Thinking of Respec for Garrin

[Garrin]

says it all in the heading. I'm thinking of respeccing garrin to either holy or protection, we just have way too many ret pali's in the end game right now, and it could help the whole team if a few of us converted. Plus in pvp i'm hardly ever actually engaging the enemy, just followin around a warrior keepin him alive.

So what are some good holy or protection builds? Thoughts?

[Skandranon]

says it all in the heading.  I'm thinking of respeccing garrin to either holy or protection, we just have way too many ret pali's in the end game right now, and it could help the whole team if a few of us converted.  Plus in pvp i'm hardly ever actually engaging the enemy, just followin around a warrior keepin him alive. 

So what are some good holy or protection builds?  Thoughts?
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In general, there's no such thing as a "holy build" because the late talents in holy are absolute junk. Sanctity, Divine Strength, and Holy Shock are all kind of weak, as is Improved Seal of Light. Repentance is somewhat weak too, meaning that there aren't really heavy protection builds either.

Paladin builds are either 31 retribution with a minor in either prot or holy, or some protection/holy variant. Since you seem to want to get out of retribution, you're basically looking to spec into something prot/holy.

Which prot/holy build you pick depends on how often you PvP/solo/raid. Which of these things are you doing more? If you PvP a lot, yeah, heavy protection builds with Reckoning and Repentance make sense. If you solo a lot, you're going to find prot/holy really hard to deal with, but you should probably pick up Holy Shield and Reckoning. If you raid a lot, you'll be speccing into a fairly focused build that may skip some solo utility skills.

Here's a raiding prot/holy spec that maximizes the paladin's healing role along with picking up Improved Blessing of Salvation for DPS types.

Holy: 24
5 Spiritual Focus
3 Improved Holy Light
5 Illumination
1 Divine Favor
5 Improved Blessing of Wisdom
5 Divine Wisdom

Protection: 27
5 Improved Devotion Aura
5 Toughness
2 Improved Blessing of Protection
5 Improved Seal of Fury
1 Blessing of Sanctuary
2 Shield Specialization
5 Reckoning
2 Improved Blessing of Salvation

Now, it's important that someone have IBoS in a raid, if only because fights will sometimes last longer than 5 minutes and not having to rebless mid-fight is a huge advantage. If there already are enough paladins with IBoS, however, there's a three-tree build which retains some soloing power as well as good healing.

Holy: 24
5 Spiritual Focus
3 Improved Holy Light
5 Illumination
1 Divine Favor
5 Improved Blessing of Wisdom
5 Divine Wisdom

Protection: 16
5 Redoubt
5 Toughness
1 Blessing of Sanctuary
5 Improved Seal of Fury (or 2 IBoP and 3 here or Shield Specialization)

Retribution: 11
5 Improved Blessing of Might
5 Two-handed Weapon Specialization
1 Seal of Command

The paladin review in 1.9 should make the talent trees a lot more compelling, but until then, here are a couple of decent options.

[Artega]

I'll be making a Pally on Destromath soon to play with some RL friends, and I'm going to pattern him after the ONLY Pally that has ever beaten me in a series of three duels that was wearing gear equivalent to mine (e.g. Strat/Scholo/BRS/DM blues.) He told he's 21/30 Ret/Holy, but won't tell the exact talents. I can get some pretty good guesses to what his Ret points are in (simply from watching the combat logs), but for Holy, I'm really just going on guesswork and what I'd use if I were him (and kinda will be before too long.)

Here's what I'm thinking his build is:

Retribution Talents - 21 points

5/5 Benediction
5/5 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization
5/5 Vengeance
1/1 Seal of Command
4/5 Deflection
1/1 Consecration

Holy Talents - 30 points

5/5 Spiritual Focus
3/3 Improved Holy Light
1/2 Revelation
5/5 Illumination
5/5 Improved Blessing of Wisdom
1/1 Divine Favor
5/5 Divine Wisdom
5/5 Divine Strength

[Rinnhart]

says it all in the heading.  I'm thinking of respeccing garrin to either holy or protection, we just have way too many ret pali's in the end game right now, and it could help the whole team if a few of us converted.  Plus in pvp i'm hardly ever actually engaging the enemy, just followin around a warrior keepin him alive. 

So what are some good holy or protection builds?  Thoughts?
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A good protection build to first consider:

Protection PvP

From that, for a more raid centric build I'd drop a couple points from iBoFreedom and put them in iBoSalvation. Your guild will love you.

If you don't care about PvP at all; drop more from protection, and everything from retribution, and go for Illumination, Divine Favor, and Divine wisdom.

Honestly, I've played with everything and I've raided with everything and about the only thing you can do to really change your raid game is get improved blessing of salvation. Divine Favor's almost a waste for a raider as it requires some amount of anticipation. Illumination's a gimmick and Divine Wisdom is +10% on nothing, we can spam Flash of Light all day without either (improved flash of light is a total waste- Improved Holy Light is at least a tangible change, I did miss it a bit when I was deep retribution).

Behold the marvels of the Paladin talent trees.

Keep in mind we're supposed to see changes next patch (read- after the new year).

[Kevin]

A good protection build to first consider:

Protection PvP

From that, for a more raid centric build I'd drop a couple points from iBoFreedom and put them in iBoSalvation. Your guild will love you.

If you don't care about PvP at all; drop more from protection, and everything from retribution, and go for Illumination, Divine Favor, and Divine wisdom.

Honestly, I've played with everything and I've raided with everything and about the only thing you can do to really change your raid game is get improved blessing of salvation. Divine Favor's almost a waste for a raider as it requires some amount of anticipation. Illumination's a gimmick and Divine Wisdom is +10% on nothing, we can spam Flash of Light all day without either (improved flash of light is a total waste- Improved Holy Light is at least a tangible change, I did miss it a bit when I was deep retribution).

Behold the marvels of the Paladin talent trees.

Keep in mind we're supposed to see changes next patch (read- after the new year).
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If you go with that build and want more raid utility you might as well get Blessing of Salvation as well. I know it isn't much but I also think I remember all the blessings that all the other paladins Garrin raids with and that isn't a common blessing though it never hurts to have it after all the other blessings. Though since I still don't PvP much alliance side I might not realize the value of improved blessing of freedom. I know it isn't of much value at all in PvE so I don't have a problem taking points out of it.

As for Divine Favor, I wouldn't drop it. If nothing else it gives you a mana free heal, even if that is mostly over heal. I still mostly use Holy Light when healing in a raid (and 5 man for that matter) and still rarely use Flash of Light so divine favor helps with that by expanding the mana pool a little and maybe getting me some more healing, though likely more overhealing than anything in a raid.

Of course since Balador is mainly a solo PvE paladin I'm a holy/retribution.

[Concillian]

Though since I still don't PvP much alliance side I might not realize the value of improved blessing of freedom.  I know it isn't of much value at all in PvE so I don't have a problem taking points out of it.
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I don't play PvP alliance side, but playing priest and shaman, as soon as I see a BoFreedom, it gets dispelled/purged immediately. There are enough shaman that it should get dispelled quickly, but reality is that it does have some use, because not all shaman recognize the utility of Purge, and sometimes you are in a situation to use it when shaman aren't around.

However, that use is primarily in Warsong Gulch, which is somewhat dead these days.

[Rinnhart]

I don't play PvP alliance side, but playing priest and shaman, as soon as I see a BoFreedom, it gets dispelled/purged immediately.  There are enough shaman that it should get dispelled quickly, but reality is that it does have some use, because not all shaman recognize the utility of Purge, and sometimes you are in a situation to use it when shaman aren't around.

However, that use is primarily in Warsong Gulch, which is somewhat dead these days.
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The only time it's really useful is against warriors or hunters, neither of who can dispell it themselves. We can cleanse everything else. If you've got a shaman or priest on you in addition to the warrior or hunter, you've got bigger problems than being snared.

[Artega]

The only time it's really useful is against warriors or hunters, neither of who can dispell it themselves. We can cleanse everything else. If you've got a shaman or priest on you in addition to the warrior or hunter, you've got bigger problems than being snared.
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Somewhat pointless against Warriors. We kill you all just fine regardless if you dispel our Hamstring :)

[savaughn]

So what are some good holy or protection builds?  Thoughts?
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Just the one big neon thought:

Wait.

The entire Holy and Protection talent trees are being rewritten as we speak. They should be infinitely more exciting in, say, 3-4 weeks as we start to see the 1.9 patch information come out. The patch is unlikely to go live until the end of November/early December but I think it will be worth the wait. I can say without hesitation that I'm very much hoping to have something other than a Ret Spec pally post 1.9. I've never liked the idea of using a 2-handed weapon with my pally and would be MUCH happier either turtling down into serious tank mode with a 1h+shield or actually acting as a viable healer.

We shall see...

[Rinnhart]

Somewhat pointless against Warriors.  We kill you all just fine regardless if you dispel our Hamstring :)
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Hahah, haven't lost to a warrior, one on one, in ages. I really do love you guys, though, you just keep trying to kill me instead of doing something useful like going for the flag.

[Rinnhart]

Just the one big neon thought:

Wait.

The entire Holy and Protection talent trees are being rewritten as we speak.  They should be infinitely more exciting in, say, 3-4 weeks as we start to see the 1.9 patch information come out.  The patch is unlikely to go live until the end of November/early December but I think it will be worth the wait.  I can say without hesitation that I'm very much hoping to have something other than a Ret Spec pally post 1.9.  I've never liked the idea of using a 2-handed weapon with my pally and would be MUCH happier either turtling down into serious tank mode with a 1h+shield or actually acting as a viable healer.

We shall see...
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Unless they really change the class (Which they've already said they won't do by stating no changes will occur in the base abilities, only the talents), sword and board will still be limited in usefulness.

[Artega]

Hahah, haven't lost to a warrior, one on one, in ages. I really do love you guys, though, you just keep trying to kill me instead of doing something useful like going for the flag.
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Hehe, I never bother with BGs. I go farm Gnolls in AV for Frostwolf rep, but that's about it :)

[Artega]

Unless they really change the class (Which they've already said they won't do by stating no changes will occur in the base abilities, only the talents), sword and board will still be limited in usefulness.
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I think switching the effects of Improved Holy Light and Improved Flash of Light (making Holy Light cheaper and Flash of Light more powerful) would go a pretty long way towards making Pallies better healers.

[savaughn]

Unless they really change the class (Which they've already said they won't do by stating no changes will occur in the base abilities, only the talents), sword and board will still be limited in usefulness.
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I can't even begin to imagine how they could possibly fix the protection tree and not make sword and shield useful.

If nothing else, if they fix the holy tree I can do a Flurry Axe+shield and use judgement of wisdom to keep me healing.

[Zarathustra]

A question for the Paladin players, while we're on the topic. I've got a Paladin alt who just hit level 19, so he's got a ways to go before the higher talents are available. But is there a viable way to go with the high-tier Holy talents and capitalize on holy damage?

I was thinking of a Holy/Retribution mix using the Sanctity aura to enhance the damage. Any thoughts?

[Artega]

A question for the Paladin players, while we're on the topic.  I've got a Paladin alt who just hit level 19, so he's got a ways to go before the higher talents are available.  But is there a viable way to go with the high-tier Holy talents and capitalize on holy damage?

I was thinking of a Holy/Retribution mix using the Sanctity aura to enhance the damage.  Any thoughts?
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The main question, I think, is whether to take Holy Shock or Consecration. I'd lean towards Shock since Consecration is largely useless in PvP, though I'd take Consecration if you were a PvE player.

I've been contemplating a Holy/Protection build, playing as a buffbot for my friends.

[Rinnhart]

A question for the Paladin players, while we're on the topic.  I've got a Paladin alt who just hit level 19, so he's got a ways to go before the higher talents are available.  But is there a viable way to go with the high-tier Holy talents and capitalize on holy damage?

I was thinking of a Holy/Retribution mix using the Sanctity aura to enhance the damage.  Any thoughts?
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Define what you think of as viable.

Will you be able to play effectively? Sure. I was holy spec until 60.

However, look at it like this. Sanctity will add, essentially, 37 damage to an average, base damage holy shock, 6 damage to a righteousness proc, and maybe 100 damage to a good command crit with a reasonable weapon.

Or, you can have Retribution aura on and deal 20 damage when you're hit in melee. That's not when you proc; that's every time you're hit. Or have 8% more mitigation when you're swinging a two hander, with devotion. Or 60% more of a resist.

10% holy damage really isn't much.

And holy shock is a horrible thing. It looks good, and the utility of a ranged attack is nice, but the efficiency is so terrible and even the range is short, and on top of all of that it's once every 30 seconds. That's 12dps if you chain it. It's not burst damage, it's an insult and a joke. It is the single worst 31 point talent in the game.

[Rinnhart]

The main question, I think, is whether to take Holy Shock or Consecration.  I'd lean towards Shock since Consecration is largely useless in PvP, though I'd take Consecration if you were a PvE player.

I've been contemplating a Holy/Protection build, playing as a buffbot for my friends.
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Having either in a PvP situation means you're short repentance- which is a mistake if you're really serious about PvP.

Consecration is definately best for dedicated PvE.

[Rinnhart]

I can't even begin to imagine how they could possibly fix the protection tree and not make sword and shield useful.

If nothing else, if they fix the holy tree I can do a Flurry Axe+shield and use judgement of wisdom to keep me healing.
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Protection's our best tree. I wouldn't mind it being beefed up, but besides offering little beyond repentance for anti-caster, it's not bad.