Terenas: Guild Alliance?

[vor_lord]

I did post the Lost Souls raid rules yesterday, and requested feedback.  I incorporated feedback I received yesterday. We also discussed loot rules last week.  I thought that everyone had had their say.  I felt time was of the essence and did not wish to delay further. If I erred in this regard please forgive me. I am also more than willing to step aside and let someone else handle the matter if they so choose.

With regard to the carryover, I think that it is a fine idea within a guild, but when we start raiding with several guilds and different folks going at different times it is probably impossible to track. I thought that I had addressed it, but I overlooked it in my email. As soon as I get home, I will send another email clarifying our position on "carryover."
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I don't think there is any real reason for worry. There's no reason these can't be adjusted as go forward, and we need something ok in place for Friday. I don't think you erred in that regard -- things aren't set in stone and I think we have a pretty reasonable starting point.

It's a trial run and an ongoing discussion, not a contract. I think you're doing a fine job handling it.

[bonemage]

I did post the Lost Souls raid rules yesterday, and requested feedback.  I incorporated feedback I received yesterday. We also discussed loot rules last week.  I thought that everyone had had their say.  I felt time was of the essence and did not wish to delay further. If I erred in this regard please forgive me. I am also more than willing to step aside and let someone else handle the matter if they so choose.

With regard to the carryover, I think that it is a fine idea within a guild, but when we start raiding with several guilds and different folks going at different times it is probably impossible to track. I thought that I had addressed it, but I overlooked it in my email. As soon as I get home, I will send another email clarifying our position on "carryover."
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I know that there were objections to the carryover clause, but as I can't find them in this thread, they must have been in game, in chat, or on TeamSpeak, enforcing our need for a written record. No written objections in this thread were given to the "carryover" clause, so Alram can't be faulted for not addressing it.

If I remember correctly, we agreed while in the ingame chat with the guild officers of Lost Souls to have a zero sum point system for 20 man instances, and no point system for UBRS and under instances. The "carryover" wording leaves room for a different point system to be introduced, and all the headaches that go with it. I think if we address that, things should be just fine. I'm pretty sure it just means something like this, "be aware of the poor slob whose been here every week and hasn't gotten crap since mid-October, if you've had recent upgrades and the two of you want the same item, you should yield to the poor slob."

[Alram]

Relevant stuff is spilling over from here into the "Terenas Friday, February 3, Please get your responses in soon Thread"--you'll want to read that too.

[Alram]

On the official site Terenas boards there is a recent post which reads in part:

I'm hoping that those of us in small guilds can start working together to access some of the currently unavailable endgame content. 

Read the thread here Take a look at the links in the thread as well.
Before responding let's discuss it some.

[Concillian]

On the official site Terenas boards there is a recent post which reads in part:

Read the thread here Take a look at the links in the thread as well.
Before responding let's discuss it some.
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My response in that thread was before you posted here, sorry.

They are a VERY new guild. They were posting in the Terenas forum about recruitment and getting signatures to form the guild only a few weeks ago, I think it best to explore what we have going now fully before having any dealings with anyone else, especially a brand new guild.

Edit after his reponse to my post: This guy seems pretty idealistic. "A" for effort, but his comments tell me that his goals are set very high and in my opinion too open ended. He seems to want to make a pool of guilds people can pull from to raid, and that would be a complete nightmare to manage.

I definitely think we should steer clear of this guild until their own dust settles, which will likely be well after we've shaken out our own current guild alliance prospects.

[Treesh]

Before responding let's discuss it some.
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He's right that an alliance can work, but just posting a general "Hey, ally with us for more phat lewts" probably isn't going to lead to a true alliance that has any kind of stability. It's too idealistic and much too soon considering even he says that his guild is still in the embryonic state. He may have the best intentions, but to me, it really looks like a call to loot whores rather than getting an alliance of good people to see the big content. Maybe I'm just a little jaded today though. ;)

Edit: And it just doesn't really seem like he's got a clue at how much work, effort, and time is needed to make it work, even with compatible folks, much less something like a pickup alliance. An alliance with Lost Souls and/or Synergy feels to me much more likely to happen with much less drama and fuss than what Ratatosk is doing. I like the Lost Souls folks that we played with. I don't know what kind of idiots Ratatosk's deal will bring in. The fewer idiots and chumps I have to deal with, the happier I am. :)

[bonemage]

On the official site Terenas boards there is a recent post which reads in part:

Read the thread here Take a look at the links in the thread as well.
Before responding let's discuss it some.
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Ratatosk is idealistic rather than realistic. He has a noble goal, but it's better to have a core group of players and build on that before sending an open invite to all jerks who've been booted out of their guilds for being what they are. We're certainly NOT in the right spot to get involved in this. We have plenty of work already before us.

There will probably come a time when I'm interested in recruiting more people and guilds to play with us (whatever tag they wear), but it has to be organized with a schedule in mind so people know at a glance what to expect for raiding, and people have to be introduced to the core of the group slowly, or you run the risk of losing your group identity. I think WE'RE moving too quickly, but things happened this way, so we have no choice but to deal with what we have. So if we're moving quickly down a rocky slope, Ratatosk is in full free fall. He seems nice enough, perhaps in a bit when we're ready for more players we can check up and see if he still plays...

[VoiceMan]

:o What?? You don't want to work with chumps?? Dang...I guess that means I had better switch realms, eh? :whistling: :lol:

[VoiceMan]

I think the timing is all wrong right now for us to even consider this. I like what Ratatosk is hoping/wanting to do, but with everything we're already invovled in, I don't think we should even give it any thought right now.

[Alram]

Thank you for all the feedback, unanimous in opinion.

[Alram]

I have had an in game chat with Mystique, an LS officer who is organizing their side of the raids. We have agreed to use a joint channel for the use of impromptu group formations. To use the channel type: /join Lostlurkers
Mystique is spreading the word in his guild. It will not be limited to 60s--any level Lurker can use it.

Both Mystique and I hope that people will take advantage of the opportunity.

And just in case you wondered, their guildmaster is looking at Guildads.

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In communications with all Lurkers thus far there seems to be virtually unanimous agreement on the direction our alliances should take. More on this in a couple of days.

[Treesh]

I have had an in game chat with Mystique, an LS officer who is organizing their side of the raids. We have agreed to use a joint channel for the use of impromptu group formations. To use the channel type:  /join Lostlurkers
Mystique is spreading the word in his guild. It will not be limited to 60s--any level Lurker can use it.
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We need to make sure that all raid leaders and raid assistants realize to not use that channel as the CTRA channel. It should be for chat only and those without CTRA shouldn't have to put up with the spam that CTRA will generate in that channel.

[Alram]

I received this message from Dieserae:

Rogoll,

How did Lurkers last ZG run go?  Ours did not go smoothly due to the lack of skilled players.

I am of the opinion that success in these types of matters comes from consistency.  We enjoy playing with your members because of your skill and character.  So we would like to deepen our existing alliance by doing split raids on a more consistent basis.

Also, the possibility of an MC run with Synergy and Lurkers is something that is worth considering.

Thanks,
Diesirae

I sent the following reply:

Hi,
As I told you the very first time we spoke, the Lurkers are involved in the formation of an alliance with another guild with whom we raided last Friday, 2/17. Although everything did not go perfectly, we were pleased. It is obvious to us now that we need to focus our energies in raiding with the same group of folks consistently in order to complete raid objectives in the most efficient effective manner. Since the only time a large number of us can play currently limited to Friday nights we feel it will split our energies too much to try and work with both of you at the same time. So, we have decided to concentrate on raiding with the other guild. However, on nights other than Friday you are more then welcome to whisper me (BTW, I also play a level 60 mage, Magead) and if I am free I will be delighted to join you in a raid. I don't think we feel ready for MC yet, but definitely in the future perhaps we can get back together for larger raids.

Regards,
Rogoll

[bonemage]

I think that it might be worthwhile to let Diesirae know that a big reason we didn't enjoy raiding with his group was that several immature players came with Diesirae's group. We really won't want to raid with them again until the quality of players goes up. I think he needs to know that part of why he's having trouble finding mature, skilled players is that he drives those types of players away with some of the wankers he brings. There is more to our preference to raid with Lost Souls than just being spread too thin, and I think Diesirae should be informed of this, so hopefully he works on fixing it.

That said, the voice communication thing is still a serious issue with Lost Souls. We also are not yet filling a full 20 man ZG raid between the two of us. No-shows are a big concern. Feero and Vasska made an honest mistake, and we missed them, but that's not what I'm referring to. We were lucky that ZG didn't fall apart last week, as we benefited from more Lurkers than we originally anticipated, but we were still under manned. It's one thing to have to back out of a raid that you have signed up for, but something entirely different when you just simply don't show.

[Alram]

Here is the latest email from Mystique and my reply. You will notice that it refers to a website I created today which I hope will facilitate improved communications and signup for raids. edit: You will not be able to see the calendar for the upcoming raid unless you join and are logged in. Lostlurkers

Hello again.
1. _A joint site_
having a joint site will facilitate
There are currently a few options that I am aware of.
a) http://www.thepumpkinking.com/
This is not a guild site. It is a site created by a member of  the Lurker Lounge. It has the advantage of being a neutral site where anybody from our respective guilds does not have to feel like they are "joining" the other guild.  The well-designed forums already exist.  The disadvantage of thepumpkinking.com is that the site itself has nothing whatsoever to do with WoW, and also some people may not care for the theme and appearance of the site.
B) http://www.lurkerlounge.com/
This is also not a guild site, although it hosts forums which are used by members of the site who have formed guilds.  As you know we currently utilize the site for our guild. The advantages of lurkerlounge.com are that it is a well established stable site with threads and articles of interest.  The disadvantage is that in order to post on the lounge you have to become a member i.e. a lurker.  We do not wish anybody from the Lost Souls to feel uncomfortable about having to become lurkers in order to form an alliance with us.  Perhaps this is actually not a concern on your part in which case you are most welcome to join us there.
c) http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?Guil...06&TabID=594274
In the middle of typing this e-mail, I decided to set up a guild test site at guildportal.com.  I am very pleased with the way it looks.  We can either share the site I set up, or better yet--you can create your own site and our guilds can form an alliance and share calendar events and forums. It is easy to set up and has a lot of nice features. I actually did this site on the spur of the moment and you are the 1st to know about it. I will let my fellow guildmates know about it--they will hang me if I don't, but please don't publicize the site until we are in full agreement over whether we'll use it and how.

2. _Zul'Gurub Raid Guidelines_
Please take the time to read the post I created on the site entitled Zul'Gurub Raid Guidelines at:

http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?Guil...TopicID=2061515

If there is anything you wish to modify or add, please let me know. It should not be considered to be a finalized document, but rather a starting point. I think it incorporates everything we have discussed thus far plus some.

3. _Suggestions for improvement of the Raid Management_.

In our UBRS raid Mogoraindyn learned that she couldn't heal and be raid leader at the same time.
In our ZG raid Durambar bit off more than he could chew by calling the pulls, leading the raid, doing the guild rolls, and explaining all the encounters.

We therefore suggest that 1 person lead the raid: create the parties, run ready checks, handle CTRA announcements, etc. while another person calls the pulls and strategies.

We need to find a balance between nobody having assigned crowd control  targets and having crowd control assignments take too long.

4.  2/24
At this point we have 4 Lurkers signed up for 2/24; I am sure we'll have more. I am predicting 8-10; we shall see.

Stay in touch.

Rogoll AKA Alex


Lenard Schmidt wrote:

>
> Hi, thanks for the feedback, we're liking you guys too, as to your questions,
>
> 1 cool we'd be up for that
> 2 if you can get a joint site that would be great, i've been trying to get something going myself, but what i don't know about web design could fill books....lots of books
> 3. any tips or help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
> 4 will do what i can to get 10 + standbys
>
> John
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al" <jlex1374@earthlink.net>
> To: "Lenard Schmidt" <lenardschmidt@optusnet.com.au>; "Olan" <djggsg@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:02 AM
> Subject: Raiding with you guys
>
>
>> Hi,
>> I'll send you a longer more detailed email later; my time is limited atm.
>> 1. We like you guys and would like to do a weekly raid with you.
>> 2. I am learning that this takes a lot of coordination, time and effort. I think it would help if we had a forum where all our members could go and read up on particulars. I'd be happy to use your website when you get one, or you can use ours or we can use a neutral forum. Thepumpkinking.com has been offered to us as a neutral site for joint posting of our guilds if you like.
>> 3. There are ways in which we can improve&nbsp; our efficiency and effectiveness in large raids in ZG--more on that in a later email.
>> 4. On 2/24 we will not have our main priest, Necrali. If you can bring 2 priests we can still do ZG, otherwise we might need to go elsewhere.
>>
>> Rogoll AKA Alex
>>
>

[Alram]

The new Lostsouls website
Now that we both have sites at guildportal, I have sent them an invitation to an alliance so we will be able to share a forum and events calendar together.

[Treesh]

Well, Lost Souls has splintered. Draconic Vendetta has now joined a raiding guild so it looks like we are back on our own. So, we need to discuss "what now?" again. Do we see if KotD wants to tackle Molten Core the same way they've done ZG? Do we just want to keep things as is, with those lurkers who are able to make the KotD raids just keep making the runs with KotD?

[vor_lord]

Well, Lost Souls has splintered.&nbsp; Draconic Vendetta has now joined a raiding guild so it looks like we are back on our own.&nbsp; So, we need to discuss "what now?" again.&nbsp; Do we see if KotD wants to tackle Molten Core the same way they've done ZG?&nbsp; Do we just want to keep things as is, with those lurkers who are able to make the KotD raids just keep making the runs with KotD?
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I've had quite a bit of correspondence with Mordekhuul about us. They are slowly growing their guild carefully, taking on people who've raided with them for a while and shown they are good.

This is what he had to say:

We are potentially adding 2-5 to our guild soon from folks that have raided ZG with us.&nbsp; We only add to the guild if we have gotten to know someone, and the raids have been a great way to get to know some folks.

Once we are large enough to field the core portion of a 40-man, we will begin considering potential nights for MC.&nbsp; Either replacing a 20-man night for it or dropping a 20-man for a 40-man night (Fridays for instance).

He told me earlier they were strongly considering Friday nights since that is when most of us are most available.

As far as our plans, in some ways I am relieved. I liked a lot of the LS/DV folks but it was too hard to get them to organize in a manner sufficiently to work well. Plus, they were randomly inviting lots of people (some of whom are not ready) and causing us to lose spots.

I believe that if we want to lead 20 man raids, we could do it like the Keepers do. We run it and PUG out what we're missing. Then we gradually accumulate enough people to come regularly, filling in missing slots as we do so. Then we are fully in charge and won't be left feeling like we do all the work in a lopsided alliance. We'll be doing all the work, but at least it won't have this illusion of equals in it so we can make decisions how we want to do things.

Second option is to again look for an allied guild. This time pick one with their own active website to ensure we can communicate out of game.

For myself personally, I am still enjoying our own Lurkers UBRS/Strat/Scholo/BRD/DM runs. We have a lot of work to do for people getting Dungeon 2, and some up and comers still needing basic blue gear. The last couple times we've taken along a single person outside the guild. It has been a lot of fun to show them how it's done, give them some coaching, and watch their jaws drop as we mow through everything efficiently and then beg us to join the guild :P

Whatever people want to do I'm happy (hehe I'm getting a Benediction I'll be happy for a while). I'll start running with the Keepers as regularly as possible and hope for a MC opportunity with them, and I'll keep pumping up the Lurkers to give people more chances (in particular I'd like to see Jandrey get some opportunities to help tank for them on Saturdays as I know he misses out on a lot of stuff we do). I've still got plenty of alt interest, and between those two it will probably carry me to the expansion if we don't get something else going.

[vor_lord]

Oh, and I just talked to Deadpriest in game. He's now GM of Draconic Vendetta. The only level 60s are him, Syonn, Darclocke, and Darcless. I told them they are welcome to join us any time and he's grateful for that.

So tomorrow remember that there might be a couple people to help fill in groups from them.

Have fun folks! I'll see you next week and it's my time to have a lot more playing time for the next two months.

[VoiceMan]

Yeah, my first inclination is to work towards the 20 man content much like KotD does. There's always a number of guilds present, but Morde is clearly in charge of the raid, and it's a Keepers raid. With us able to consistently field 13-15 60's, most of which are geared enough to take on the 20 man content, I think we can start working at filling the other slots with PUG people. I think we may be able to bring the 3 left-over 60's from DV, and then we'd only need to fill a few slots, and build alt lists for back-fill when folks can't come. I have no doubt it would be a lengthy and sometimes painful process. I'm certain it took KotD some time before they were able to consistently build an effective raid, but it's doable. I also know that there's a ton of work put in by the raid leader for these things...Morde spends alot of time looking for people to attend, including spamming channels to fill the last couple of slots with PUG folk, and while I don't envy who gets to do that, I think it may be our best bet to see ZG and AQ20 regularly, and hopefully MC someday down the road.

So far, our efforts with other methods haven't panned out so well. I know Necrali and I are fostering our relationship with Keepers as best we can, and will continue to do so. I would like to see Lurkers be the main contributor that provides KotD the numbers needed to move from the 20 man content to the 40 man. Take their 20 people they can field fairly easily most nights....and add our 13-15 solid folks, and we have the makings of a good core group.