Holy Shield versus Lightning Shield

[Quark]

Besides them destroying any idea of a tanking Paladin by further reducing the aggro they can generate (wow, their plate is real useful now), there's one thing in particular that has bothering me about the 1.9 patch.

Holy Shield is now a 31 point talent, and for its push up got no improvement. Of course, another problem is that now Holy Shield doesn't recieve +spell damage bonuses. Caydiem's word on this?

I asked about Holy Shield as well, and why +holy or +spell damage didn't apply to it while applying to other abilities. The response I received is that, under certain easily achieveable conditions and combinations, Holy Shield was devastating with + spell damage applied. Rather than decrease the effectiveness of the base ability and still have the problem later on, they changed it so + spell damage no longer applies to it. I'm aware this is unpopular -- as is any reduction in power -- but please understand that we don't make such calls unless they're absolutely necessary. They tested these changes time and again and the results with Holy Shield were unbalanced. I realize this sort of change is particularly unpopular with Holy Shield's move to a 31-point talent, but I do want to stress that the talent trees are primarily about giving players more options as they go deeper into a tree rather than becoming more powerful.

So we take:

Holy Shield (Rank 4)
320 Mana
Instant cast 10 sec cooldown
Requires Shields
Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec, and deals 130 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.

And let's compare it to:

Lightning Shield (Rank 7)
370 Mana
Instant cast
The caster is surrounded by 3 balls of lightning. When a spell, melee or ranged attack hits the caster, the attacker will be struck for 198 Nature damage. This expends one lightning ball. Only one ball will fire every few seconds. Lasts 10 min.

Paladin Benefits:
Costs 50 less mana
Reduces incoming damage
One more charge

Shaman Benefits:
Doesn't need a shield (read: don't sacrifice damage to use it)
Affects all, not just blockable
Affects 100%, not block+30% (block+60% if a paladin's specc'd for it, "lucky" and criticalled)
No Cooldown
More base damage
Damage can be improved through talents
Lasts 60 times as long (i.e can buff before battle and still have a use)
Recieves bonus from spell damage

Now if you wanted to just ignore the issue as a whole, you could justify the fact that Lightning Shield is innately better than Holy Shield because Shamans and Paladins are meant to have totally different skill sets. You may also justify Holy Shield being a talent compared to Lightning Shield being a skill in similar fashion to Blade Flurry and Cleave.

However, can anyone really justify Lightning Shield getting a bonus from +spell damage given the developers exact reasoning shown above?

As a side note, Lightning Shield says Only one ball will fire every few seconds, is this actually true? I've never observed a delay in damage intake from it, though I've never paid too much attention.

[Chesspiece_face]

I've thought a lot about holy shield in 1.9 and i've come to the conclusion that they should keep it with the same damage/block/mana cost/etc but make it a friendly targetable spell that allows the paladin to use the 4 charges and the increased block chance to block incomming attacks on the target you cast the buff on.

this allows them to cast it on themselves in exactly the same way it is used now but also gives them the ability to help protect other people in their parties. not only will this help them get agro back if they happen to be main tanking, but it also doesn't do so at the expense of Warrior tanking. If you have a warrior to tank you will still want the warrior and then have the Paladin assist them by blocking some of the damage going that way.

I'm sure there are probably some situations that may cause balance issues but i don't think they are severe enough that a remedy couldn't be applied by altering mana cost or charges slightly.

Edit: you would, obviously, only be able to use this when in melee range of the characters you are blocking for.

[Dozer]

Lightning shield only fires once every 3 seconds. No, it isn't broken. Holy shield doesn't have a delay.


Edit: although the point you are making is valid, and lightning shield probably shouldn't be effected with +spell damage either, your post comes off strongly as a "waaaaaaaaaaaa, shamans get all the cool stuff, paladins are boring" posts. :P

[Quark]

Lightning shield only fires once every 3 seconds. No, it isn't broken. Holy shield doesn't have a delay.

Okay, so that makes things a little better. However, Holy Shield has a cooldown of 10 seconds. Thus, Lightning shield can be 3 procs every 9 seconds, even if your chain casting it. It's 3 procs in 6 seconds for a single set (0, 3, 6). Holy Shield is, at most, 4 procs every 10 seconds. That's about a 17% advantage to Holy Shield in pure proc rate at best. The base damage difference of ~34% more than makes up for that. The various restrictions on Holy Shield and ways to boost Lightning Shield drive that further.

Edit: although the point you are making is valid, and lightning shield probably shouldn't be effected with +spell damage either, your post comes off strongly as a "waaaaaaaaaaaa, shamans get all the cool stuff, paladins are boring" posts.  :P
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If I wanted the post to be "wah, wah" I would have made it like that. I gave you a way out for the advantages Lightning Shield has over Holy. I gave you a way out for the fact that Holy Shield is a 31 point talent. A "wah, wah" post doesn't try to see the other side of it. I would have ignored any advantage Holy Shield has. I would have ignored different roles. I certainly wouldn't have asked for clarification on Lightning Shield's proccing.

There just isn't any justifiable reasons as to why one would get +spell damage and the other would not. Holy Shield, as it stands, can only ever get "better" by the tiny amount of damage reduction you can get from extra Block. Lightning Shield's damage can be doubled with the right equipment.

As for your "paladins are boring" comment, well, I stopped playing my Paladin at level 22 over half a year ago. I'd pick my druid for any task in the game over being a paladin. And that was long before this patch confirmed that Paladins aren't supposed to be in the front lines. Take that as you may.

[Drasca]

There just isn't any justifiable reasons as to why one would get +spell damage and the other would not. 
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Have you ever considered the existence of nature spell resistence to Lightning, whereas, there's no known way to resist Holy? I can think of alchemy item that absorbs it, but extremely little.

In terms of world pvp, I remember chatting with Alliance buddies that would carry nature protection potions around (fairly cheap to make or purchase) to absorb incoming shaman blasts. While I've seen holy prot pots, there's still resistence to nature and not holy damage.

[Arnulf]

I would really like to know the so-called "easily achievable conditions and combinations" the devs are talking about. Because I have played a protection-spec'ed paladin my whole (virtual) life now. And I have used Holy Shield in PvE and PvP alot, but I have never experienced any overwhelming advantage even with +spell damage equipment.

Another point is that the only classes that are affected by Holy Shield are warriors and rogues since they are the only ones who attack you with melee. Even a shaman can reliably tear me down without touching me once.

[Rinnhart]

but I do want to stress that the talent trees are primarily about giving players more options as they go deeper into a tree rather than becoming more powerful.

I'd love to hear their definition of "options". Imp. Ambush, Imp. SS, Mortal Strike, Shadow Burn, Shadow Form, Silence, Shatter, Vengeance, whatever the two handed weapon talent for shamans is called, mortal shots- half of the goddamn talent trees that currently exist do add "more options" but they also add immediate and drastic increases in power.

It seems that they've changed their design philosophy just in time for the paladin revamp. Why limit how many talent points you can get if there's no increase in power with deeper investment into trees? Why can we only get one 31 point talent if they aren't necessarily designed to be the best a tree has to offer?

[Rinnhart]

I would really like to know the so-called "easily achievable conditions and combinations" the devs are talking about. Because I have played a protection-spec'ed paladin my whole (virtual) life now. And I have used Holy Shield in PvE and PvP alot, but I have never experienced any overwhelming advantage even with +spell damage equipment.

Another point is that the only classes that are affected by Holy Shield are warriors and rogues since they are the only ones who attack you with melee. Even a shaman can reliably tear me down without touching me once.
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Why wouldn't they plow into melee with you? It's not like Holy Shield doesn't have a fantastically obvious spell effect and can't be purged like everything else.

[Artega]

It is fine, learn to play.

But, that little jab aside, this is what I think of when I see Holy Shield:

Shield Block for Paladins. They wanted something to be similar to the Warrior's Shield Block (which essentially forces Revenge, resulting in a quick one-two combo to generate significant aggro in a hurry), and this is what they came up with. It combines the defensive effects of Shield Block, along with the aggro generation of Revenge (assuming you're using Righteous Fury/Seal of Fury/Whatever of Pissed-off-ness.) You are ignoring the fact that Holy Shield's primary purpose is NOT to inflict damage. Allow me to repeat that AGAIN, just to be absolutely clear: Holy Shield is NOT a damage skill. It is an aggro skill. Combined with the aggro buff, it is designed to generate extra hate for the Paladin. The cooldown is to prevent the Paladin from spamming it in order to rapidly generate scads of hate (e.g. aggro monsters, autoattack, spam Holy Shield.)

And, don't compare Paladins to Shamans. They are radically different classes, with two very different purposes. Paladins are supposed to be able to tank. Their skills are geared to allow effective generation of aggro (while still being somewhat less than that of a Warrior's capabilities) and efficient, less-powerful heals. Shamans are less durable, and are geared towards dealing damage, with powerful, inefficient heals.

[Dozer]

Being a liitle more constructive to this thread:

Why doesn't Holy Shield in WoW work exactly the same as Holy Shield in Diablo II? A self-buff that Greatly increases Armor(defense) from the shield and dramatically increases chance to block - that seems like the PERFECT thing a paladin should get for a 31-point talent in protection. It works, too, with Blizzard's stated goal with the paladin-as-a-tank: no snap aggro.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rinnhart]

Thanks for the clarification, Artega.

And, don't compare Paladins to Shamans.  They are radically different classes, with two very different purposes.  Paladins are supposed to be able to tank.  Their skills are geared to allow effective generation of aggro (while still being somewhat less than that of a Warrior's capabilities) and efficient, less-powerful heals.  Shamans are less durable, and are geared towards dealing damage, with powerful, inefficient heals.
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Yeah! Don't compare the classes with unique skillsets that radically alter how the factions perform in PvE and PvP, not to mention encounter design. That's like criticizing racial abilities.

Crazy kids and your MTV.

[Artega]

Being a liitle more constructive to this thread:

Why doesn't Holy Shield in WoW work exactly the same as Holy Shield in Diablo II? A self-buff that Greatly increases Armor(defense) from the shield and dramatically increases chance to block - that seems like the PERFECT thing a paladin should get for a 31-point talent in protection. It works, too, with Blizzard's stated goal with the paladin-as-a-tank: no snap aggro.

Just my 2 cents.
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I'll trade you D2-style Holy Shield for Natural Resistance. Deal?

[Dozer]

I'll trade you D2-style Holy Shield for Natural Resistance.  Deal?
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Touché.

[Arnulf]

Why doesn't Holy Shield in WoW work exactly the same as Holy Shield in Diablo II? A self-buff that Greatly increases Armor(defense) from the shield and dramatically increases chance to block - that seems like the PERFECT thing a paladin should get for a 31-point talent in protection. It works, too, with Blizzard's stated goal with the paladin-as-a-tank: no snap aggro.
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Why can the warrior use his shield as a weapon and the paladin cannot? Paladins in D2 had Smite... and Charge too...

It all was fine when Holy Shield was not a 31 point talent. I think the first version of 1.9 seemed allright to me. I'm not too sure if Holy Shield was then a 31 point talent already. But the reasoning behind moving Holy Shield to the 31 point position and at the same time removing any benefits it might get from +spell damage equipment is a mystery to me.

So I'm asking anyone who was testing paladins on the official test realms: Did you find these easily achievable conditions (or combinations) that made Holy Shield so powerful like the developers said?

I did test the paladin on the test realms before they put up the second version of 1.9. I cannot say that Holy Shield was so powerful that it should get the 31 point requirement. Maybe someone on the Blizzard forums did and reported it? I would like to know.

Maybe one point to begin with investigating is that in 1.9 you cannot combine the Sanctity Aura with Holy Shield because that aura is now a 21-point talent in the Retribution tree. By the way you cannot combine Sanctity Aura with Holy Shock, the 31 point talent in the Holy tree, anymore either.

Maybe my viewpoint is just too narrow?

Having said all that, I still maintain that complete balance of 1on1 PvP (and to a lesser extent in PvE) in WOW is an illusion. There are so many things to consider; items, level difference, the advantage of surprise, latency, and last but not least individual playstyle. But I like the concept of stone/scissors/paper. That is to say that certain classes perform better against some classes (or mob types) and worse against others. Mixed groups should even that out.

[Quark]

Shield Block for Paladins.  They wanted something to be similar to the Warrior's Shield Block (which essentially forces Revenge, resulting in a quick one-two combo to generate significant aggro in a hurry), and this is what they came up with.  It combines the defensive effects of Shield Block, along with the aggro generation of Revenge (assuming you're using Righteous Fury/Seal of Fury/Whatever of Pissed-off-ness.)  You are ignoring the fact that Holy Shield's primary purpose is NOT to inflict damage.  Allow me to repeat that AGAIN, just to be absolutely clear: Holy Shield is NOT a damage skill.  It is an aggro skill.  Combined with the aggro buff, it is designed to generate extra hate for the Paladin.  The cooldown is to prevent the Paladin from spamming it in order to rapidly generate scads of hate (e.g. aggro monsters, autoattack, spam Holy Shield.)

So your saying the justification for Holy Shield not really helping much for damage reduction and damage output is its aggro? Okay, so you take 130 damage, that's some aggro there. Looking up Thottbot, I see an Apply of "337" for the highest Judgement of Fury (Holy damage causes more threat). Yes, you're right! Holy Shield was, in fact, designed to cause lots of threat in conjuction with Judgement of Fury, at 467 threat a block.

One problem. They got rid of Seal/Judgement of Fury and replaced it with Righteous Fury, 60% increase in threat from Holy damage. Now that threat per block has become 208. If you have the talents for Righteous Fury, 247. There. Now not only has Holy Shield been move up from 21 to 31 and had its damage potential stripped. It also has lost almost half its aggro potential.

And, don't compare Paladins to Shamans.  They are radically different classes, with two very different purposes.  Paladins are supposed to be able to tank.  Their skills are geared to allow effective generation of aggro (while still being somewhat less than that of a Warrior's capabilities) and efficient, less-powerful heals.  Shamans are less durable, and are geared towards dealing damage, with powerful, inefficient heals.
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Problem with your statement: Paladins can't really tank anymore. It's bad enough with 3 or 4 mobs live. It's going to be even harder when 1.9 comes out, because their aggro generation was nerfed (in more ways than just shown above). A paladin can tank one mob if everyone goes out of their way to make sure they don't get aggro. Because once a paladin loses aggro, it's very hard to get it back.

You may say "well, why did Blizzard do this and this and this with Pally aggro in 1.9?" Paladins can now do more damage while tanking, since they can use a Seal/Judgement while Righteous Fury is up (instead of just using Seal/Judgement of Fury). But the actual aggro generation has gone down.

Yes, I know some Paladins can pull off tanking fairly well if they're in a well organized group that does everything right. But make it a 4 pull, or have anything go wrong, and the paladin doesn't even begin to compare to a Warrior or a Druid. The simple truth is at this point, equally geared and skilled, I'd prefer a non-Feral druid over a Protection paladin for tanking. That's not balance.

[Quark]

Have you ever considered the existence of nature spell resistence to Lightning, whereas, there's no known way to resist Holy? I can think of alchemy item that absorbs it, but extremely little.

In terms of world pvp, I remember chatting with Alliance buddies that would carry nature protection potions around (fairly cheap to make or purchase) to absorb incoming shaman blasts. While I've seen holy prot pots, there's still resistence to nature and not holy damage.
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You do make a good point about Nature versus Holy fields. However, there is resistance to Holy damage. I've seen the screenshots showing it PvP, and if you want some PvE proof go solo SM Cathedral's bosses at level 60 -> you'll be resisting Holy damage every which way. Partial and Full.

The difference between Holy and the other schools is there is no way to increase your base resistance of 0 (that includes mobs, all mobs have 0 holy resist IIRC). Whatever chances you have to resist are determined by the base chances and your level. That is quite an advantage Holy has.

That advantage, too, is getting nerfed. With Spell Penetration entering the game, Nature Resistance can be mollified, as can any other resistance. So you put on some Spell Penetration gear, and you're back to the fact that Lightning Shield gets +damage while Holy Shield does not.

You guys have made good enough points to show why, at the base values, Holy Shield and Lightning Shield are valued as they are. You still haven't shown me why Lightning deserves +damage.

[Rinnhart]

Nicely put.

[Artega]

One problem.  They got rid of Seal/Judgement of Fury and replaced it with Righteous Fury, 60% increase in threat from Holy damage.  Now that threat per block has become 208.  If you have the talents for Righteous Fury, 247.  There.  Now not only has Holy Shield been move up from 21 to 31 and had its damage potential stripped.  It also has lost almost half its aggro potential.

I never said what Blizzard does makes any sense that you or I can see. I couldn't see their reasoning for allowing the Blademaster's Wind Walk to allow him to move through units, but they assured me it was there. Somewhere.

Just remember that things that look bad on paper won't necessarily be as bad as they look in-game. (They'll probably be much, much worse.)

[Drasca]

That advantage, too, is getting nerfed.  With Spell Penetration entering the game, Nature Resistance can be mollified, as can any other resistance.  So you put on some Spell Penetration gear, and you're back to the fact that Lightning Shield gets +damage while Holy Shield does not.

You still haven't shown me why Lightning deserves +damage.
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Penetration... right... that very useful in face of a zillion ways to interrupt the caster, and no spikey damage from lowered resists. I'd like to see some more anti-interrupt/silence/stun-resist equip myself. Won't likely happen. Even with cloth casters, spell penetration is questionable right now. What shamans or paladins are going to put on spell penetration gear? However, Nature resistence is still easy to get (through items or class skills), and Holy is almost non-existent.

I mainly point out the resistence difference ( nature is easily available, holy is not. Level / Base resistence only ) because paladins can now crazily use their instant holy damage abilities on demons, and therefore warlock pets. There is no way to defend against that, and even the Felhunter, the supposedly most anti-magic durable of the pets, only has base resistence to Holy. I call this placating cartman by robbing stan (too much southpark). Doesn't fix ____.

How much of the +damage do HS and LS receive? 100%? Part of that?. If +spell damage scaled extremely high from HS's +spell itemization, I'd be concerned if I was a melee'er with no holy resistence.

[Quark]

How much of the +damage do HS and LS receive? 100%? Part of that?. If +spell damage scaled extremely high from HS's +spell itemization, I'd be concerned if I was a melee'er with no holy resistence.
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Prepatch? Both 100%, but spread out over the charges. So each block was 25% for HS, each proc was 33% for LS.

Postpatch it's now 0% and 100%. I don't understand why something like 20/20, or even 20/30 or such, isn't an ideal solution. Give LS a slightly higher coefficient since it's meant to deal more damage, but if 100% is too high for one, it's too high for the other.