question about diablosight

[duner]

I am of course an diablo legit player, meaning that i dont use duped items and dont use any other hacker or char editor to play.
but i do use a program called DiabloSight, that is an 'scanner' wich sshows the user if the other players and yourself are legit characters.
(i do so, because i dont like dueling or even co-oping with cheaters)

my problem is: i came across some people, some where hackers and some where legit, wich said that DiabloSight was considered cheating.

i would like to know how the 'lurker lounge' community feels about this..

thanks for you time :)

[Nystul]

I think opinions here about scanners have been very mixed. Some people use them. Some people consider them cheating. Some people don't like them, but wouldn't go as far as considering them cheating. My feeling is that scanners are usually not cheating as long as you are only using them to see items that are not possibly legit. Using them to copy other players items or characters, look for ears in someone's inventory, or view legit items I would consider cheating.

But in any case, I don't use scanners because I think that common sense is usually a better indicator of who cheats and who doesn't. An explanation of that idea by Armin can be found here: http://www.arewehavingfunyet.com/diablo/scanners.txt

[Nomad25055]

I don't use scanners because I think that common sense is usually a better indicator of who cheats and who doesn't.

Quoted for truth.

[[vL]Kp]

I am of course an diablo legit player, meaning that i dont use duped items and dont use any other hacker or char editor to play.
but i do use a program called DiabloSight, that is an 'scanner' wich sshows the user if the other players and yourself are legit characters.
(i do so, because i dont like dueling or even co-oping with cheaters)

my problem is: i came across some people, some where hackers and some where legit, wich said that DiabloSight was considered cheating.

i would like to know how the 'lurker lounge' community feels about this..

thanks for you time :)
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Any true hacker should be able to tell you that a scanner isn't worth your time. Scanners try to detect impossible items, but fall prey to a number of problems:

(1) Diablo does not synchronize inventory properly. The state of a player's inventory is sent once when he joins, then never updated afterward. So if he equips an item he had in inventory when he entered, most scanners will freak and complain about duplicate items since it cannot tell that he no longer has an instance in his inventory. As a corollary, cheated items can be hidden from the scanner by equipping them before joining the game, then moving to inventory after the town loads.
(2) The duplicate item detection is spotty at best. Duplicated items are exact copies, so the only way to detect them is to (a) see two (or more) of the duplicated item in the same game at the same time (but beware (1) above) or (B) compile a list of believed-to-be-duplicated items and check other players' gear against that.
(3) Detection of impossible items relies on the author of the scanner to know item rules. If he's wrong, he may flag a legitimate item as hacked or let an impossible item through with no warnings.
(4) All the really nasty stuff is undetectable. God mode? It's a code hack on the cheater's system, undetectable except by observing that he isn't losing hit points. Godly mana? Even worse, since Diablo never updates the mana state of non-local players. Autokill? It's typically implemented by reporting huge amounts of damage at the victim without bothering to supply any source for the attack. Undetectable until it happens, and identifiable then only by heuristics. Game crash? Typically a code hack to send some malformed data. Undetectable until it happens. See location of other players? It's a code hack on the cheater's system, just like the map hacks for Starcraft. You can't detect it at all, even once it's used.

[Jarulf]

But in any case, I don't use scanners because I think that common sense is usually a better indicator of who cheats and who doesn't. 

True, but I can still see a potential for some use, typically as a suplemental check. As allready said, if someone wants to hide their actual items, there is really not much to do. If someone wants to resort to code cheats, again, not much to do. And so on. But it can give a good initial hint if someone can be trusted and/or use typical cheat and/or duped item. Seriously, take a look at someones inventory and it is takes a typical one second to spot the person who use typical duped or impossible item. No need to resort to chating a while, judging by other means and so on. One can rule away quite a bunch of people in such a way. The rest? You catch by your common sense, or if they are "good" at it, unfortunately only when you die or crash out of the game.

I don't recall who did the diablosight program, wasn't it Saint Moe EverGreen or whatever his name was? If so, I would say that as far as the "rules" to spot impossible and bad items, it is as good as it gets with next to no false positives are missed negatives. I actually looked at the code and algorithms myself to at least one of versions and even helped correct some of the errors and it was quite solid. Not saying it will never be wrong though.

[Hureg]

Any true hacker should be able to tell you that a scanner isn't worth your time.  Scanners try to detect impossible items, but fall prey to a number of problems:

(1) Diablo does not synchronize inventory properly.  The state of a player's inventory is sent once when he joins, then never updated afterward.  So if he equips an item he had in inventory when he entered, most scanners will freak and complain about duplicate items since it cannot tell that he no longer has an instance in his inventory.  As a corollary, cheated items can be hidden from the scanner by equipping them before joining the game, then moving to inventory after the town loads.
(2) The duplicate item detection is spotty at best.  Duplicated items are exact copies, so the only way to detect them is to (a) see two (or more) of the duplicated item in the same game at the same time (but beware (1) above) or (B) compile a list of believed-to-be-duplicated items and check other players' gear against that.
(3) Detection of impossible items relies on the author of the scanner to know item rules.  If he's wrong, he may flag a legitimate item as hacked or let an impossible item through with no warnings.
(4) All the really nasty stuff is undetectable.  God mode?  It's a code hack on the cheater's system, undetectable except by observing that he isn't losing hit points.  Godly mana?  Even worse, since Diablo never updates the mana state of non-local players.  Autokill?  It's typically implemented by reporting huge amounts of damage at the victim without bothering to supply any source for the attack.  Undetectable until it happens, and identifiable then only by heuristics.  Game crash?  Typically a code hack to send some malformed data.  Undetectable until it happens.  See location of other players?  It's a code hack on the cheater's system, just like the map hacks for Starcraft.  You can't detect it at all, even once it's used.
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Most current legit players who bother to scan use diabloguard, which elimanates most of the concerns above. Not (1) unfortunately but most legit players are aware of this limitation and subsequently ignore it, as for (2) it uses the (B) option and its database of duplicated items is very extensive. I can't say for certain but I'm pretty sure (3) is covered (who spends enough time creating a scanner without knowing item rules?) and as for (4), diablo hackers tend to be anything but discreet, the scanner picks up god mode, hacked spell levels, character levels and attributes and if someone's about to hack you in a game, I would be very surprised if they weren't using any of these hacks as well.

Link to diabloguard - www.legit-diablo.de.vu

[[vL]Kp]

I don't recall who did the diablosight program, wasn't it Saint Moe EverGreen or whatever his name was? If so, I would say that as far as the "rules" to spot impossible and bad items, it is as good as it gets with next to no false positives are missed negatives. I actually looked at the code and algorithms myself to at least one of versions and even helped correct some of the errors and it was quite solid. Not saying it will never be wrong though.[right][snapback]94731[/snapback][/right]

Yes, Moe was the author of DiabloSight. I didn't intend to imply he made a bad program, only to point out that a scanner strongly relies on a well informed author.

diablo hackers tend to be anything but discreet, the scanner picks up god mode[right][snapback]94857[/snapback][/right]

This is not possible. At best, the scanner can detect some side effect of a poorly implemented god mode hack. Code changes are inherently undetectable by remote parties.

[Taishi88]

I myself a legit player as well, I've never duped in diablo for pc, I used to do it on my playstation game, but that was when I was younger and didn't know what honor was. I know better now... anyway I didn't wan't to get a scanner because I would like to eventually join a legit guild, and I don't think a scanner would be completly legit, at least not to the guild rules. Anyway I didn't know there were that many hacks and hackers on diablo, it's kinda irritating. I've had a kid named uziel520 (mage, and a hacker, I saw him duping) tried to kill me before. Luckily I exited the game soon enough. But the nerves of some people.

[Brogden]

Quite honestly i think taht a scanner that is purley a scanner (not an item copier, duper, saver, destroyer, etc.) is perfectly legit, and should actually be considered as an improvement on the originall diablo game. It allows a user to tell if a player is cheating, but it also allows someone to show what an item can do without risking having it stollen. If i knew more about the diablo coding, i would try to make a scanner that would only detect for certain item names/types. That way, you wouldn't be unsure if looking at another person's items was "illegal", all you'd know is if the person was cheating or not.

[LennyLen]

That way, you wouldn't be unsure if looking at another person's items was "illegal", all you'd know is if the person was cheating or not

Scanners can only pick up obvious cheating - Stats that are too high, common dupes, etc. People who cheat in such ways are usually pretty easy to spot without relying on scanners.

No scanner could ever tell if you if an item had been bought with 'hacked' cash, or had been generated using a mega drops hack. Such items are generated by the game engine in the normal fashion, and will not share the same ID as a common dupe.

That's why using scanners as protection is pretty pointless. They won't tell you anything about other players that you wouldn't be able to tell without using a little observation.

[edit]I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those pesky typos[/edit]

[Force]

and if someone's about to hack you in a game

People can hack other players? :huh:

[Hureg]

People can hack other players? :huh:
[right][snapback]106358[/snapback][/right]

sure, happened to me once before - lvl 1** (definately over 100) joined game (it was a bot or something i'm pretty sure) and corrupted my save file within a minute - ie. making the character unusable once i exited the game. In chat after i was a lvl 0 if i recall correctly, couldn't join games or host games as if i was thrown behind a firewall and then when i tried to access the character again, in the character selection screen it would bring up the "select your class for new character" screen. Save was stuffed.

It's a very rare thing to happen though i think and it did happen to me over a year ago, when i might add, i had absolutely no firewall protection for my computer, so i wouldn't be too worried about it - plus you can always back your save file up in case that happens. Don't abuse this though - if you can't get your gear back from monsters - then your gear is gone - or else you're not legit and shouldn't be posting here, IMO.

Hureg.

[Force]

sure, happened to me once before - lvl 1** (definately over 100) joined game (it was a bot or something i'm pretty sure) and corrupted my save file within a minute - ie. making the character unusable once i exited the game. In chat after i was a lvl 0 if i recall correctly, couldn't join games or host games as if i was thrown behind a firewall and then when i tried to access the character again, in the character selection screen it would bring up the "select your class for new character" screen. Save was stuffed.

It's a very rare thing to happen though i think and it did happen to me over a year ago, when i might add, i had absolutely no firewall protection for my computer, so  i wouldn't be too worried about it - plus you can always back your save file up in case that happens. Don't abuse this though - if you can't get your gear back from monsters - then your gear is gone - or else you're not legit and shouldn't be posting here, IMO.

Hureg.
[right][snapback]106649[/snapback][/right]

Ahhh.... I had no idea people could be so evil... =/ I'm makin backups of my characters now (only incase of somethin like which you described happened to you).

[LemmingofGlory]

sure, happened to me once before - lvl 1** (definately over 100) joined game (it was a bot or something i'm pretty sure) and corrupted my save file within a minute - ie. making the character unusable once i exited the game. In chat after i was a lvl 0 if i recall correctly, couldn't join games or host games as if i was thrown behind a firewall and then when i tried to access the character again, in the character selection screen it would bring up the "select your class for new character" screen. Save was stuffed.

And just how can he modify a file that's not even on his machine? For someone to break into your computer and modify the file, he'd have to do something that's illegal. No trainer program will do that. So, possibilities:
(1) You ran into a black hat (and how many of them play grungy old games?)
(2) Someone figured out how to corrupt other players' save files without needing to access files on the target machine.
(3) Your save file was corrupted by something else.

I've heard this sort of story lots of times, and I've never heard it verified by someone who can explain precisely what happened. So, it just sounds like scare tactics to me. That said, creating character backups is a good idea for lots of reasons -- and the lag monster is no small motivator.

-Lemmy

[Hureg]

And just how can he modify a file that's not even on his machine? For someone to break into your computer and modify the file, he'd have to do something that's illegal. No trainer program will do that. So, possibilities:
(1) You ran into a black hat (and how many of them play grungy old games?)
(2) Someone figured out how to corrupt other players' save files without needing to access files on the target machine.
(3) Your save file was corrupted by something else.

I've heard this sort of story lots of times, and I've never heard it verified by someone who can explain precisely what happened. So, it just sounds like scare tactics to me. That said, creating character backups is a good idea for lots of reasons -- and the lag monster is no small motivator.

-Lemmy
[right][snapback]106657[/snapback][/right]

Sorry, i can't really help any as i kinda suck with computers. All i know is that the only thing altered was the save file (meaning my computer seemed fine after), that no one i know or have known on b.net has had a similar loss, that i had no firewall protection for my computer and that i had no external programs running at the time, be they diablo related or otherwise, with the exception of diabloguard (a scanner, used by many of the people i play/have played with on b.net). I was using win98 o/s and i must say that it did seem very apparent to me that whatever happened was caused by the 100+ character that joined my game.

I was only new to b.net at the time (i'd played d before, but that was long ago and only through ipx and kali - modem was too rubbish to play over bnet) and didn't really know anything tech related at all - otherwise, i would provide you with screenshots and a copy of the corrupted save. As it stands though i have neither.

Wikipedia is down - black hat = hacker?

PS - a couple of days later - trying to find some items for my recreated warrior with my sorcerer - i came upon an emerald shield of the tiger - a gift from lusty, in normal no less - and have been playing low ac ever since - some time things just happen for a reason

[LemmingofGlory]

Sorry, i can't really help any as i kinda suck with computers. All i know is that the only thing altered was the save file (meaning my computer seemed fine after), that no one i know or have known on b.net has had a similar loss, that i had no firewall protection for my computer and that i had no external programs running at the time, be they diablo related or otherwise, with the exception of diabloguard (a scanner, used by many of the people i play/have played with on b.net). I was using win98 o/s and i must say that it did seem very apparent to me that whatever happened was caused by the 100+ character that joined my game.

A code guru friend of mine told me that Diablo is fragile enough for that to happen, so that seems the likely explanation. I've just heard so many "My character was hacked!" stories over the years that I get weary and start tuning them out.

Wikipedia is down - black hat = hacker?

According to wikipedia, "black hat" (a reference to the colors of hats worn by heroes/villains in westerns) is a neologism to refer to "crackers" (malicious hackers). I thought "black hat" sounded cooler than "cracker" so I used that and supplied the link. I never liked the term "cracker." It reminds me of "Did you hear me, cracka? There's SNAKES ON A PLANE!"

PS - a couple of days later - trying to find some items for my recreated warrior with my sorcerer - i came upon an emerald shield of the tiger - a gift from lusty, in normal no less - and have been playing low ac ever since - some time things just happen for a reason

Character catastrophies that lead to new playstyles are all kinds of fun. It sucks when the loss hits, but if you pull yourself back up, you'll see things differently the second time around. It can be rather refreshing.

-Lemmy

[Force]

According to wikipedia, "black hat" (a reference to the colors of hats worn by heroes/villains in westerns) is a neologism to refer to "crackers" (malicious hackers). I thought "black hat" sounded cooler than "cracker" so I used that and supplied the link. I never liked the term "cracker." It reminds me of "Did you hear me, cracka? There's SNAKES ON A PLANE!"
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I always thought "black hats" were simply hackers with malicious intentions. And I believe crackers happen to be hackers that simply break registration and security codes (example, registry/cd keys).