Bad Tactical Memes

[Darian]

Bored at the office on a week where we can't actually do any work because 2/3 of the office is on vacation, I was browsing some WOW-related sites I don't normally poke around on simply because I don't have time.

I was checking out the warrior tactics guide on wowwiki, when I saw something that made me pop a vessel:

Tanks are divided into two schools on holding aggro: those who prefer to sunder repeatedly, and those who use revenge as their primary method of aggro generation.

Speaking as the primary warrior in Avarice, this sentence just smacks of stupidity; revenge is NEVER the primary method of aggro generation, because it's entirely dependent on whether it gets triggered. If revenge lights up, a smart tank is going to hit the button regardless of what their opinion is on proper aggro management. The real division is between sunder armor and shield bash:

Sunder: higher rage cost, lower aggro generation, but perpetually available as long as rage is
Shield Bash: lower cost, higher aggro, but subject to cooldown and potentially dangerous to NOT have available precisely when you need it

For my part, the decision on which to use is patently obvious; if there are no casters arond, bash to your heart's content. Otherwise, bash casters when they're casting, sunder at will, revenge whenever able, and shield slam to burn rage.

Anyway, that quote above... this is information that's sitting out there on a heavily-used site which people who don't know any better might pick it up and take it as gospel. Is it any wonder I actually hear people repeating this nonsense in-game?

We should make an effort to catalogue Conventional Wisdom about this game which is garbage. Any other glaring examples? I can think of a lot of obvious ones regarding what a class is for or how a class should spec (all of which I consider specious, as there are not 8 classes per faction; there are 24), but I'm thinking more along the lines of specific tactics.

[MongoJerry]

PvP-wise, so many people have the mistaken idea that dot's break flag taps (AB or AV). This misinformation is particularly prevalent among paladins who try to break taps by using consecration, which is a dot which therefore does not break flag taps.

[Bob the Beholder]

PvP-wise, so many people have the mistaken idea that dot's break flag taps (AB or AV).  This misinformation is particularly prevalent among paladins who try to break taps by using consecration, which is a dot which therefore does not break flag taps.
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I have heard that while normal DoTs don't interrupt, Curse of Agony does. Mainly because CoA is implementedly very, very oddly, and each tick counts as a separate attack. Which is one reason why it stops doing damage when you die, or when the target stealths--the caster is unable to attack the target, so it just stops.

[Drasca]

CoA is implementedly very, very oddly, and each tick counts as a separate attack. ...  so it just stops.
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That's the theory. I think I've seen CoA interrupt against me, but it also stops when out of range.

[Icebird]

Sunder:  higher rage cost, lower aggro generation, but perpetually available as long as rage is
Shield Bash: lower cost, higher aggro, but subject to cooldown and potentially dangerous to NOT have available precisely when you need it
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I though when some warrior crunched the numbers, Revenge generated the most aggro per rage point, with Sunder Armour coming in second?

Chris

[bonemage]

I would say the wiki quote is an oversimplification. A good warrior should use the best skill at the right time, weighing it against other circumstances such as cooldowns and everything else in the fight. But, I could easily be classified as a warrior whose primary aggro generation skill is Revenge, and it's why I disagree with you on the point of it not being a "Primary" aggro skill. I don't disagree with you on skill prioritization.

I am not a raid tank like you, Darian, I do 4 or 5 man groupings (don't have a raiding guild) currently, and the approach is different. I'm trying to be sure I have just enough aggro on everything to not lose aggro, then the rest of my rage goes towards damage. In a raid environment, it seems that with one big target to hold for a really long time, the approach is to go for maximum hate, from start to finish, which is different than 5 manning. In a 5 man, rather than maximum hate, I go for minimum hate to get the job done so I can do as much damage as possible. Revenge is the most rage/aggro efficient skill, and is my tanking bread and butter. Also, as far as Revenge being triggered enough to be useful, when I'm tanking 3 mobs, in the cooldown time after a revenge, there's a nearly 100% chance I will block, dodge, or parry one of those 3 mob's attacks, allowing me to revenge again as soon as it is off of cooldown. With one, very powerful, possibly slow but heavy hitting mob, the story changes, and Revenge could NOT be considered a primary aggro skill, but against multiple mobs, it can be your primary skill. It should be noted that I am NOT a "taunt" tank, who relies heavily on taunt to put himself at the top of the list. Taunt is used to quickly and safely ensure that I am at the top of the hate list when taunt wears off, if I find I'm not at the top of the list.

So, I don't share your hatred of the wiki posting, and may likely be one of those warriors you're referring to (I think this topic came up on TeamSpeak while we were in WC together) who bring up that idea in game. I do take issue with Revenge not being considered a primary aggro skill. I use it so much that I feel that MOST of my aggro comes from that skill than any other single skill. That is why I would define it as my primary aggro generating skill, and why I would disagree with you when you say it is stupid. I would hazard a guess that the average mob gets 3-4 revenges, 1-2 sunders, 1-2 shield slams. So, in summary, I feel the wiki post is neither stupid nor garbage, just really, really light on details. Your tanking skill summary is much more accurate, and could only hope that more tanks read it. However, I consider your words "never", "stupid", and "nonsense" regarding Revenge to be wrong in some cases, and have tried to illustrate when and how they are in an effort to open up some minds on this topic.

As I am the main tank for the Lurkers on the Terenas realm, people might want to read some sort of rivalry between us. I'm not after that at all, I have a tremendous amount of respect for what the Avarice Alliance has done, and for what you have done, Darian. I see just a small part in organizing raids and parties, and have a tiny idea of what you deal with all the time. Hopefully, that dispels any feud thoughts that anyone might have. With that said, I'm merely trying to open up some minds on this.

[bonemage]

I though when some warrior crunched the numbers, Revenge generated the most aggro per rage point, with Sunder Armour coming in second?

Chris
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I think this is what you had in mind.

[Kevin]

The wiki is most likely refering to the shield block + sunder tanking method as that combo is 15 rage as well and will garuntee a sunder when you want one. Since tanking smaller stuff is about rage management and generating the 15 rage for another sunder my very likely take 5 seconds as well, the cooldown on those skills is likely up when have enough rage to use them.

I know growing up as a tank when I had improved revenge, especially before I had conc blow I often hit shield block just to get a revenge in as that is more aggro than a sunder is and turns out to be 91 vs 88 hate per rage so really essentially the same. So yes Gnolack was a revenge tank growing up as well and since always favored dodge and parry and defense when I could get it I eventually got revenge to light up pretty much constantly when tanking more than one mob even without using shield block.

I didn't really turn into a sunder monkey until they changed the improved sunder to lower the rage cost which was about the time my block dodge and parry were sitting at 30% + (they are at about 43% now) combined making revenge mostly always available as well.

Yes I would use a sunder early to help get more early aggro but even on multi mobs I would use the revenge to help hold other mobs if I could. Shield bash has always been used liberally (and it is the best on demand rage/hate since you need shield block to make revenge essentially on demand adding 10 rage).

Now I use sunder as the primary and don't try to force revenges to help but yes revenge gets used whenever I can use it. :)

[Brista]

revenge is NEVER the primary method of aggro generation, because it's entirely dependent on whether it gets triggered.  If revenge lights up, a smart tank is going to hit the button regardless of what their opinion is on proper aggro management. 

it may be semantics but it seems to me what you're really saying is that Revenge is ALWAYS the primary method of aggro generation, just that it's not always available. But still it's always first choice

Sunder:  higher rage cost, lower aggro generation, but perpetually available as long as rage is
Shield Bash: lower cost, higher aggro, but subject to cooldown and potentially dangerous to NOT have available precisely when you need it

Also Sunder = useful debuff whereas bash on a non-caster is a useless debuff. Plus Sunder = more subsequent Rogue/Warrior/Hunter threat (since you will hence hit harder) which may help if your main aggro rival is healer or spell dps. Finally Sunder labels the mob as under a certain amount of tank control which is very useful for the tank (scroll through, which one isn't sundered yet?) and for the dps (which one can I nuke?)

From Olon's post:

3. Sunder Armor - 1050 total hate.
4. Shield Bash - 930 total hate.

Skills by hate/rage efficiency on a single target (50% mob dmg reduction):
2. Shield Bash - 93 hate per rage.
3. Sunder Armor - 70(88) hate per rage.

For my part, the decision on which to use is patently obvious

Is this in the context of 40-man raids? If so you're probably right, if not then I don't think you've made an overwhelming case. If you think Sunder in the Scarlet monastery is a glaring mistake I'd be interested to know why. Most healers i know are delighted to see Sunder, it's a hell of a step up from Whirlwind and Cleave

[Darian]

But, I could easily be classified as a warrior whose primary aggro generation skill is Revenge, and it's why I disagree with you on the point of it not being a "Primary" aggro skill.[right][snapback]98187[/snapback][/right]

But, see... here's the thing. You can't say "I rely on this skill" when you can't rely on that skill. The argument isn't whether sunder or revenge is better -- because (1) it's not even an argument (revenge IS better) and (2) even if you're on drugs and think sunder's better than revenge, you're still going to hit revenge every chance you get.

In other words, I think we're getting semantic here; revenge is bread and butter, but it doesn't form the basis for your decision making. It lights up, you hit it. It's not even a decision you make.

I am not a raid tank like you, Darian

Misapprehension here: although I do tank in raids, I am more prone to be dual-wielding in battle stance in raids, and have been so for several months now as a few folks have surpassed me in terms of pure tanking gear. Most of my tanking remains in 5-man situations.

It should be noted that I am NOT a "taunt" tank, who relies heavily on taunt to put himself at the top of the list.

I'm glad to hear that; I'd be worried about you otherwise. ;D

However, I consider your words "never", "stupid", and "nonsense" regarding Revenge to be wrong in some cases, and have tried to illustrate when and how they are in an effort to open up some minds on this topic.

I'm confused, though; I didn't use those words to in any way indicate that using revenge was improper, under any circumstances. Not only is it the most efficient means of generating hate per rage, the fact that it does damage on top of that makes it almost a mandatory usage when it's available. My arguments are with the wiki (1) claiming that the debate is between sunder and revenge, when it's between sunder and bash, and (2) implying that there's any sort of an argument not to use revenge (which, by claiming the debate is between sunder and revenge, it does).

As I am the main tank for the Lurkers on the Terenas realm, people might want to read some sort of rivalry between us.

Pshaw. The only thing you said here that I even disagree with is that we're in disagreement. ;)

[Darian]

The wiki is most likely refering to the shield block + sunder tanking method as that combo is 15 rage as well and will garuntee a sunder when you want one.[right][snapback]98189[/snapback][/right]

I think you meant revenge where you said sunder up there. If that's the case, there's absolutely no explication of the "shield block first" philosophy in that section of the wiki article, and since the remainder of that section of the wiki is highly detailed in regard to application of tactics, I can only presume they weren't taking shield block into consideration.

In fact, later in that section of the article, the writer does go into a discussion of shield bash as a hate generator.

Shield block + revenge is, in fact, an awesome combo, although I would generally prefer to still use sunder first because I can apply it instantaneously rather than waiting to get hit (which, if other people are being monkeys, may never even happen -- you've seen me go ballistic because people have pulled aggro before I even had a chance to start locking down the mob, after all).

[Darian]

it may be semantics but it seems to me what you're really saying is that Revenge is ALWAYS the primary method of aggro generation, just that it's not always available. But still it's always first choice[right][snapback]98194[/snapback][/right]

It is semantics. :) If a tool is something you should be using regardless of whether you follow philosophy A (sunder) or philosophy B (shield bash) or even philosophy C (shield block + revenge), it shouldn't even be getting presented as a "matter of debate," which the wiki does.

Is this in the context of 40-man raids? If so you're probably right, if not then I don't think you've made an overwhelming case. If you think Sunder in the Scarlet monastery is a glaring mistake I'd be interested to know why.

I don't. The first thing I do to any mob I'm tanking, 40-man or 5-man, is Sunder -- unless it's a caster in the middle of casting, in which case I'll smack him in the face to get him to stop, then sunder. ;)

(Or, in some rare cases, if I have the rage, the mob really calls for it (the mana bubble guys in DM west are a good example), and the skill is available, I'll concussive blow first -- but only if I have plenty of rage, since my rage generation will be crippled for the next four seconds.)

[Kevin]

I think you meant revenge where you said sunder up there.  If that's the case, there's absolutely no explication of the "shield block first" philosophy in that section of the wiki article, and since the remainder of that section of the wiki is highly detailed in regard to application of tactics, I can only presume they weren't taking shield block into consideration.

In fact, later in that section of the article, the writer does go into a discussion of shield bash as a hate generator.

Shield block + revenge is, in fact, an awesome combo, although I would generally prefer to still use sunder first because I can apply it instantaneously rather than waiting to get hit (which, if other people are being monkeys, may never even happen -- you've seen me go ballistic because people have pulled aggro before I even had a chance to start locking down the mob, after all).
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yeah I meant shield block + revenge. And if the wiki wasn't using that then yep they are monkeys becuase that is the only way you can control it. I too also prefer to use sunder first for the exact same reasons. You need early burst hate too. :)

So yeah bunch o semantics. :)

[Icebird]

I have a level 25 warrior who is just starting to do his first bit of tanking (a couple of Wailing Caverns runs so far).

The fights have been mostly short with only a limite rage pool to work with. Shield Bashi (10 rage) usually lights up before Sunder, so its a tough decision whether to bash right away or wait for the Sunder.

If I have the time after a couple of sunders I switch to Shield Block. In both cases I try to hit Revenge when I see it light up.

I have learned that Taunting with an empty rage is kind of pointless. If you don't follow up with some kind of aggro generating move it goes right back to attacking something else.

In long fights (like MC) I imagine the plan is to get 5 sunders up as fast as possible (our guild uses that as the DPS signal on aggro sensitive mobs), then spam both Shield Block and Shield Bash whenever they are available with Revenge in between cooldowns.

Chriis

[Darian]

The fights have been mostly short with only a limite rage pool to work with. Shield Bashi (10 rage) usually lights up before Sunder, so its a tough decision whether to bash right away or wait for the Sunder.
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In most cases, there's no need for you to be starting a fight without at least 15 rage already in your pocket. You've got two methods of priming the rage pump before the mob starts reacting to you.

Of course, when you say "short fights," you could well be talking about "screw 'tanking' this, just smack it down" fights, in which case it doesn't really even matter what you do outside of trying to maintain best practices.

[bonemage]

I have learned that Taunting with an empty rage is kind of pointless. If you don't follow up with some kind of aggro generating move it goes right back to attacking something else.
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I completely disagree here. Yes, the target often will turn back to who it was attacking before, but it's FAR from pointless. 1) It gets you hit which gets you rage, 2) It gets you hit instead of the (likely) squishier target the mob was on first, and 3) It gets you hit so you have a shot at using Revenge. If you're low or empty on rage, that is a good time to use taunt if they are on someone else. You hit them, they hit you, hopefully that gives you enough rage for a bash, or if you're lucky, Revenge will trigger. Waiting to use taunt until you have enough rage to reclaim aggro for good is a very bad idea, as it hurts your ability to get said rage. If you're behind on aggro and out of rage, you're unlikely to get yourself back at the top of the list without getting abused/hit (unless you dual wield and go into battle stance which you often can't safely do). Also, though only gimpy warriors rely only on taunt (sadly, that's all some do), it is vital when used right. At higher levels, 1 or 2 seconds equals dirt nap for a priest, and taunt will give you 6 seconds to regain aggro or have the mob die.

Example: In BRD there are 5 elite humanoid pulls, which as a 4 man group at appropriate level, are really quite dangerous pulls. We used multiple priest Mind Control casts for CC/healing with the medics. We would kill the entire pull except for the mind controlled mob. After 2-4 Mind Controls, that one mob HATED the priest with a furious passion. That is a tremendous amount of hate to overcome. It is much easier to kill that mob than to reclaim aggro. Even without ANY rage, though, a warrior could keep his priest alive by spamming taunt as soon as it came off of cooldown (improved taunt helps a lot) if the priest moved away from the mob when it was taunted, and the warrior chased well. In practice what we did was taunt, conc blow, taunt, which gives 17 seconds of complete priest safety (should be enough time to kill one of those mobs) without the warrior ever truly reclaiming the top of the hate list.

However, in WC, the game plays a lot differently, and you could probably tank better while dual wielding in battle stance and using only sunder from all that rage. Plus, at that level, warriors can do great damage just with decent weapons and just regular attacks. The game changes a lot as things go in. When I was in WC and RFK, I didn't think defensive stance was any good, because I could not get rage fast enough for sunders unless my teammates sat around for a while. At that level, revenge doesn't trigger enough to be very useful, and the cooldown on shield bash makes it tough to lock down 3 mobs with just that, so sunder is really all you have. So when I was a warrior in my 20s and early 30s, I was convinced that battle stance dual wielding was superior at locking down multiple mobs than defensive stance. I still believe that's the case... but only in WC and the early game. It is just not so later in the game.

[bonemage]

Pshaw.  The only thing you said here that I even disagree with is that we're in disagreement.  ;)
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Well, I think we disagree on word choice/usage, such as how we define 'rely'. I don't think we differ on actual tanking tactics, just on how we would try to explain them.

So, when are you going to cap Synik so you can critique Durambar? :) GG's feedback usually doesn't go deeper than, "Yarr! Yah did a fine job!"

[Icebird]

To clarify my situation:

I don't have Tactical Mastery yet, so using Charge then switching to Defensive Stance wasn't an option. I probably could have stayed in Battle Stance the whole time and been just as effective, but I thought I should try and develop some good habits by practicing with the "no fun" stance.

I probably could have used Bloodrage more, but I found it useful to buff Battle Shout which *always* seems like its about to expire.

If a squishy is under attack, then yes, I would definitely use Taunt regardless of Rage. On the other hand there were many situations when I was competing with the other (lower level) warrior and a shaman for aggro. In that situation, Taunt without a follow-up would be pointless.

Chris

[Darian]

I probably could have used Bloodrage more, but I found it useful to buff Battle Shout which *always* seems like its about to expire.
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You say that as if bloodrage and battle shout are mutually exclusive... ;)

Regardless, the only time battle shout can even remotely be considered more important than aggro management skills is if you have a rogue-type in the party, and even then it's arguably a wash. Personally, if I'm in defensive tanking mode, I do not use it at all unless there's a rogue, feral druid, or hunter with a cat or raptor in the group, and even then it's an afterthought; my job isn't to do damage, it's to keep the mob's attention.

However, if you must use it, the optimal strategy is to activate it at the end of a fight, and let it carry over through the next couple of fights.

[bonemage]

However, if you must use it, the optimal strategy is to activate it at the end of a fight, and let it carry over through the next couple of fights.
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Agreed. I'm looking for word selection that I can disagree with here but I'm not finding anything. If I have 10 rage at the end of a fight, I'll use battle shout to keep the rage from being wasted.