Paladin 1.9 Talant Trees

[Chesspiece_face]

HOLY TREE
-------------------------

Tier 1

Divine Strength (5/5)
- Increases your Strength by 2% (2/4/6/8/10)

Divine Intellect (5/5) - NEW!
- Increases your Intellect by 2% (2/4/6/8/10)


Tier 2

Spiritual Focus (5/5)
- Gives your Flash of Light and Holy Light spells a 14% chance to avoid interruption (14%/28%/42%/56%/70%)

Imp. Seal of Righteousness (5/5)
- Increases damage done by your Seal of Righteousness by 3% (3/6/9/12/15)


Tier 3

Healing Light (3/3) - CHANGED
- Increases effects of your Holy Light and Flash of Light spells by 4% (4/8/12)

Divine Favor (1/1)
- Gives your next Flash of Light or Holy Light a 100% critical chance (2 min cooldown)

Imp Lay on Hands (2/2) - CHANGED
- Gives the target of your Lay on Hands a 25% boost in armor for 5 minutes and reduces the cooldown of your Lay on Hands by 10 minutes (up to 50%/20 min I assume)

Unyielding Faith (2/2) - NEW!
- Increase your chance to resist Fear/Disorient by 5% (to 10% prob).


Tier 4

Improved Blessing Wisdom (2/2) - CHANGED!
- Increase effects of BoW by 10% (to 20% prob)

Illumination
- Gives you a 20% to regain the mana cost of your Flash of Light or Holy Light spell when they have a critical effect.


Tier 5

Sanctity Aura (1/1)
Requires Divine Favor
- Increases Holy Damage done by allies in a 30 yard radius by 10%

Lasting Judgement (3/3) - NEW!
- Increases duration of Judgement of Light/Wisdom by 10 seconds (up to 20/30 prob)


Tier 6

Holy Power (5/5) - NEW!
- Increases crit chance of holy spells by 1% (up to 5% prob)


Tier 7

Holy Shock (1/1)
Requires Sanctity Aura
- The "new" holy shock, that can either do damage or heal friendly targets

[Chesspiece_face]

PROTECTION TREE
--------------------------

Tier 1

Imp Devotion Aura
- Increases armor bonus of your Devotion Aura by 5% (5%/10%/15%/20%/25%)

Redoubt
- Increases your chance to block by 6% after being the victim of a critical strike for 10 seconds or 5 blocks (6%/12%/18%/24%/30%)


Tier 2

Precision (3/3) - Moved from Ret Tree
- Increase chance to hit with melee weapons by 1% (up to 2%/3% prob)

Guardian's Favor (2/2) - NEW! Sorta ...
- Reduces cooldown of your Blessing of Protection by 60 seconds and the duration of your Blessing of Freedom by 3 seconds.

Toughness (5/5)
- Increases your armor value from items by 2% (2/4/6/8/10)


Tier 3

Blessing of Sanctuary (1/1)
- New blessing of sanctuary which has a holy damage shield (on a block) in addition to the damage mitigation

Improved Righteous Fury (3/3) - NEW!
- Increases amount of threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16% (32%/48% probably)

Shield Spec (3/3)
- Increases amount absorbed by your shield by 10% (10%/20%/30%)

Anticipation (5/5) - Moved from Ret Tree
- Increases your defense by 2 (2/4/6/8/10)


Tier 4

Improved Concentration Aura (3/3) - NEW! Sorta ...
- Increases effect of your Concentration Aura by an additional 5% and gives all group members affected by the aura an additional 5% chance to resist Silence and Interrupt effects.

Improved Hammer of Justice (3/3) - NEW!
- Reduces the cooldown of your HoJ by 5 seconds (10/15 probably)


Tier 5

Reckoning (5/5)
- Gives you a 20% chance to gain an extra attack after being the victim of a critical strike.

Holy Shield (1/1)
Requires Shield Spec
- Same as old


Tier 6

One-Hand Weapon Spec (5/5)
- Increases damage dealt with 1 handed weapons by 2% (2/4/6/8/10)


Tier 7

Repentance (1/1)
- Same as old

[Chesspiece_face]

RETRIBUTION TREE
-------------------------

Tier 1

Improved Blessing of Might (5/5)
- Increases AP bonus of your BoM by 4% (4%/8%/12%/16%/20%)

Benediction (5/5)
- Reduces the cost of your Retribution spells by 3% (3%/6%/9%/12%/15%)


Tier 2

Improved Judgement (2/2) - NEW!
- Decreases the cooldown of your Judgement spell by 1 second (up to 2 prob)

Improved Seal of Crusader (3/3) - CHANGED!
- Increases the Attack Power bonus of Soc and Holy Damage increase of the Judgement of SoC by 5% (up to 15% prob)

Deflection (5/5)
- Increases your chance to parry by 1% (1%/2%/3%/4%/5%)


Tier 3

Vindication (3/3) - NEW!
- Gives the Paladin's damaging melee attacks a chance to reduce the target's Strength and Agility by 5% for 10 seconds (up to 15% probably)

Conviction (5/5)
- Increases chance to get a critical with melee weapons by 1% (up to 5%)

Seal of Command (1/1)
- Same thing

Pursuit of Justice (2/2)
- Increases movement and mounted movement by 4% (up to 8%). This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects.


Tier 4

Eye for an Eye (2/2) - NEW!
- All spell criticals against you cause 15% of the damage taken to the caster as well. The damage caused bye Eye for an Eye will not exceed 50% of the Paladin's total health.

Improved Ret Aura (2/2) - CHANGED!
- Increases effects of Ret Aura by 25% (to 50% I imagine)


Tier 5

2-Hand Weapon Spec (5/5)
- Increases damage done by 2 handed weapons by 1% (up to 5%)

Consecration (1/1)
- Same spell


Tier 6

Vengeance (5/5)
Requires Conviction
- Gives you 3% bonus to Physical and Holy damage you deal for 8 seconds after dealing a critical strike with a weapon, spell, or ability


Tier 7

Blessing of Kings
- Same spell

[Kevin]

Please note that since the game didn't actually refund all my points and I haven't wiped talents there are some odd point placements.

[Kevin]

[Kevin]

[vor_lord]

Chesspiece_face and GG, this is really great (I can't look at the test server right now).

Any chance of you guys showing the new seal tooltips? For example, Seal of Righteousness now add holy damage to every attack instead of being a proc. I'm looking for some numbers on the skill changes outlined in the patch notes.

[Kevin]

Chesspiece_face and GG, this is really great (I can't look at the test server right now).

Any chance of you guys showing the new seal tooltips?  For example, Seal of Righteousness now add holy damage to every attack instead of being a proc.  I'm looking for some numbers on the skill changes outlined in the patch notes.
[right][snapback]95647[/snapback][/right]

Yeah I'll get them up at some point. I just haven't had a chance to screen it all and do rapid hack job edits like the talents. :)

[Chesspiece_face]

Chesspiece_face and GG, this is really great (I can't look at the test server right now).

Any chance of you guys showing the new seal tooltips?  For example, Seal of Righteousness now add holy damage to every attack instead of being a proc.  I'm looking for some numbers on the skill changes outlined in the patch notes.
[right][snapback]95647[/snapback][/right]

I don't know if "really great" is the descriptor i would use for it. OHHH you meant that we posted this up here!? AHHH i see.

Personally i'm completely insulted by the talant revision. The main thing they seem to have done is take the decent talants from the holy tree and moved them farther up the tree so you could no longer get both them and full ret/prot spec. BRILLIANT! I guess this is blizzards way of forcing us to RP our characters. "Paladins are all about sacrifice. I mean that's why you play them right? Now you have to sacrifice half the talants you had before!"

I hate to whine like an official board poster but i really don't see this patch increasing the little play that my paladin has been getting lately.

[vor_lord]

I don't know if "really great" is the descriptor i would use for it.  OHHH you meant that we posted this up here!?  AHHH i see.

[right][snapback]95651[/snapback][/right]

I thought about editing it to make that clear when I saw what I wrote, but yes, I meant it is great you posted it, not what it was <_< Some things I do like but the moving of key talents deeper will be tough.

I won't say for sure until I can play with a talent calculator, but I shelved my paladin due to lack of variety in play. I'm not sure this will help that.

[savaughn]

Holy crap -- !!!

The holy tree and protection trees which needed the most improvement are actually worse and the retribution tree which it seems is the only one anyone uses got buffed all to hell.

Taking a wild guess, whoever did the warrior/hunter/druid revisions was off sick and they had their warlock guy work on it.

Seriously, this is just ... well, stupid.

It will be odd to be able to heal yourself with Divine Favor and have Vengeance kick off, though.

[Rinnhart]

Holy's still "ok" and the other two trees didn't change at all.

[savaughn]

Holy's still "ok" and the other two trees didn't change at all.
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Didn't change at all?

*sputter*

Which part of Eye for an Eye and Vindication did you not see?

You do realize that 'locks and mages can now commit suicide by just attacking a paladin, right? Eye for an Eye on top of plate armor ... that's just creepy.

[Rinnhart]

Didn't change at all?

*sputter*

Which part of Eye for an Eye and Vindication did you not see?

You do realize that 'locks and mages can now commit suicide by just attacking a paladin, right?&nbsp; Eye for an Eye on top of plate armor ... that's just creepy.
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They're worthless #$%&ing filler.

Hits have "a chance" of reducing the targets strength and agility. I have to hope the mage freaking crits and and that it doesn't instantly kill me, because I still can't touch him unless he decides it'd be fun to use his staff.

Yay, retribution builds are now EVEN MORE DEPENDANT UPON THE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR. GOD HELP THE GAME IF PALADINS EVER CONTROL MORE THAN THEIR BLADDERS.

This isn't change. This is more garbage. What happened to the offensive ability on Divine Shield's timer? What happened to new auras? What happened to making the Trees actually effect gameplay? Reckoning is still the most reliable burst damage ability we have available, and it's a metagaming joke.

[Kevin]

They're worthless #$%&ing filler.

Hits have "a chance" of reducing the targets strength and agility. I have to hope the mage freaking crits and and that it doesn't instantly kill me, because I still can't touch him unless he decides it'd be fun to use his staff.

Yay, retribution builds are now EVEN MORE DEPENDANT UPON THE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR. GOD HELP THE GAME IF PALADINS EVER CONTROL MORE THAN THEIR BLADDERS.

This isn't change. This is more garbage. What happened to the offensive ability on Divine Shield's timer? What happened to new auras? What happened to making the Trees actually effect gameplay? Reckoning is still the most reliable burst damage ability we have available, and it's a metagaming joke.
[right][snapback]95685[/snapback][/right]

Agreed

Yep pallies didn't really get buffed that much (and they didn't need a buff they needed fixes to DPS control and for the 3 trees to mean something).

Actually my 20 points in Holy can't get me improved Blessing of Wisdom anymore (though I can get 10% more mana instead) and I would rather have teh 6 more man per 5 than more mana for myself. I don't see our alliance having any paladins with imp blessing of wisdom now becuase holy shock still sucks and I'm not giving up all my soloing powering for it and 5% more chance to crit with holy spells and a longer lasting judgements that will only really matter in a couple of fights since you can melee whack most of the bosses to keep it up longer than 10 seconds anyway. I see Rags and Golemagg being the most affected by not having that talent.

Retribution as mentioned is even more reliant on the PRNG for doing damage. The skill changes make tanking easier but I don't think they make you a good enough tank to replace a warrior in high end raids but it might put them back up with bear from druids.

As a warrior I'm very much looking forward to playing with a paladin that has the new blessing of sanctuary. I block a lot and more damage is more aggro for me even if it is tiny. I love the improved thorns talent as a warrior and I prefer retribution aura over devotion most of the time when tanking as well (and if you can get improved thorns with improved retribution and watch mobs do 60 damage to themselves, opposed to 38, everytime they hit you it's just pretty).

The talent changes did help stop some of the PvP cheese of Bubble/Blessing or Protection (if you aren't getting hit by a lot of magic damage) by putting them on the same recently shielded cooldown.

But the changes to the base skills did more to diversify paladins than the talent trees do. Paladins will tank better because of skill changes the tree changes won't really effect that at all and they still won't be tanks in the end game instances unless you get a lot of threat out of that new self buff. I would have liked to have seen a protection talent that lets you judge a seal or something to work as a taunt. Sure put it at say a 30 second cooldown but put it in there for emergency snap aggro and give it to prot pallies so they are better tanks than other paladins. All other classes that do tanking at times have snap aggro skills (earth shock for shaman, it's dang near high enough aggro to count as a taunt and stoneclaw totem is a taunt as it puts the mobs on the totem for a little bit and gives you a chance to build more aggro on that mob which is all the warrior taunt does is put the mob on you for 2 seconds and lets you try and get more aggro than everyone else in that time).

The skill (not the talent changes) give paladins a little more control over their DPS but not much. But this was by far a worse talent rework than what hunters and druids got. You see hunters that use all 3 trees and use all the top tree talents. You still won't see holy shock paladins, you will only see Repentance on PvP paladins and you will still see most PvE paladins with 31 retribution and 20 holy but just no improved blessing of wisdom now.

Blizzard didn't fix any of the class complaints via talent changes (they did with hunters and with druids) they just gave us more of the same as far as paladins go and addressed some of the issues through skill changes but not many. There is a bit more DPS control from the changes to seal of righteousness and judgement of command, overall DPS is higher though it didn't really need to be and overall DPS of the 3 trees is a bit closer together than it had been (mainly because of the skill mechanic changes to righteousness). But they didn't do remotely what most of the paladins I know where hoping for.

[Legedi]

Even though I haven't played my 60 paladin for a long time, I've been watching all these changes closely. I have mixed feeling about these talents:

Imp Lay on Hands (2/2) - CHANGED
- Gives the target of your Lay on Hands a 25% boost in armor for 5 minutes and reduces the cooldown of your Lay on Hands by 10 minutes (up to 50%/20 min I assume)

This could be very powerful for a MT on raid bosses.

Unyielding Faith (2/2) - NEW!
- Increase your chance to resist Fear/Disorient by 5% (to 10% prob).

Good if you PvP

Improved Blessing Wisdom (2/2) - CHANGED!
- Increase effects of BoW by 10% (to 20% prob)

Can't get this unless you put more than 20 points into holy becuase Illumination is better.

Lasting Judgement (3/3) - NEW!
- Increases duration of Judgement of Light/Wisdom by 10 seconds (up to 20/30 prob)

Seems dumb see that judgements are refreshed if the paladin hits the target.

Holy Power (5/5) - NEW!
- Increases crit chance of holy spells by 1% (up to 5% prob)

Eh, if a paladin could get a lot of spell crit (like eye of the beast) this would be nicer.

Vindication (3/3) - NEW!
- Gives the Paladin's damaging melee attacks a chance to reduce the target's Strength and Agility by 5% for 10 seconds (up to 15% probably)

Weeee! another random ability! If I wanted this much randomness I'd just play D&D or something.

Eye for an Eye (2/2) - NEW!
- All spell criticals against you cause 15% of the damage taken to the caster as well. The damage caused bye Eye for an Eye will not exceed 50% of the Paladin's total health.

WTF, crit me for 2k damage so I can do 300 to you!

Improved Concentration Aura (3/3) - NEW! Sorta ...
- Increases effect of your Concentration Aura by an additional 5% and gives all group members affected by the aura an additional 5% chance to resist Silence and Interrupt effects.

Seems more like a PvP ability and in the protection tree. If a paladin is actually smart enough to stay with his group, run this aura, and heal and support his team you have an awsome paladin. Chances of finding a paladin like this in a PvP PUG = 0%

Pursuit of Justice (2/2)
- Increases movement and mounted movement by 4% (up to 8%). This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects.

Another bandaid. "Oh, paladins have no snares and can't catch runners? eh, just make them run faster." This is now a must for an PvP paladins.

Overall I don't think the talents are that great. That said, the combination of these talents with the other paladin changes could be ok. I think at the least the paladin will be less frustrating than before. Not that I'll ever play mine again, but I'm sure for many people: if you could last one year already this will be a nice change.

[Kevin]

Imp Lay on Hands (2/2) - CHANGED
- Gives the target of your Lay on Hands a 25% boost in armor for 5 minutes and reduces the cooldown of your Lay on Hands by 10 minutes (up to 50%/20 min I assume)

This could be very powerful for a MT on raid bosses.

Yeah something to think about over the old 15/30% for 1 minute. But even if you take a tank from 8K to 12K armor that takes you from 60% to 68% damage reduction (see this nice little calculator). So if you were taking 400 damage before you are taking 320 now. So yeah it helps and a crit that was 1200 damage would only be 960 damage with that increase. So you give a little more cushion to healing, you save one flash heal over a crit hit and 9 regular hits (which at 320 each still means you are healing pretty constantly anyway). But you also drained a paladins entire mana pool to put that on you. So you do it before the fight and drink up and have that effect for 4.5 to 5 minutes (depends if the boss will put you in combat while drinking) of a boss fight. Something that might be worth looking at doing but not that big a deal in my book. It makes the talent more useful because of the extra duration but it's still more a gimmick than anything. Though I suppose if you stack that on top of a greater stoneshield pot and you can have 71% reduction for 2 mintues of a boss fight and then the 68% for 2 and a half to 3 more.

Unyielding Faith (2/2) - NEW!
- Increase your chance to resist Fear/Disorient by 5% (to 10% prob).

Good if you PvP

Yeah 10% is better than zero, but I had the 15% stun resist talent on Gnolack for a bit (and even during some PvP) and it rarely made any real difference. If you get the resist in a 1v1 situation it can change the outcome. It still doesn't really matter much at all in situation where you are overmatched or undermatched. I'm just not a personal fan of two or more (depending on class) talent points in something that is so unreliable.

Improved Blessing Wisdom (2/2) - CHANGED!
- Increase effects of BoW by 10% (to 20% prob)

Can't get this unless you put more than 20 points into holy becuase Illumination is better.

Yep and the effect of the 2 points in it is the same as the 5 points that it used to take. So a good talent gets moved out of reach of 31 points in the other trees if as you said you want to keep the quite nice illumination.

The rest I've either already said the same thing or pretty much agree on. The problems paladins had were not really fixed and only addressed in passing in most cases. There were some nice PvP buffs and one minor PvP nerf (with the recently shielded addition) but I still don't see a 31 holy being that viable or even that much benefit. But I'll keep doing respecs on the test server to try things out, maybe I'm too pessimistic.

[Drasca]

Though I suppose if you stack that on top of a greater stoneshield pot and you can have 71% reduction for 2 mintues of a boss fight and then the 68% for 2 and a half to 3 more.&nbsp;
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Its important for the last few minutes of a boss fight, when bosses typically go beserk on damage to MT, and there's not likely much mana anyway. I'd say the talent is perfectly suited for its task.

WTF, crit me for 2k damage so I can do 300 to you!

Actually, reflective damage is obscenely useful given the paladin ability to mitigate damage and restore health. If I had a PvP pally, I'd seriously consider this.

Overall, I agree. Your talents stink. Maybe the guys that wrote nerfs for warlocks made your talents after all.

[Kevin]

Its important for the last few minutes of a boss fight, when bosses typically go beserk on damage to MT, and there's not likely much mana anyway. I'd say the talent is perfectly suited for its task.
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Which means that telent hasn't changed much at all then. If you consider the last minute or so the important time for it, the old talent lasted for a minute and did 15/30% armor versus the 25/50% armor now.

I'm not saying it's a pointless talent but the change to it really didn't do much, but you aren't really disagreeing with that.

[Rinnhart]

Another bandaid. "Oh, paladins have no snares and can't catch runners? eh, just make them run faster." This is now a must for an PvP paladins.
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Oh, but now we can skip the enchants and just get + stats on our boots! BEST TALENT EVER.