instead of the +1 or +2 to a few stats, maybe +6 or +7 to all or something along those lines) or add another two tiers to all trees to compensate; you could do 31/30 builds, or you could go for 41/20 or something like that.
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I'm with Artega's former option. I hope they do not allow extra talent point. If anything, add an "epic" ("hero"?) talent TREE to put points into, which would augment the previous talents.

[Concillian]

Yes, but I was talking about grinding normal mobs solo without any rested bonus :)
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It depends on the class too. In full grind mode, I pushed 58-->59 out in about 3.5 hours with my rogue. Yes that included a full bar of rest bonus, but that would be 7 hours in non-rest bonus mode.

I found quests were about the same as grinding in that the travel time was ~equal to the grinding EXP, but it allowed you to go back and sell some of your junk and repair.

Warlock and priest are signficantly slower than this, and warrior is somewhere in between.

[MongoJerry]

That said, I hope they make getting to 70 very VERY difficult, like pre-expansion diablo 2 level 99 difficult. That would keep people coming back for more and if you didn't get any useable/sellable loot on a run through somewhere it won't feel like a total waste.

I disagree. I like WoW's approach in making leveling quick and easy and not focusing so much on having an arbitrary designation of "level" be so important in the end game. I like that once you reach level 60 and start your second phase of life, the choice in possibilities for advancement are much more open and varied. At level 60, your power increases with your items, and in order to get those items, you can't simply grind the same mobs repeatedly. To piece together a good outfit, you first have to adventure in many different 5-man and 10-man instances to get your good blues and maybe do a few quests that give good rewards. Then, you need to kill different major raid bosses with an organized group repeatedly to piece together your epic outfit. Zul'Gurub is a nice in between zone for those who want some intermediate items (and a few end game items), too. Some craftable items involving pita ingredients to get can be used, too. At the same time, there's also reputation with various groups to work on to piece together a few more items or highly sought after enchantments. I think this system is far better than some Diablo II leveling system, where it's simply a matter of who grinds the same mobs solo repeatedly for the longest. I hope that if level 70 does happen with the expansion (and some level cap raise probably will happen because of the potential splashiness of the announcement), Blizzard will keep to the current WoW approach to leveling and make the process happen quickly and painlessly.

[nobbie]

Or those 10 additional levels could come from Hero levels which means you get entirely new talents that don't even hit the original 3 trees for each class.
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What I would like to see as 10 new talent points in the expansion for the Druid are a sort of "synergy points" that create a connection between the 3 existing trees, so that, for example, the Druid can heal in Bear, Cat or Moonkin form. That would be a really great addition for a Druid "hero class". Also great would be a talent that allows you to learn the language(s) of the opposing faction.

[savaughn]

I disagree.  I like WoW's approach in making leveling quick and easy and not focusing so much on having an arbitrary designation of "level" be so important in the end game.  I like that once you reach level 60 and start your second phase of life, the choice in possibilities for advancement are much more open and varied.  At level 60, your power increases with your items, and in order to get those items, you can't simply grind the same mobs repeatedly.  To piece together a good outfit, you first have to adventure in many different 5-man and 10-man instances to get your good blues and maybe do a few quests that give good rewards.  Then, you need to kill different major raid bosses with an organized group repeatedly to piece together your epic outfit.  Zul'Gurub is a nice in between zone for those who want some intermediate items (and a few end game items), too.  Some craftable items involving pita ingredients to get can be used, too.  At the same time, there's also reputation with various groups to work on to piece together a few more items or highly sought after enchantments.  I think this system is far better than some Diablo II leveling system, where it's simply a matter of who grinds the same mobs solo repeatedly for the longest.  I hope that if level 70 does happen with the expansion (and some level cap raise probably will happen because of the potential splashiness of the announcement), Blizzard will keep to the current WoW approach to leveling and make the process happen quickly and painlessly.
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Mongo - do me a favor. Deguild yourself so that you aren't in an elite end game raid guild capable of doing all of the instances... you know, so that you match 90% of the other WoW players... and tell me how fun the post 60 game is.

I've brought up a number of players either in small guilds or with no guild at all because I kept hearing a lot of complaints about the end game. It's really all the difference in the world. On several servers, there are only 2-4 guilds even capable of 40-man instances and of the ones I've seen, the bulk of them are closed for membership. This creates a bizarre and tragic dichotomy. Either you're in a guild that has regular scheduled raids and you are wearing almost all purples or you are trapped in blues with no conceivable way of advancing.

You just have to read these forums to see that we even have Lurkers living on both sides of that very high imposing wall. It's amusing to me that on one server that I play on, I can raid any day of the week and on another - despite being a highly skilled, friendly player who's actually killed those bosses - I've only seen the inside of Molten Core in pick up raids that have never gotten more than 40 feet inside the door. Funny ol' world, innit?