Terenas: Guild Alliance?

[VoiceMan]

I wanted to start a thread that focuses on our possible guild alliance. For reasons I still don't know, I was not able to log into Terenas after Tuesdays maintenance til 1 am Server time. As a result, I was not able to touch base with the people from Lost Souls. I hope to do that tonight, if possible.

I plan on telling them that we are open to the idea of an open, frank discussion between guilds regarding wants, needs, hopes, fears, etc. I think it ought to be open to everyone in the guild to attend. Possibly have a channel created, and also have us on TS. I think part of the challenge in a guild alliance is the fact that we'll be stepping out of our comfort zone. Most of us were strangers prior to joining the guild, but in time have learned to work together, and the process would have to start all over again with a guild alliance.

Again, I do not know for sure if LS is interested, but I will see if they are interested in setting up an in-game chat between guilds to talk about it. IF they are, I will try and find a time when we can do this, and would like input from anyone in the guild who might have questions, concerns, or ideas on what should be discussed, what should NOT be discussed, etc. I think it's important that both sides understand each other clearly. I will try and post relevant things in this thread as they develop, but this sounds like a good next step for us in testing the waters.

[Treesh]

Again, I do not know for sure if LS is interested, but I will see if they are interested in setting up an in-game chat between guilds to talk about it.  IF they are, I will try and find a time when we can do this, and would like input from anyone in the guild who might have questions, concerns,  or ideas on what should be discussed, what should NOT be discussed, etc.  I think it's important that both sides understand each other clearly.  I will try and post relevant things in this thread as they develop, but this sounds like a good next step for us in testing the waters.
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Thanks for trying to get a start on this. I'd type more right now, but I think I've pretty much summed up my thoughts (for right now anyway) in the other thread. Once we get a time and day set up to discuss it in-game if they're interested at all of course), I'll probably have more concrete questions and concerns than what I've already voiced.

[Alram]

Personally, I'd prefer having an informal 1 on 1 chat with a guild leader first. I do appreciate your efforts and the thought which you are giving the matter.

[Alram]

I have spoken with them, and so far it appears promising. Any Lurkers who are active on Terenas are welcome to join me in further discussion with them on Friday around 5:00 server time. We should be discussing this with their officers only; please do not initiate discussions with their general members.

Fair and equitable loot rules are important; they will be part of our discussion. Please give it some thought and make your views known to me.

[vor_lord]

I have spoken with them, and so far it appears promising. Any Lurkers who are active on Terenas are welcome to join me in further discussion with them on Friday around 5:00 server time.  We should be discussing this with their officers only; please do not initiate discussions with their general members.

Fair and equitable loot rules are important; they will be part of our discussion. Please give it some thought and make your views known to me.
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I think GG's post in the other thread is a good starting point for discussion. However, it is my opinion that detailed loot rules (or detailed rules of any sort for that matter) need to be in a written form. An internet forum is probably the most appropriate place to have the give and take, and revisions that such details should have. Any disputes can refer to the kept-up-to-date version of the document. While initial conversations can be done through in-game chat, a written document must ultimately result.

Do they have an online forum to discuss these things? If so, can we discuss it there? If not, can we discuss it here?

[bonemage]

Who will be able to make it at that time? I know Vman has family commitments that night, vor_lord and I rarely are on that early (it's right when I get home) but are trying to work it out, and Treesh has the Stormrage all girls suicide run. GG can't go as he is under orders of the highest authority not to lead the guild alliance. I know that Alram will be there, but he is... (how do I put this)... keyboardally challenged.

One of my concerns, is schedule. Is our later start time gonig to make 4 hours in ZG impossible for them? We need to discuss big raid night plans.

I agree with vor_lord that loot rules and heavy discussion should be taken offline in a forum. There has to be an official document.

[Concillian]

One of my concerns, is schedule.  Is our later start time gonig to make 4 hours in ZG impossible for them?  We need to discuss big raid night plans.

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Scheduling is also a concern of mine. If I could make 'east coast' like times, I'd be on Stormrage. I obvioulsy have no chance of being on to talk to anyone at 4pm Pacific when I don't leave work until around 5:30-6.

That was my #1 concern when I started playing and that is still my #1 concern due to how late I tend to play compared with most others, even on Terenas.

[bonemage]

Scheduling is also a concern of mine.  If I could make 'east coast' like times, I'd be on Stormrage.  I obvioulsy have no chance of being on to talk to anyone at 4pm Pacific when I don't leave work until around 5:30-6.

That was my #1 concern when I started playing and that is still my #1 concern due to how late I tend to play compared with most others, even on Terenas.
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I think at a minimum, we need to have overlap of about 4 hours, which is 8:30PM - 12:30AM, realm time. Many of us on Terenas can't commit to any earlier, and dropping a few players to include even many more others is entirely unacceptable. There is no reason why earlier, shorter runs can't be done by those from both guilds that are on at those times, or progress into UBRS with smaller numbers to be filled in by later arrivers would work, and matches up with the instance. I know that would really help Alram out, who is on earlier but can't stay up later. We do need at least 4 hours of around 20 players to make any headway into any 20 man instances. If we don't plan on making 20 man raids at least an early goal, then there isn't much reason for an alliance, as both guilds are UBRS ready as they are currently.

[bonemage]

Decided to keep a list of topics/points of discussion, with some of my opinions on the topic, feedback requested. It seems that we may only have Alram and myself, and that leaves me as the typist for tomorrow. VoiceMan and vor_lord are not likely to attend, and I'm a little iffy. Treesh, anyway to push back the suicide girls a half hour or so? We could really use you.

Loot: Should be ironed out offline in a forum somewhere, needs to be written so there is a reference to resolve disputes, and agreed upon by both sides.

Goals: What do both sides hope to gain from the alliance? ZG? AQ20? 40 man raids if we get big enough?

Leadership: They want 2 raid leaders, one per guild, this is a good idea, but needs to be ironed out concerning pulling. I think that the two raid leaders need to ensure/enforce that any members of their guild are playing right, and the leaders should work together to resolve disputes. We don't want a disagreement to be addressed in raid chat. Members with issues need to whisper their raid leader, and that raid leader take it up in whispers with the other raid leader if there is a problem. There will be disputes, but this is a way to address it without PUG style CAPS screaming matches. Dumb things are said, feelings hurt, friendships and alliances crumble in scenarios like that. We need to have a way to resolve conflicts in a mature, mediated fashion.

Schedule: Is there adequate time between their schedule and ours for progress to be made?

Culture: We need to maintain who we are as a group, and they want to as well. We need to play well, cooperate, and respect the other members of a group. Bad play, jerks, and loot-whores are all unacceptable things. We can coach players if they are mature, cooperative people who may lack in game skills. We can't coach people to be mature.

Tactics: Do they use a Main Assist? How is pulling handled? There should be a brief discussion on tactics, but it must be brief. A better idea of tactics will be gained upon playing with them. Pulling should be a seperate function from raid leadership, and there should be only one per raid. It may or may not be a raid leader, but one puller needs to be selected, accepted, and supported by both raid leaders and therefore the entire raid.

Edit: I'm unsure how detailed or how much they want to discuss in tomorrow's meeting. I figure this way, I can be prepared. They may just want to briefly touch base.

[Alram]

Who will be able to make it at that time?  I know Vman has family commitments that night, vor_lord and I rarely are on that early (it's right when I get home) but are trying to work it out, and Treesh has the Stormrage all girls suicide run.  GG can't go as he is under orders of the highest authority not to lead the guild alliance.  I know that Alram will be there, but he is... (how do I put this)... keyboardally challenged.

Anybody who is active in the Terenas lurkers guild is welcome to attend. I will be present and if you are unable to make it but have anything you wish me to address please let me know.

Of course it is no secret that I can't type worth beans. For years I have used voice recognition software. After reading the comment that bone mage made about my keyboard skills, I spent some time experimenting with running world of war craft in windowed mode and using my voice recognition software to enter chat messages. The experiment was successful and use of the voice recognition software significantly speeds up my chat. There is no way this system would function for me adequately while playing. However for purposes of chat only, it works. If a speed typist in our guild can be present who will type what I say in Teamspeak, that works too.

Also keep in mind that there will probably be future discussions with this guild that will present further opportunities for folks to talk with them.
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One of my concerns, is schedule.  Is our later start time gonig to make 4 hours in ZG impossible for them?  We need to discuss big raid night plans.

Good point. I will be sure to bring this up.
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However, it is my opinion that detailed loot rules (or detailed rules of any sort for that matter) need to be in a written form. An internet forum is probably the most appropriate place to have the give and take, and revisions that such details should have. Any disputes can refer to the kept-up-to-date version of the document. While initial conversations can be done through in-game chat, a written document must ultimately result.

The lurkers on Terenas have never had a written document that lays out the loot rules. We also have never engaged in long drawn out discussions about precisely how loot rules should be implemented. In spite of this we have a fair system that works for us. The major reason our looting system works is that we are mature people who enjoy playing together and treat one another fairly.

The idea of having a written document which lays out the loot rules sounds good on paper; however, I would prefer not to have a guild alliance made up of attorneys who refer to a written document for resolution of disputes. In fact I would prefer to have the loot rules be as simple as possible in order to avoid conflict and misinterpretation. Accordingly I propose the following modifications to GG's suggestions(items in quotes come directly from GG's post):

Base rule: You may win one blue/purple per run.  Further items of this classification may end up being yours because nobody else wants them, but you are limited to winning one of these items by Need per run.

1. green/blue BoEs: roll need if you need it on the toon you are playing, roll greed otherwise; discussions on whether the need to give the item to an alt or someone in particular who is not on the raid may be taken up after the roll, but the item's winner has final say.

2. All the BOP's, purples and important unique items such as pieces of the key to UBRS: everyone passes. The raid will then decide how the items are distributed. Initially this method might take more time. Hopefully, over time as trust evolves we may be able to progress to need rolls on such items.

3.

BOP repeatable quest drops (Corruptor's Scourgestones and the like) : roll need until you've gotten one on this raid. Roll greed thereafter. If you're already exalted with AD, PASS.

4.

Chromatic Scales, Abomination Stitchings, etc: If you need them, roll need until you've gotten one on this raid; shift to greed thereafter. If you don't need them (which includes not knowing what they're for), PASS.

In theory over time both guilds should receive equal loot distributions. We all know that there are nights or even weeks at a stretch when some people seem to win or lose all the rolls. We might therefore additionally consider some mechanism to address this should it become a problem.
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Do they have an online forum to discuss these things? If so, can we discuss it there? If not, can we discuss it here?

Their guild officer did not mention a web site to me, though I did not specifically ask him. They are certainly welcome to utilize this forum should they so choose.


Feedback is welcome.

[vor_lord]

The lurkers on Terenas  have never had a written document that lays out the loot rules.  We also have never engaged in long drawn out discussions about precisely how loot rules should be implemented.  In spite of this we have a fair system that works for us.  The major reason our looting system works is that we are mature people who enjoy playing together and treat one another fairly.

The idea of having a written document which lays out the loot rules sounds good on paper; however, I would prefer not to have a guild alliance made up of attorneys who refer to a written document for resolution of disputes.  In fact I would prefer to have the loot rules be as simple as possible in order to avoid conflict and misinterpretation.  Accordingly I propose the following modifications to  GG's suggestions(items in quotes come directly from GG's post):

So the remainder of your post is now a written document describing loot rules. While you are trying to keep them simple (which is good), they are even now in a state that requires they be written to fully absorb. I'm not sure I understand your comments about lawyers etc. I believe if expectations are clearly understood beforehand there will be fewer problems. This doesn't mean the document needs to be complicated. If the only knowledge of the loot rules is through informal chat discussion there can ALWAYS be misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Once a certain level of trust develops maybe it won't be necessary, but I don't think trying to describe even the level of rules you have posted now via in game chat or teamspeak is going to work for either side to understand them fully. They need to be read and absorbed, for example on your post ;)

[Alram]

So the remainder of your post is now a written document describing loot rules.  While you are trying to keep them simple (which is good), they are even now in a state that requires they be written to fully absorb.  I'm not sure I understand your comments about lawyers etc.  I believe if expectations are clearly understood beforehand there will be fewer problems.  This doesn't mean the document needs to be complicated.  If the only knowledge of the loot rules is through informal chat discussion there can ALWAYS be misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Once a certain level of trust develops maybe it won't be necessary, but I don't think trying to describe even the level of rules you have posted now via in game chat or teamspeak is going to work for either side to understand them fully.  They need to be read and absorbed, for example on your post ;)
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Your point is well taken. Thank you.

[VoiceMan]

I do think we need some sort of guideline that both guilds agree on. I don't want a thesis-sized book of rules. If that's what it would take to make an alliance work, then I don't want to be involved in an alliance. We've all expressed a desire to find people much like ourselves, and if Lost Souls turns out to be a nice fit with us, then much of this will be taken care of. We, as a guild have done pretty good with loot, but I know I got REALLY hacked off one day over a loot issue on an instance run, due to me thinking we had an agreement going into a roll, so I followed what I thought was the agreement, when it wasn't viewed that way by others in the party, and I didn't have a chance to win the item that I really wanted. And that was just a Lurker five man. Having some good guidelines will help eliminate alot of that. I think the guidlines need to be agreed upon by both guilds, which means they likely will be designed by both guilds. I don't think it's appropriate for us to go to them and say....."Here's how we'll do loot." But, first things first...we need more information from Lost Souls on how they handle loot. We need to remember we're still in the very early stages of talks, and a full-blown alliance may not even materialize out of these talks. Once we find out more about them, and how they play, and what they hope for in an alliance, then we can move forward with the more detailed issues.

[Kevin]

I will likely be online. But as mentioned I will attempt to stay out of things as much as possible. I'm willing to chime in in guild chat or something on things that I might see as major pitfalls but as mentioned I don't want to be in the middle or the heart of this. There is another issue for me though. When we first started to ally with CA on Stormrage I had more panic attack issues. When the Basin folks started to be in guilded/GEM more often I had more panic attacks. When we added House Harpell in I had to log out a couple of times becuase of people showing up in the chat channels and it overwhelming me. Sure I'm in a leadership position there now but the adjustment period is longer for me. I still struggle more than people know at times.

Had I wanted to be at the heart of it I would have taken guild leadership back from Alram on any of the occasions he offered it back to me. No, Terenas will remain the server where I can just sit back and relax and put arrows in things. :) That is very easy to do when I trust the people that are making the hard choices so much and when I know how much time and effort can bet put into those choices.

The modification to the BoP's is cool with me too. The rules I had were also there to speed things up on runs (and really the wording is Darian's but it was just putting into words what we basically already do). Early on speed isn't the big concern so more discussion is better. What you have up there is basically how the the early 5 mans started for us on Stormrage (though you only had roll or pass). All the BoP's were passed on. When the new dice were added we knew each other well enough that BoP items basically became, if you need it (i.e. you will wear it a lot) you roll need. If you don't need it but would use it you roll greed. If you would only sell it or DE it you pass. If everyone passes you roll greed and you can sell it or have it DE'd. Lately it's pretty much been DE and roll for the shard as that is almost always more valuable. The BoE's can always be discussed after they are picked up so rolling greed on them isn't a huge deal. A lot of my BoE wins get sharded anyway or see one turn on the AH then get sharded if they don't sell. The raiding is what added in the one item of this type or that type deals.

My goals - Have 5 mans be easier to get for everyone, including the lower level alts. Have spontaneous raids be easier for everyone. Have a shot to get into ZG soon and MC later if we find another guild to ally with or if we get big enough in our own two guilds.

My schedule - I can be available more on Terenas if I'm available less on Stormrage. I'm probably still playing the game too much as it is so Stormrage will likely see a cut back either way.

Leadership - I'm OK with the two raid leaders at the start I realize they have been burned before and this is to help comfort them. After we get more comfortable, one raid leader is more than enough on the smaller raids. In places like ZG and MC you will have class leaders to deal with the little things that each class has to deal with. The raid leader designates the strats, the key people and arbitrates any issues. Now some guilds have a position that is raid leader. We aren't that formal. The raid leader is the person who organizes the raid pretty much. They have final say on stuff but they follow the guidelines that get layed out.

So the sooner we can get away from two raid leaders the better. I lead raids, I follow raids. Basiners lead raids, Lurkers lead raids, CA folks lead raids, House Harpell folks lead raids. People from all 4 guilds join and follow them. Doesn't matter what guild you are from. To me the two raid leaders says well we don't really trust you guys I just want that gone as soon as possible.

Oh and what I've done on Terenas lately hasn't been leading. That's just been providing info that I have and you guys asked for. I've never tried to dictate how things should work, just the ways I've seen them work and let us do what we thought was best after that.

Tactics: Not worried about it beyond wether they like to designate an MT and an MA. If they prefer to have warriors pull or have hunters pull. I know that our guild seems to prefer to have the hunters pull. In the smaller raids on Stormrage the warriors prefer to pull (I prefer to pull with my warrior, I pull with my hunter on Terenas because you guys seem to prefer that). In MC it is hunters that pull (mainly because of range). In ZG we still usually have the warriors pull though not always, I want a hunter pulling the bat packs because of how fast they move and how many there are. The instant arcane shot + range makes that better than the wind-up and shorter range of the warrior. But we don't need much more than basic philosophies.


Just some thoughts.

[bonemage]

One reason I support a written list of guidelines is to prevent confusion. By having a written, official list of guidelines (I prefer guidelines over rules, as there should be lots of flexibility, to take advantage of the fact that we're all mature adults), misunderstandings can be prevented. If we ally with a guild as mature and responsible as ourselves (which is what we hope, anything less we won't ally with), then rules won't be needed to protect ourselves from loot-whores and greedy players. We're hoping to not ever group up with any of those. But confusion and misunderstanding can be seen as malicious by some, however well meaning, and then things get treated as if there was malicious behavior, and the loot drama is just as bad, and potentially relationship destroying. Rules are used to protect players from other players, we need guidelines to protect us from confusion, misunderstandings, and miscommunications, not from players.

When (it will happen) there is a dispute, the guidelines can be referred to see who might have made a mistake, so that person can be corrected, so they don't make that mistake again and that both sides understand there was no mean intent. Guidelines can also be revised if they are found to be lacking. Without a written list, it could be debated forever and lots of blaming can occur, even when there was no fault at all. The end result could be just as bad as if there was a ninja looter, or a greedy guild.

I think we need to continue to do what we have been doing. That is to be sure any item goes to the place it is most needed and will be used the most, with fair distrobution. That is our standard. A set of guidelines will put all of us on the same page, and help prevent confusion based loot drama, and only enforce. Also, please know who else you might be rolling against, know their gear, know their talent spec so you have a better idea who might need what more.

An example:
1)Conc and Durambar are both warriors.
2)I use polearms while whirlwinding, but usually am sword and board (protection warrior).
3)He uses polearms in his primary gear setup as the Mortal Striking God of DPS that he is.

If I only knew parts 1 and 2 from the list, I might think I have just as much right to the Halberd of Smiting that just dropped than he does. Since I know point number 3, I know that he has far more claim to it than I, and I hope to actually see that item in his hands (and know that I'll be passing on it if we ever get into ZG and it ever drops), even though I would look super cool wearing it in Org, because it will be used so much more by him than by myself.

[VoiceMan]

GG, we appreciate your help and knowledge immensely, and it is not lost on us. However, speaking from my perspective, I would like to allow you to keep Terenas the place you can go, kick back, relax, and stick arrows in things. Please don't feel any pressure to carry any more anything regarding your time on Terenas than you want to. We're glad to have both you and your bride as regulars, and the help in more than one way is great.

[bonemage]

GG, if you want to give insight by being involved in the chat tomorrow, I think the only way to do that without (even unwillingly) being thrust to the front of the guild alliance is to join us on TeamSpeak only. We can relay everything that is asked, so you have full access to all that is going on, but keep you out of the channel in which we'll be talking. You can offer as much or as little as you want, and also keep you entirely behind the curtain, which is in line with what Treesh has put her foot down on. I wouldn't dare try to break that, and she has no way to physically harm me. :whistling: I'm hoping this will be a suitable compromise between you wanting to help, and knowing you shouldn't be leading.

As far as GEM/GuildAds causing additional strife, I think it can be something you can ease into. Even if we officially get the alliance going and adopt a mod to assist with that, I think you will be fine to not use that mod until you feel comfortable with more members of the other guild.

Part of the culture on the realm that I want to preserve is that Terenas is always free of responsibilities (besides shooting things) for you, and that you can always party with Treesh. You being heavily involved in two guild alliances on two different realms will really kill the fun for you. Let's keep Terenas more like a hot tub for you and Treesh. Come, relax, and feel only the responsibility to empty your quiver into nasty things. Opening up ZG, AQ20, MC, BWL is not worth the price if we kill the fun, family feel we have on Terenas. :wub: for you, Treesh, and the whole guild.

[Concillian]

A good example with a flaw, I'd pass it to someone else because my analysis suggests it wouldn't be an upgrade, since by then I should have TUF. It does look cool though.

It would need about a 7% proc rate to break even with TUF, and TUF would still be better for rage generation. I can't find proc rate info anywhere, if it's 10% maybe I'd want it.

The point is sound though:
We'd like a guild where we can eventually get to the point where the looting 'guidelines' are not necessary. Where we can make decisions based on what is best for the group. Ultimately that would be the goal... however I think when you're talking about 30+ people and very rare items you have to worry about the bad apple. ONE loot dispute can take down a couple months worth of work in building a guild alliance.

It is always the hope that we could recognize it as an isolated incident, but I've seen too many stories of terrible drama over a single misunderstanding. In the back of my mind I think that one of the reasons Sir_Die doesn't hang with Terenas more was a loot issue on the DM East run he was on, for example. I think he was upset, but nobody realized it. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that there was an issue there. It's not always easy to recognize when someone is disappointed with a loot system. Written guidelines are a way to at least be sure we have a true system.

[bonemage]

A good example with a flaw, I'd pass it to someone else because my analysis suggests it wouldn't be an upgrade, since by then I should have TUF.  It does look cool though.
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You're right, that's the 4th level of knowledge, knowing someone else' future gear/talent plans/expectations. :) It will take awhile to double the number of people that can do that, and we might not ever get to full trust situation, especially without a guide to reduce the drama. Still, knowing what gear you have and want/need helps me prioritize warrior drops, and if things move forward, I plan to inspect the other guild's warriors, and discuss what they're hoping for and their talent specs/plans. Then I'll know if I have equal claim to the item or not, and hope that they would do the same. Open communication about what people want to get or plan on doing won't hurt at all.

Even now among the Lurkers there is still a little frustration. I was not entirely happy to lose a great offhand pseudo-tanking weapon in the form of Dal'Rends Tribal Guardian, since I knew that Rogoll was a dagger rogue who had a great offhand weapon in the Distracting Dagger. I didn't see it as an upgrade for his rogue. He has decided to complete the Dal'Rend's set and respec as a sword rogue. Even with a lot of knowledge of who you might be rolling against won't completely stop the drama. Now I'm glad I lost the roll, as it will be better used by Rogoll as a sword rogue than the use I would get out of it. I still stand a good chance of getting one of my own anyway. I use this as an example that even with as well as we know each other in the Lurkers now, we're not without some contention when it comes to loot. Loot disagreements won't ever go away, even with the best of people and a great deal of trust. We still have different opinions on things, and the more we can do keep things from getting ugly the better.

So, with that in mind, I'd like to clarify a bit on the BoP drop rolling guidelines, I don't think these conflict with what's been posted, but added detail:

Need: One win of this time per run. Only choose this if you haven't won using Need before, and if it will be part of your Primary gear set.

Greed: Choose greed if you've already one a Need roll but would still use this item, Primary or Secondary gear. That way any that haven't won and need this item for their Primary gear set will get preference. Roll this for any Secondary gear items, only refraining if you find you're winning lots on this against competition. If you have no competition and find a lot going your way, you might want to check with the raid if they're OK with it, and be sure it is gear that will be used.

Pass: The item is useless to you, will be DE'd or vendored. If everyone passes on an item, an enchanter should loot the corpse and DE the item, a seperate roll will be handled. We've been having the enchanters need or greed this because we would discuss on TS or party chat prior to them passing, but might want to change that. Enchanters, don't be too fast on the looting, in case someone is still debating in their head or would like to discuss and the time expired. Drinking can be done with a proper wait.

Shift-click looting shouldn't be done in a raid to prevent non-enchanters from looting an item that has been passed by all. We might want to try Master Loot with a blue threshold so each BoP blue drop can be discussed at the end of the raid or while travelling. This will largely depend on how they feel about the loot rules.

[Treesh]

Treesh, anyway to push back the suicide girls a half hour or so?  We could really use you.
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I will see what can be done. :) Also, with me being there, I can speed type what Alram is saying over TS. There may be a few typos here and there, but I'll get most of it out almost as quickly as he can talk. Well, slightly slower, but as long as there are a couple of pauses here and there, I'll be able to keep up. :)

Edit: I'll be there at 5.