GEM vs Guilded Raider

[Quark]

Considering at the time of the Onyxia raid there was only 3 of use with GEM up and going, I doubt that it had any real contribution to the chat traffic.
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Simple fact is that I wasn't getting DC'd before I installed GEM, and was after. Other chat communication mods I had were all running for at least a week, no problems

[Ruvanal]

Simple fact is that I wasn't getting DC'd before I installed GEM, and was after.  Other chat communication mods I had were all running for at least a week, no problems
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But how many were using GuildedDKP mod prior to that night? Most were not aware that it was even out there a week before that. I know that for myself it was the first and only night that I used it. When I saw how much chat spam it was having you generate to send to others, I knew it was likely to be a problem. Just having something installed and barely used will not give you an indication of how it will behave when it is actually put under a serious load. Effectively that was likely the first time that mod had been put under a serious load for you since yours was the client that was going to need to keep sending extra chat traffic out to others.

That is why I want to see GEM under a load on non-critical time period (i.e. MC/Onyxia/BWL raid session). Not end up waiting till there is something important going on and then finding that under a heavy load it can cause a breakdown to occur. That is what happened with the Guilded v0.11 with the trade information being used. Looked fine when there were only about 6-10 people on at time using it, but when we got to a MC raid session going and some players not in the raid were switching out characters, that action started spamming us into lock-ups.

[Darian]

But how many were using GuildedDKP mod prior to that night?  Most were not aware that it was even out there a week before that.  I know that for myself it was the first and only night that I used it.  When I saw how much chat spam it was having you generate to send to others, I knew it was likely to be a problem.
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Okay, so the problem with GuildedDKP is only going to show up for the person who has currently claimed Master status via GetDKP, as we're issued a request from every person who logs in using GuildedDKP to broadcast the point list to them. (If Quark is master, I don't get the request, he does. If I'm master, the reverse.)

Here's the thing: I also run both mods, and I've never noted a performance hit of any kind -- not even during raids where I have claimed Master status by virtue of logging in after Quark. However, I have NOT been running GEM, while Quark has been.

QED.

[Kevin]

Okay, so the problem with GuildedDKP is only going to show up for the person who has currently claimed Master status via GetDKP, as we're issued a request from every person who logs in using GuildedDKP to broadcast the point list to them.  (If Quark is master, I don't get the request, he does.  If I'm master, the reverse.)

Here's the thing: I also run both mods, and I've never noted a performance hit of any kind -- not even during raids where I have claimed Master status by virtue of logging in after Quark.  However, I have NOT been running GEM, while Quark has been.

QED.
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I'm running GEM and it's basically guilded with an event manager. It could be used to replace guilded as it has the same player list and chat channel functionality.

I'm not willing to point the finger at GEM (though if the issues were happening when there was a password on the channel I might because very bad things can happen with mods and channel passwords).

[Ruvanal]

Okay, so the problem with GuildedDKP is only going to show up for the person who has currently claimed Master status via GetDKP, as we're issued a request from every person who logs in using GuildedDKP to broadcast the point list to them.  (If Quark is master, I don't get the request, he does.  If I'm master, the reverse.)

Here's the thing: I also run both mods, and I've never noted a performance hit of any kind -- not even during raids where I have claimed Master status by virtue of logging in after Quark.  However, I have NOT been running GEM, while Quark has been.

QED.
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Sorry but that is a painfully weak argument with what you have presented and I would have expected much better from you. You are appear to be working on many assumptions from my perspective.

Do you and Quark have the same types of computers to be playing off of? Same types of mainboards, processors, RAM, HDD data storage? Are you both running the smae operating system with the same background programs outside of WoW? Somehow I really doubt this point.

Do you run the exact same suite of mods on all levels except for the use of GEM? Somehow I doubt this too since Quark has been rather active mostly only on a different mix of characters than I have noted for you. For example to finally fix why my system was not able to get the wardrobe screen to open off of chat links (any channel) I ended up tracking the problem to the mod Enchantrix which is for tracking what magic items get disenchanted into. Not something that would in any obvious way cause problems with the use of a chat system. So there can be other things working in Quarks host of mods that is making it more unstable for him to have something like GuildedDKP running.

On the Master status of the the GuildedDKP are you sure you have been put to the same stress of requests that Quark has. I have no census of who is using it to get requests from you or Quark. It did not sound like there was even a message so that you would know that someone was actually polling you at the time. If you came in after Quark and he was having problems, could it not be that those that wanted the information had not already gotten it from him. I doubt from what I saw of the GuildedDKP in use, that a single request from anyone would likely cause any noticeable problems for any master that was on a halfway decent computer. But if it does not use a good method to act as a traffic cop for outgoing data, then if several users opt to request data at the same time then there could be problems. Like when players start fidgeting around after the warders and before the main Onyxia attack while the party is starting to buff up and wait while a last few straglers get there.

On the other hand I have been looking at the type of chat traffic that GEM has been generating and how much it is depending on it. Most of what it does is the same as Guilded, but so far appears to be getting called on a lot less. Main difference in what it does transmit in chat is the data that is hidden by the code for what to do with the data and that is to be expected since it is supplying a different type of information. When it does load at start it sends out a message that is essentially a "Hi, I am here" which is about the same as Guilded. Generally after that exachange and any tells that are sent to update the events, the only time that a player sends any message is if they are changing a zone boundry, again same as Guilded. Other that that it has just hung back waiting for any new events in that channel. From what I can see compared to Guilded that is the same types of communication signals and generally a lot quiter than all the other spam that is circulating on the Guilded channel with all the various mods that at times are sending a variety of messages out on an all to frequent basis.

If you want to do something that I would consider worthy of a Q.E.D. closure on your post, then do a set of controlled tests on the matter. Things like several players all spamming Quark for DKP info while he has GEM installed and when he does not. Do the same set of test in the same manner against your system too. Get some real comparative data to use that helps eliminate the differences that are likely there between your hardware and software on your systems.

[Darian]

On the Master status of the the GuildedDKP are you sure you have been put to the same stress of requests that Quark has.[right][snapback]94018[/snapback][/right]

On this question, I am absolutely certain. I have logged in after Quark -- thus taking over the Master control -- prior to raids I lead, on more than one occasion. There is almost no time when Guilded is more "stressed" by players logging in to the game than the half-hour before a raid, and I've managed the process of automatically broadcasting GuDKP data to everyone who has GuDKP installed without any system interruption.

It did not sound like there was even a message so that you would know that someone was actually polling you at the time.

We're polled whenever someone logs in and is using the add-on.

If you came in after Quark and he was having problems, could it not be that those that wanted the information had not already gotten it from him.

That would be valid in most cases. However, as I mention above, I've been Master during some of our highest load login periods, and when someone logs in they do not already have the information, by default.

I doubt from what I saw of the GuildedDKP in use, that a single request from anyone would likely cause any noticeable problems for any master that was on a halfway decent computer.  But if it does not use a good method to act as a traffic cop for outgoing data, then if several users opt to request data at the same time then there could be problems.  Like when players start fidgeting around after the warders and before the main Onyxia attack while the party is starting to buff up and wait while a last few straglers get there.

Here's the thing -- and here, I have to admit being uncertain as I obviously don't interact with GuDKP as a client, ever: there shouldn't be any way for people to manually request that data, and if there is, we should immediately hack the addon and remove it. There's no reason whatsoever for anyone to manually request a DKP update anyway, because the numbers aren't going to change dynamically; Quark or I would have to exit the game and run GetDKP again in order to get new numbers, after which we'd automatically re-broadcast the updated data on login. Quark shouldn't be getting hit by any requests outside of those parameters, and if there's a way for a non-GetDKP user to make a request outside of logging in (or perhaps re-loading their UI), then it's definitely a Stupid Code Problem.

...From what I can see compared to Guilded that is the same types of communication signals and generally a lot quiter than all the other spam that is circulating on the Guilded channel with all the various mods that at times are sending a variety of messages out on an all to frequent basis.

Most of which was GPT, which even I decided to finally remove.

The reason for the QED was more this: my job is to troubleshoot these kind of things. When System A has X and Y, and System B has X, Y, and Z, and System B has the problem whereas System A does not... you exhaust all possibility of there being a problem with Z before wasting your time investigating whether System A is more capable of running X and Y than System B is, because 99 times out of 100 the problem is with Z.

[Ruvanal]

Here's the thing -- and here, I have to admit being uncertain as I obviously don't interact with GuDKP as a client, ever: there shouldn't be any way for people to manually request that data, and if there is, we should immediately hack the addon and remove it.  There's no reason whatsoever for anyone to manually request a DKP update anyway, because the numbers aren't going to change dynamically; Quark or I would have to exit the game and run GetDKP again in order to get new numbers, after which we'd automatically re-broadcast the updated data on login.  Quark shouldn't be getting hit by any requests outside of those parameters, and if there's a way for a non-GetDKP user to make a request outside of logging in (or perhaps re-loading their UI), then it's definitely a Stupid Code Problem.
Most of which was GPT, which even I decided to finally remove.

Well then you need to see the mod from the client perspective without any data already in your system. The one time I did use the GuildedDKP, there was no auto detection of masters or downloading of data. That had to be done manually with a request to interface to find and get a master; at which point I was spammed with data from Quark as I indicated in one of my earlier posts. This is also what Keltor was mentioning in the quote I put in the earlier post also. When hitting that button, it will then search out and get data from a master. There does not seem to be away around this as the program does not appear to function in the mode of actually doing an auto search all the time. A later post from Keltor seems to be pointing to more of what appears to be occuring with some masters.

11/04/2005 - 03:02:22 PM
Keltor


Spam it seems to be that the server(oder the client) kicks me out of game cause if 40 people are in the channael i send a GDKP message for each player in the DKP list and to each player in the channel

so if i have 50 player in the dkp list and 40 player in the channel i send 50*40 messages O_o

does anyone have the same problem?

Note that with the way Guilded filters the messages being sent its way, if it does not contain a header code that it recognises, it will discard that message without showing andit to the reciever. So those with out the modules to handle that code (or be looking for an active update code with a more current time stamp) will not normally see that they have been sent a message. It appears that GuildedDKP is working in a way much different than you seem to think it does. And in ways that it should not be working in my opinion either. Personally I perfer what Quark was wanting to do in that he just disables its communication both ways and just keeps the mod for its better in game interface UI of the data.

The reason for the QED was more this: my job is to troubleshoot these kind of things.  When System A has X and Y, and System B has X, Y, and Z, and System B has the problem whereas System A does not... you exhaust all possibility of there being a problem with Z before wasting your time investigating whether System A is more capable of running X and Y than System B is, because 99 times out of 100 the problem is with Z.
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Yes, and agin you are making one the assumptions again. You are assuming that Z is just a one item difference when in this case it could be multiple mods that are different. I also gave an example of one mod that was interferring with some chat functions in the game even though it was one that would not normally be viewed as hooking into a doing a disruption of the chat itself. I also listed one of the best ways to have that situation to test that there really is only one item in the 'Z' catagory; start with Quark getting disconnected under a controlled type of situation and then again under the same type of control with only the one mod (GEM) removed to see the difference.

And I too have had plenty of experience at having to trouble shoot systems. Its great when you have multiple systems that are fairly generic and usually only have some minor software differences. But when you start getting into having differences in the hardware and software, it can be a major pain to be sure that problem really is just a difference in one newly added item of software. Often that new software was not really at fault, it was usually an older software that was not properly coded in the first place and had some sloppy holes or handling of situations or it was some older hardware that was not properly set up according to standards for the industry. It can be a real pain in the ass trying to fix some peoples computer systems. Often the only way to track the problem down is to keep switching off individual components in the software or swapping some the hardware out if things are desperate enough. Trying to compare it to someone elses set up is usually useless since there are likely too many differences in their systems. That is why some new games flop so badly for some users when they come out and yet other have no troubles at all; most frequently a difference in hardware and the drivers for it that end up delivering a vast difference in end user performace.

[Quark]

It has nothing to do with local computers, this is the server forcefully kicking me back to the login screen for "breaking the rules" - i.e. spamming.

This problem is a combination of different addons, but GuildedDKP seems to bear the brunt of it when I'm forced to broadcast. You'll note I can come online, play fine for 50 minutes or so, then the next 3 or so times I login I'm having issues. Each time I login I'm forced to broadcast again, but the first disconnect isn't from a broadcast itself - it's from data requests and a bunch of other addons combining at once to say "screw you, Quark."

Psybie singlehandedly kicked me offline yesterday, as he was marked "AFK" when I rejoined the Guilded channel causing a huge amount of traffic back and forth between us.

That said, I'm disabling my GuildedDKP on raid nights (when most people are on and constantly checking points) until I comment out the whispers for broadcasting.

Let this be a warning to everyone -> I won't be updating your local points anymore.

[Sabra]

Would someone please write a comprehensive guide to configuring the options in GEM? I noticed that most of the chat last night was about how to bind GEM to a /command.

It was great to see so many people flooding the AVevent channel last night. I personally hope that GEM is here to stay and that guilded will soon be a thing of the past.

[RTM]

Would someone please write a comprehensive guide to configuring the options in GEM? I noticed that most of the chat last night was about how to bind GEM to a /command.

It was great to see so many people flooding the AVevent channel last night. I personally hope that GEM is here to stay and that guilded will soon be a thing of the past.
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GEM has an online help feature, which I discovered last night (after I got it all configured, of course). There's a little |?| icon underneath the close button on each of the tabs- hover over it and it gives a pretty good explanation of what each available option does.

[Sabra]

Bump. There's an update.

[LochnarITB]

Bump. There's an update.
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I don't think avarice is calling it official, but I have now dumped guilded and am using only this. How could I resist a program that quacks like a duck when someone types "loch" in chat?! :lol:

[Kevin]

I don't think avarice is calling it official, but I have now dumped guilded and am using only this.  How could I resist a program that quacks like a duck when someone types "loch" in chat?! :lol:
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Council is still voting. But exit polls indicate that it will be official soon. :)

[Darian]

By vote of the Avarice Council, Guilded is dead. Long Live GEM. =P

Seriously, if you don't have GEM installed, please do so ASAP. Avarice leadership is now "free" to uninstall Guilded, and most of us can be presumed to be doing so prior to our next login.

[Sabra]

By vote of the Avarice Council, Guilded is dead.  Long Live GEM.  =P

Seriously, if you don't have GEM installed, please do so ASAP.  Avarice leadership is now "free" to uninstall Guilded, and most of us can be presumed to be doing so prior to our next login.
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Woot!!!!! I am so freaking sick of having so many channels to monitor that I've turned off avarice on most of my character, but that means I'm missing good friends who are not necessarily in GEM. This news makes my day. Many thanks to the council.