More Ragnaros Thoughts

[Bolty]

Resurrecting this. Legedi over at the CA forums pointed out this strategy guide for Ragnaros which is very close to what we've been doing already.

We just need everyone to study this, understand it, and be ready to do it. One or two people who come to the next Rag attempt and have no clue what to expect can blow it for everyone.

WE BEAT A SONS PACK on Saturday. We're close.

-Bolty

[Tal]

WE BEAT A SONS PACK on Saturday.  We're close.

-Bolty
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As a reminder to the other tanks - cleave works wonders for getting the attention of the sons as they come over. I found that if I ran over to the edge of the fire ring and cleaved that I could easy attract quite a few of them. Then it was a matter of cleaving while walking to get them to the slaughter zone. :)

Props to the healers who kept Shal vertical during that. :) <3

[Lissa]

Resurrecting this.&nbsp; Legedi over at the CA forums pointed out this strategy guide for Ragnaros which is very close to what we've been doing already.

We just need everyone to study this, understand it, and be ready to do it.&nbsp; One or two people who come to the next Rag attempt and have no clue what to expect can blow it for everyone.

WE BEAT A SONS PACK on Saturday.&nbsp; We're close.

-Bolty
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To tell the truth, I think we just need a little more FR and Rag is a walking deadman. If we can get the two main tanks to around 275 unbuffed FR, with the Pally aura, knock backs should be extremely rare.

Also, as was talked about, I think having two Pallies in the MT group would be viable. First Pally runs the fire resist aura and the second Pally runs Devotion and if the First Pally goes down or gets knocked out of range, the second Pally can switch to FR aura until the first Pally gets back in range.

[Bolty]

To tell the truth, I think we just need a little more FR and Rag is a walking deadman.&nbsp; If we can get the two main tanks to around 275 unbuffed FR, with the Pally aura, knock backs should be extremely rare.[right][snapback]96801[/snapback][/right]

On our best run Saturday, the main tank stayed up, thanks to adjustments by the MT healing squad we had in place. What defeated us in the end was the fact that we couldn't kill Ragnaros fast enough - a second Sons pack came out, and that's pretty much game over for just about any raid group.

We need to keep the DPS'ers alive. Your comment about more FR is dead on. It's a combination of many things:

1) Everyone needs more FR
2) DPS'ers need to watch their positioning
3) DPS'ers need to bandage whenever possible
4) Healers need to do 1-3 and more, but that's always the case

When the Sons packs come out, the melee/ranged healers will typically need a break - I had blown my mana pool keeping them alive - and hopefully the MT healers have enough left to cover the Sons tanks. So much is dependent on how much damage the raid as a whole takes.

-Bolty

[Quark]

3) DPS'ers need to bandage whenever possible
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One thing to note -> Lava Surges, a random attack, can be nasty to anyone trying to bandage. With two bandages on our good run, I got a total of 600 health (out of 4000) by bad timing.

[Ruvanal]

1) Everyone needs more FR

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I second more stress on this. A players lack of FR is not just going to effect his survival, but also possibly the survival of those near them. If you are hit by the Fireball ("By Fire be Purged!") and do not resist, then you can end up taking damage and sending nearby character flying for impact damage and possible lava baths.

On our best run Saturday, this is what lead to killing Littledude prior to the Sons getting spawned. There were 4 times I was blown away and it was always from an explosion to my right the sent me flying to the left. The first time was not too serious, but left me at an uncomfortable level of life, but too little damage to want to burn bandage right away. The second impact did somewhat more damage and I managed to get about a third of the effect of the bandage off prior to a lava surge interupting it. The third was about the same as the second for damage but I only got like 2 ticks of bandaging off prior to a lava suge interuption. I then had to chug a healing pot to even have a risky amount of health to continue with. Just as I got back into postion, I got hit with the fourth blast effect; only this time it dumped me in a bad spot in the lava. My choices there were to try to hop out onto land (did not work, too high a ledge in that area) hop out onto the land area with melee DPS (mana user around there=big no-no) or try to swim around to find another spot with lower ledges to hop out at. I died from the lava swiming after about 6 seconds and getting hung up on some crag in there. At no point in this was directly damaged by Ragnaros, it was all incidently damage from being flung into the air and taking falling damage or having to take an extended lava bath. Also note that during the times that I was flung around and having to heal and try to get back into position, that my DPS was effectively ZERO. Not my lack of FR per se, but the lack of the group overall.

My add into to this though is that we need to take some time on a run and make more players go take some lava dips. See what you can take with your FR gear on. See where to try to head if you do get thrown in. Be more aware of where all the easy egress points out of the lava are so that players can spend a minimal amount of time in it. Know which route to take to get out and back to position so that you do not risk the melee DPS or MTs when you head back.

But overall I would say we did good. Get the overall FR up across all the raid and then it will be time to start looking at getting the consumables to use like the Greater Fire Protection potion; till then save the mats till we are really ready for this step.

[Kevin]

I second more stress on this.&nbsp; A players lack of FR is not just going to effect his survival, but also possibly the survival of those near them.&nbsp; If you are hit by the Fireball ("By Fire be Purged!") and do not resist, then you can end up taking damage and sending nearby character flying for impact damage and possible lava baths.&nbsp;

On our best run Saturday, this is what lead to killing Littledude prior to the Sons getting spawned.&nbsp; There were 4 times I was blown away and it was always from an explosion to my right the sent me flying to the left.&nbsp; The first time was not too serious, but left me at an uncomfortable level of life, but too little damage to want to burn bandage right away.&nbsp; The second impact did somewhat more damage and I managed to get about a third of the effect of the bandage off prior to a lava surge interupting it.&nbsp; The third was about the same as the second for damage but I only got like 2 ticks of bandaging off prior to a lava suge interuption.&nbsp; I then had to chug a healing pot to even have a risky amount of health to continue with.&nbsp; Just as I got back into postion, I got hit with the fourth blast effect; only this time it dumped me in a bad spot in the lava.&nbsp; My choices there were to try to hop out onto land (did not work, too high a ledge in that area) hop out onto the land area with melee DPS (mana user around there=big no-no) or try to swim around to find another spot with lower ledges to hop out at.&nbsp; I died from the lava swiming after about 6 seconds and getting hung up on some crag in there.&nbsp; At no point in this was directly damaged by Ragnaros, it was all incidently damage from being flung into the air and taking falling damage or having to take an extended lava bath.&nbsp; Also note that during the times that I was flung around and having to heal and try to get back into position, that my DPS was effectively ZERO.&nbsp; Not my lack of FR per se, but the lack of the group overall.

My add into to this though is that we need to take some time on a run and make more players go take some lava dips.&nbsp; See what you can take with your FR gear on.&nbsp; See where to try to head if you do get thrown in.&nbsp; Be more aware of where all the easy egress points out of the lava are so that players can spend a minimal amount of time in it.&nbsp; Know which route to take to get out and back to position so that you do not risk the melee DPS or MTs when you head back.

But overall I would say we did good.&nbsp; Get the overall FR up across all the raid and then it will be time to start looking at getting the consumables to use like the Greater Fire Protection potion; till then save the mats till we are really ready for this step.
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This brings up two points. First I agree that more FR is needed. In the case of the tanks though unless we go outside of avarice for crafts of the DI legs and DI gloves it is very very hard to get to the 255 unbuffed level and ideally you want to be even higher than that. I'm working to get to revered with Gnolack and I'm getting some help, potentially even from the avarice bank (still in discussion) getting that much FR still needs more support from the outside. As mentioned Rags can still do 1200+ physical damage without a crit, you can not sacrifice too much armor or stamina for the FR on the MT because of this. I think that Gnolack's 231 unbuffed is currently doing this though because of some of the pieces I wear to get that hight.

Second. I realize that the amount of ranged DPS we bring varies from day to day and spacing is an every run kind of feel but do we know who you were standing near? It could be that you or they could have positioned better to prevent this. This is the kind of thing we need to help each other out on too.

You mention getting to know the egress points, that is big deal because while you are getting back into position you might have no choice but to get in range of someone else and either endanger them with a knockback or endanger yourself with another knockback. Positioning is still in the learning stages but it is very important as well. Spacing out is more important than having a wall behind you.

And yes as you said more FR means more margin for error. I was not there for the last attempt but from what I have heard I do not think we are at the stage of burning consumables just yet. I don't doubt that they will be a help to us in getting that first kill but I'm still of the opinion that holding off on them is probably sill the more prudent choice. I know that i'm still saving up for another libram of resiliance so that when I get my Dark Iron Leggings I can slap that on there, I'm not wishing to stress the monetary funds of myself or others for consumables until we get closer.

[Icebird]

We've been working on Molten Core for a while now - first with a couple of other guilds, and for the last two weeks on our own. On our first guild run we got Ragnaros down to 5% twice - but we couldn't get that last sliver of life before the second wave of Sons spawned.

Then finally on Saturday we got him down.

Video for entertainment and possible education.

http://files.filefront.com/Soulbound_vs_Ra...;/fileinfo.html

We have two tanks with a pretty good set of Fire Resist gear. With paladin aura and the Scarshield Spellbinder buff they were both above 300 FR.

We buffed the entire raid with the BRD buff. Also got the buffs from Sayge at the Darkmoon Faire, but not Call of the Dragonslayer (Onyxia was not cooperating with our efforts to claim her head).

We made a ton of Greater Fire Protection Potions, Mana Pots, Health Pots, Elixirs of Arcane Power, Mongoose Potions. One of our tanks used R.O.I.D.S. I had a Lung Juice Cocktail and the Windblossom Buff. We put soulstones on the Rogues.

I also recommend the Felwood plants. Whipper Root Tubers and Nights Dragon Breath are on seperate 1 minute timers. Learn to love them.

The first three minutes is all about flat out DPS. Only melee attackers can draw aggro away from the MT - they have to take breaks during the AOE knockback. Your offtank has to be ready to grab aggro if the MT gets knocked back.

Your ranged DPS can simply unload during phase 1. We got him down to 47% before the Sons of Flame spawned.

Sons of Flame - you have to get them corralled, tanked and under control *away* from the casters. We told our warlocks to banish once (but only once).

After the Sons are beaten its more DPS, and you hope your damage stays high enough to kill him before the second wave of Sons.

A tip another guild gave us: Only your two tanks need shields. Your other warriors should be carrying a large two-hander to do as much damage as possible.

If you are losing a lot of people in Phase 1, you probably need more fire resist.

Good luck guys!

Chris

[Ashkael]

The Ragnaros encounter is actually less technical and simpler than Majordomo when you got the following three key aspects covered:

• Fire resistance<>
  
• Proper Positioning<>
  
• DPS<>
  [st]As far as fire resistance is concerned, the two main tanks should have at least 300 FR unbuffed. Melee DPS should be at around 150 FR unbuffed, and all ranged DPS and healers should be at 80 FR unbuffed. It also helps to organize a quick trip into UBRS to buff your raid group with the fire resistance buff (+83 FR if I recall correctly) from the Spellbinder mobs in the first room (priests have to mind control them and buff the raid, so it helps to split the main raid group into 3 separate groups). The UBRS buff helps build up confidence among your raid group, makes the encounter a bit easier, and serves as a temporary band aid for those who are not still within their correct FR bracket.
  
  Positioning is also a key part of this fight, and you always have to make sure all the members in your raid group are 100% aware of what happens when they are not correctly spaced. As you might know by now, when Ragnaros yells “By fire be purged!” he targets one random raid member and makes him the center of an AoE fire explosion. The person that gets targeted takes minimal fire damage, but everyone in a ~10 yard radius around him gets knocked high in the air (and probably into the lava). Ranged DPS should be positioned closer to the edge of the lava like a firing squad, with enough space between each member to not screw up the person right next to him. The healers assigned to each ranged DPS group should always be standing BEHIND them, making sure to be at a safe enough distance to not screw up anyone else. Melee DPS should start off the fight spaced out on the opposite side of where the main tank will be tanking Ragnaros. When it’s time to DPS Ragnaros, melee DPS also has to be properly spaced out from each other to minimize collateral damage from these AoE explosions. The healers assigned to the melee DPS group have to use the remaining space left by the ranged DPS at the edge of the lava in the outer ring to get in healing range of the melee DPS, and some of them will have to position themselves at the edge of the lava in the inner circle due to space limitations. The healers that will be taking care of the MT have to position themselves directly behind him, properly spaced out to avoid the random AoE explosions that could potentially spell the death of one of the MT’s. In short, if more than one or two people get knocked into the air during the fight, you have a positioning problem.
  
  It’s also a good idea to give at least each member two Greater Fire Resistance potions. Have them drink their first potion before the fight starts so the potion cooldown is clear by the time the fight starts, and have them drink the second potion just before the sons. The fire potions really help minimize damage taken to your raid group and thus mana spent on healing people.
  
  One important thing to point out here is that if your ranged DPS is properly equipped with FR gear and properly positioned, they should be taking next to NO damage at all and if they do, they should bandage up. Speaking of bandages, melee DPS should do so in between AoE knockbacks to help save up the healer’s mana.
  
  Lastly, there’s the issue of DPS. It’s probably a good idea to maximize your guild’s damage output by asking your members to properly spec for maximum DPS just for this fight. For example, mages should be specced into Arcane Power, Artic Reach, Improved Frostbolt, Ice Shards and Piercing Ice to maximize their damage output during this fight. It’s basically the same deal for all the other classes. Your first ever Ragnaros kill is a guild effort, and as much as I hate to tell people how to play their characters, everyone should be willing to sacrifice some gold in order to be properly specced for maximum performance during this fight. When it comes to melee DPS, it’s just an issue of making sure they back up before the AoE knockback happens and making sure they give the secondary tank some seconds of aggro building in case the main tank gets punted. Make sure every single class that can debuff does so to maximize damage (Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption, Serpent Sting, heck, even Moonfire if you don’t have that many debuffers in your raid group). If you want to push it to the extremes, have your guild farm mats for Flasks of Supreme Power for your ranged spell casters, and give your melee DPS sharpening stones. If everything goes well and people are doing their DPS job correctly and debuffing, Ragnaros should be at less than 40% before the first submersion (our best is 26% so far). By the time he comes back up, he will fall into Execute range and this will make his health go down faster. Basically, you want to kill him before he submerges for a second time.
  
  Regarding the Sons of Ragnaros, have all your ranged DPS collapse 10 to 15 seconds before he submerges. Have your MT’s with their huge FR pick up as many sons as possible, Warlocks banish one son but never rebanish, and give a hunter a MT window so he can mark one for the raid to assist. Dealing with the sons is fairly trivial if your raid group is properly equipped with FR gear since they deal strictly 100% fire damage. If the ranged DPS and healers collapse properly, the warriors manage to keep the sons in the center and away from all mana users and if people are properly assisting on the hunter and focusing fire, the sons should go down real fast. All forms of crowd control work on them, be it Frost Nova, War Stomp, Banish, etc. Use anything in your power to slow them, and if a mana user has aggro he should run to the warriors instead of pulling the son closer to other mana users. Even a single mage spamming Rank 1 Improved Blizzard to keep the sons slowed down and tight can make all the difference.
  
  Just remember, correct positioning and correct FR (don't forget the UBRS buff!) will be a huge asset to your raid group and will give a huge break to your healer's mana pools. Once again, if more than two people get knocked into the air at the same time, you've got a positioning problem in your hands!
  
  Anyway, I hope some of what I wrote in here helps you out with Ragnaros, and I honestly hope you don't get an Essence of the Pure Flame on your first kill. :)

[Walkiry]

One thing to note -> Lava Surges, a random attack, can be nasty to anyone trying to bandage.&nbsp; With two bandages on our good run, I got a total of 600 health (out of 4000) by bad timing.
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1) Bring Whipper Root Tubers.
2) Bring Night Dragon's Breaths.
3) Bring Razorlash Roots.
4) ???
5) Profit.

EDIT: I suck at using tags.

Edit again: Seems like I'm late to the party (waves at Icebird) ^_^

[Frag]

Not speaking for anyone here, or even personal opinion, just fact:

The buff from UBRS is in a very, very grey area. There are conflicting reports from GM's and a CM on whether it's use is exploiting or not.

It's something to bear in mind.

~Frag :)


Edit: Please disregard this post, I'm a foo! :D

[Quark]

CMs have confirmed it's not an exploit, even in a post where they linked a picture of a GM claiming it was. I've never heard of anyone punished for it, either.

I think, if Blizzard wanted to consider it exploiting, it would already be gone.

[Legedi]

Should we maybe try getting this buff for our next Rag attempt? This plus potions could be all she wrote for Rag.

[Ashkael]

CMs have confirmed it's not an exploit, even in a post where they linked a picture of a GM claiming it was.&nbsp; I've never heard of anyone punished for it, either.

I think, if Blizzard wanted to consider it exploiting, it would already be gone.
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Yup. This is (supposedly) a quote from Caydem from the Wow Community Site forums:

As the others have stated, this is considered creative use of game mechanics and is legitimate.

I can't vouch for the veracity of this statement, but if it is indeed true, it should settle all doubts regarding the UBRS buff. As I said before, the buff works as a band aid to get your raid group in their proper FR bracket and to boost morale.

EDIT: I found a link to Caydem's full statement here:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post269758

The direct quote is:

This is a creative use of game mechanics... not an exploit. It wouldn't be on the mind control options if we didn't intend for it to be there. Funny, isn't it, how these spellcasters are located right inside an instance that's very, very close to two raid dungeons where fire resistance plays a big role, hm? ;)

[Icebird]

I can confirm seeing the exact quoted post by Caydiem. They are aware of the buff. If they considered it an exploit they would have changed it by now. (Why the heck the Scarshield Spellbinders have a buff like that in the first place is a mystery...).

The way I figure it, this is a fight where you should give yourself every advantage you can get.

Edit: New post by Caydiem on the fire buff. Hope this ends once for all any speculation on the subject.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post269758

Chris

[Xanthix]

Now, if Blizz would only let the GM's know about Caydiem's post, maybe we can stop getting conflicting answers. :)

[Zarathustra]

I saw Cay's blue post before the forum ate it through time, and the "creative use of game mechanics" is correct in Blizzard's thoughts. One could speculate they put those Spellbinders in as a hidden bonus, since there's no way a trash mob in BRS needs a 2-hour buff.

Just curious on your raid composition. How many Druids are you bringing? We've had the most success on sons when we've got Druids to spare, since all of them are going Dire Bear to offtank. It grants immunity to the mana burn, gives a free heal in the way of Frenzied Regeneration, and suitably plants all Sons in place so they can't roam over to the cloth.

Once you can get a clean Sons spawn under your belt, you've got Ragnaros in the bag.

[Frag]

Sorry for the derailment then! As usual, all my knowledge about the game is about 2-4 months behind everyone elses'. I'll go back to lurking! :)

*Pulls out a bag of popcorn and leans back*

~Frag :D