I'm steaming....

[Premezilla]

Noob, fold Q8 preflop.  But that is incredibly unfortunate- Only three cards help him on the river, the 2 remaining Qs and a 9. :/

Whatever rules there are about poker (like throwing away a 2-7 offsuit or whatever) are thrown out at our cross-country meets. My friend who beat me plays so.....WEIRD-ly it's impossible to strategize. He will actually tell you what cards he has in his hand. He will honestly tell you when to fold or not based on his hand. But he also lies about things like that too, so nobody knows when he is or is not bluffing.

But hey, when it happens to other people it's hecka entertaining.

[Archon_Wing]

Whatever rules there are about poker (like throwing away a 2-7 offsuit or whatever) are thrown out at our cross-country meets.  My friend who beat me plays so.....WEIRD-ly it's impossible to strategize.  He will actually tell you what cards he has in his hand.  He will honestly tell you when to fold or not based on his hand.  But he also lies about things like that too, so nobody knows when he is or is not bluffing.

But hey, when it happens to other people it's hecka entertaining.
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Once I played 27 offsuit and got quads. Hah, they never saw it coming. :D

But that's ok, the "correct" strat is actualy supposed to work better against bad players. ;) Although it certainly doesn't seem that way at times. ;p

[Xiuhcoatl]

Games rely on some combination of skill and luck. Popular gambling games (cards, dice, mahjongg...) tend to rely more on the former than the latter, but no amount of skill at a game can overcome a streak of bad luck or someone else's streak of extreme good luck. That said, it is in the best interest of all players to learn a game and master their skill at it to earn better odds of "winning", but NOT to cheat. Cheating is for dishonest people, and anyone who claims to be your friend who cheats is the worst kind of enemy there is regardless of how "entertained" or "good" s/he made you feel at the time.

What draws most people to gamble? The chance to win is the popular answer. Most gamblers enjoy a payoff as a reward for their superior skill and luck at playing a game. Addicts rely on the thrill. Some gamblers enjoy the social factor putting only a small emphasis on monetary gains and a large emphasis on sharing pleasant experiences with friends. Most gamblers enjoy the games they play. No gambler admires, respects or likes a cheater.

Luck is a tricky subject. By "luck" I refer to the quality of beating the odds more often than not, over a given period of time. For example, a lucky person might find 2 OZ's in 1 year of playing Diablo, where an average person might find 1 OZ in 3 years of playing and an unlucky one doesn't find any in 5 years. That same lucky person then moves on to D2 and is given 3 SOJ's by the Lord of Darkness after 10 runs, while the other two might get one after 100 runs. Moving on yet again, our lucky lady finds herself in the World of Warcraft and frequently rolls higher than anyone else in her party for purple drops. That same "lucky" person then goes to Vegas and plays poker for 2 hours (with honest players), and due to her complete noobishness in the game loses to skillful players but due to her "good luck", she doesn't lose much. Licking her wounds, she decides to have lunch but, wait, she thinks, "Look at that marvellous spinning wheel!"

There are betting strategies for roulette, but for the most part, luck rules that game. (If you are feeling lucky in Vegas, then roulette is the game to play.) So our lucky lady postpones lunch, slaps down fifty bucks for a pile of pastel pink chips, plays for half an hour, and walks away with over $500 in black, green and red chips. Without any knowledge of roulette strategies, she took advantage of a lucky streak and bet on patterns of numbers. She finally makes it to the cafeteria where she misses the Grand Lunch Buffet by 10 minutes and has to pay $10 more for dinner prices, but she doesn't mind. After all, she has become absorbed in the flashing lights on the keno board while waiting in line.

Some professional gamblers tend to be luckier than other people. Most, if not all, successful gamblers learn to recognize "lucky streaks" when it happens to them and when it happens to other people so that they can adjust their play style accordingly. Professional gamblers respect the games they play and do not cheat. People who make a living by cheating at gambling are con-artists and "professional" cheaters; they are not professional gamblers.

As jahcs said, "playing smart is not cheating." Being skillful at a game takes a lot of practice, effort and experience, and using all of your resources (studying the lay of the cards/numbers for patterns, keeping track of played cards, aka "counting cards", reading the expressions of other players, knowing the odds of a situation, etc.) to win within the guidelines of the game rules (since "house rules" differ from establishment to establishment, I am refering to the rules that all players have agreed upon) is not cheating.

Do people cheat at gambling in Las Vegas? Indeed they do, and most of the cheaters are the ones dealing you your cards. Some of the employees working at casinos cheat for better tips rather than to win for the house. Despite having the "house edge" over people at nearly every game in their casino, some of them employ "mechanics", dealers who can stack a deck and deal "seconds" among other things to give the house more of an edge. Most casinos that use "mechanics" prey on casual gamers who couldn't spot a cheater even if they were paid. Casinos that use mechanics often earn a bad reputation and go out of business (Vegas World anyone?).

Despite what Doc stated, people who bet real life money in a game of chance do not want to lose it to a cheater, regardless of how entertaining the cheater might be. They want an honest chance to win or lose. If they merely wanted to buy entertainment, they would get tickets to a magic show where slight of hand and deception are welcomed. (Professional magicians are hard working people who excel at the skills they perform on the stage; although they are paid for performing deceptions and tricks they are no more dishonest swindlers than are authors of fiction compulsive liars. They should not be associated with con-artists or cheaters. Using slight of hand and tricks, such as marking cards, to change the outcome of a game is different.)

Is "card counting" considered "cheating" by casino personnel? Yes (at least it was 5 years ago), but many casinos allow you to bring a "players guide" to the black jack tables (they even sell the "basic strat" guides, about the size of a laminated index card, in their giftshops). :wacko:

Is card counting cheating? No. A good card player keeps track of cards, counts trumps, watches what other people play to estimate what cards of a particular suit they might have left, if any, etc. In most games, however, card counting must be done individually; it can't be shared. (i.e. in pinochle, Player A can't share her trump count with her partner, Player B, while her partner keeps track of aces and other suits.)

Are casinos allowed to "identify" cheaters without offering the accused an explanation? Yes. Innocent people have been accused of cheating and have been forcibly removed from casinos in Vegas.

Is gambling in Vegas worthwhile? Yes, the entertainment value in Vegas is well worth the visit, if you enjoy gaming, shows, shopping and eating. As a rule of thumb, the best casinos to visit for honest games are the new ones. After all, casinos that have just spent millions to build cannot afford bad publicity that dishonest dealers/players or "unrealistically" rigged machines will give them. ;)

[Occhidiangela]

Games rely on some combination of skill and luck. Popular gambling games (cards, dice, mahjongg...) tend to rely more on the former than the latter, but no amount of skill at a game can overcome a streak of bad luck or someone else's streak of extreme good luck. That said, it is in the best interest of all players to learn a game and master their skill at it to earn better odds of "winning", but NOT to cheat. Cheating is for dishonest people, and anyone who claims to be your friend who cheats is the worst kind of enemy there is regardless of how "entertained" or "good" s/he made you feel at the time.
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Xi shoots, Xi scores.

I stopped playing Casino black jack when they made every boot larger than two decks. Craps for me, a game where a combination of understanding the betting odds for each bet and how to manage a streak, and the fun that comes with the action, combine to create a very enjoyable game.

Occhi

[Archon_Wing]

Bluffing is fraud.

How could it not be?

You are lying through your teeth, intentionally creating an act of deception.

That is fraudulent.
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Wtf....

So if a Pk'er in Diablo 2 asks me where I am, and I lie, does that mean I am cheating? :D

Am I cheating if someone asks me what my cards are and I tell them a lie?

But your reasoning throughout your posts suggests that it's perfectly accetepable for me to steal and scam items from people. If one can scam others for real money, then certainly cheating fools in a video game becomes a trivial thing. If I take advantage of someone for their greed, then that's ok then, right?

Bluffing simply is a bet that is a guess that your opponent is weak and will not call. Sometimes it doesn't require deception; maybe the opponent's holding is so weak that he cannot make a feasible call. It is no diffrent from creating a diversion, or a false attack in a strategy game. You certainly do not want your opponent to have an accurate idea of where you are.

Perhaps gambling is a shady buisness, but really, which buisness is perfectly honest anyways?

[Doc]

Wtf....

So if a Pk'er in Diablo 2 asks me where I am, and I lie, does that mean I am cheating? :D

Am I cheating if someone asks me what my cards are and I tell them a lie?

But your reasoning throughout your posts suggests that it's perfectly accetepable for me to steal and scam items from people. If one can scam others for real money, then certainly cheating fools in a video game becomes a trivial thing. If I take advantage of someone for their greed, then that's ok then, right?

Bluffing simply is a bet that is a guess that your opponent is weak and will not call. Sometimes it doesn't require deception; maybe the opponent's holding is so weak that he cannot make a feasible call.  It is no diffrent from creating a diversion, or a false attack in a strategy game. You certainly do not want your opponent to have an accurate idea of where you are.

Perhaps gambling is a shady buisness, but really, which buisness is perfectly honest anyways?
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Cheating at Diablo is bad. It's a game. It has goals. And you play. For fun. You play with skill and daring. But it is an honest game. There is nothing at stake except your own pride.

Gambling is an intentionally dishonest act. For money. A lot at stake. You are attempting to seperate a fool from his money. There is somebody with money at the end of the game, and there is the fool. It is a shell game.

When playing with friends, that's one thing. You play for kicks and giggles.

When you are out to make a buck, you bring that money home.

[Archon_Wing]

That sounds awfully arbitiary. ;p

But I don't know; maybe it's diffrent where you live. Generally, I see the casino being the crooks. ;o

[GenericKen]

Cheating at Diablo is bad. It's a game. It has goals. And you play. For fun. You play with skill and daring. But it is an honest game. There is nothing at stake except your own pride.

Gambling is an intentionally dishonest act. For money. A lot at stake. You are attempting to seperate a fool from his money. There is somebody with money at the end of the game, and there is the fool. It is a shell game.

When playing with friends, that's one thing. You play for kicks and giggles.

When you are out to make a buck, you bring that money home.
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To set the record straight, it's not so much the money as it is the principle of the thing. Even a basic background in statistics will tell you how tragically unlikely losing 14 coinflips in a row is.

[Archon_Wing]

To set the record straight, it's not so much the money as it is the principle of the thing. Even a basic background in statistics will tell you how tragically unlikely losing 14 coinflips in a row is.
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Statistics also taught me that small sample sizes aren't that great. ;)

I've heard people going on downswings for weeks on ends, totalling thousands and thousands of hands, with tons of cash gone down the drain. Now, that's what you call horrible. That doesn't make losing 14 coinflips in a row less horrible though. Where do you play anyways?

But I understand why you would feel bad. You and I could care less about the long run, as we try our best to play perfectly (Not that I do!) yet get kicked in the nuts anyways. :mellow: Indeed, "it's a statistical anamoly" from someone does not really change anything.

On the other hand, I do have a friend that like gets sucked out every time I see him play, and I may have seen him win like several coinflips in total.

[kandrathe]

...
When you are out to make a buck, you bring that money home.
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I always find my winning strategy to be based on being able to compute rough probabilities on the fly in your head based on played cards, or straight probabilities. So for me, the trick is to be more conservative when it seems the odds are against me, and take more risks when it seems the odds are in my favor. No magic there. But you'd be surprised by the number of people who do not follow that simple premise. No real need for Mr. Spock like exact computations, just a general awareness of face cards played, and suits. I have nearly a photographic short term memory, so for instance at University, tests that required regurgitating facts or definitions were alway a breeze. It comes in handy for playing some card games.

My other strategy is a left pocket, right pocket strategy. My left pocket contains my stake, the right pocket contains the money I'm taking home and when I win large amount on a bet I take half the winnings and put it in my right pocket. If my left pocket gets empty I go home.

I'm not interested in becoming an avid/professional gambler, but the few times I've gone to *real* gambling establishments I've always done very well. I hate to feel like a fish out of water so I'm probably unique in that I use game simulators to practice weeks before hand. So much so I guess that I start to get the attention of the house in many cases, where the pit boss stands and watches me play, they change the dealer, change the dice, change the cards etc. Maybe I'm paranoid. In those places I stick to two games where the house has only a slight advantage, Black Jack and Craps. I love craps, such a simple game once you get to know how to play and the probabilities. One of the fondest memories of my life was being the shooter at a craps table in Vegas for 25 minutes straight and attracting a crowd of hundreds with the cheers and tears of joy from all the winnings.

Poker is a different game altogether. It is more psychological, but I would never condone dirty tricks to make a buck. That is why I only play it as a friendly game with friends for low stakes. Its' that slippery slope of morality and bad character, it starts with cheating at cards, or running maphack and before you know it your busted for peer-to-peer file sharing and serving 15-20 with all the other hardened criminals. :)

[kandrathe]

To set the record straight, it's not so much the money as it is the principle of the thing. Even a basic background in statistics will tell you how tragically unlikely losing 14 coinflips in a row is.
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I seem to have the opposite luck. When I gamble with my friends, I'm the one known for always pulling the ace out of the hole to take the pot. I'm always unsure though how much is luck, how much is skill (proper prediction of probability), and how much of it is that I'm the only sober one at the table (I quit drinking when I started working at being a father). :)

[Archon_Wing]

I seem to have the opposite luck.  When I gamble with my friends, I'm the one known for always pulling the ace out of the hole to take the pot.  I'm always unsure though how much is luck, how much is skill (proper prediction of probability), and how much of it is that I'm the only sober one at the table (I quit drinking when I started working at being a father).    :)
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Haha, I can imagine someone saying "well, being sober is cheating!" :D Well, I don't know about your luck, but chances are you push your edges at the right time. err... more correct than the people around you.

[Archon_Wing]

of the fondest memories of my life was being the shooter at a craps table in Vegas for 25 minutes straight and attracting a crowd of hundreds with the cheers and tears of joy from all the winnings."scum" like you, ya know, like noncompulsive winners!
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So if I go to a casino, and I see pictures of people banned from the casino; I'll just assume one of them is you. ;)

[kandrathe]

So if I go to a casino, and I see pictures of people banned from the casino; I'll just assume one of them is you. ;)
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They might have been pretty happy with all the business it attracted. I dunno.

I walked up to that table with $200 and walked away with $3000. Some of that was also winnings of bets placed on my behalf by high rollers enjoying my outrageous luck. There were many who did much better than I did on that lucky streak. I think they reserve the photos for repeat professionals who are obviously doing something sly whether they are caught at it or not. Again, being paranoid (and not wanting a trip to meet the wise guys in the back room), I try to be inconsistent and unpredictable.

[Doc]

You know who the real cheaters are...

People that pull out the deuce deuce at the end of a game and take the pot home. :angry: Now those guys, they are the real cheaters. They don't even try to make an effort to make an entertaining game. They don't work the table. They don't do much of anything other than be a warm body for the game. They are not the least bit charming or socially acceptable. They don't even bother trying to sell you something. You go through all that work of actually plying your trade and making money, and then some jerk whips out a Saturday night special and threatens to blow off your kneecaps if everybody don't clean out their pockets.

You can get away with anything if you are charming and genteel about it. But these guys are just crass. Robbing somebody outright is just plain rude. Bad manners. Dirty pool.

There is gambling and there is thievery. One is perfectly acceptable and socially refined. It has rules. There are social graces. There is an established right way and a wrong way of doing it.

Where do some people get off...

[Jester]

Most, if not all, successful gamblers learn to recognize "lucky streaks" when it happens to them and when it happens to other people so that they can adjust their play style accordingly.

Then most, if not all, successful gamblers are fooling themselves on this point.

Lucky streaks are a statistical phenomenon. They appear only by looking back at the data.

Unless someone is rigging your games, previous wins do not affect future odds, at least in the sense of luck.

-Jester

[Jester]

You know who the real cheaters are...
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People who cheat other people out of their money?

-Jester

[Guest]

Not really.

The key to being a successful gambler is playing against people willing to take take bad odds - either because they are emotional or because they arent smart enough to understand the odds.

Basically this is what a casino does.

Its also how some small time gamblers make a modest income by playing a few weekly poker games with "friends".

These guys are still gambling, but the odds are in their favor.

[Jester]

Not really.

The key to being a successful gambler is playing against people willing to take take bad odds - either because they are emotional or because they arent smart enough to understand the odds.

Basically this is what a casino does.

Its also how some small time gamblers make a modest income by playing a few weekly poker games with "friends".

These guys are still gambling, but the odds are in their favor.
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Are you replying to me? If so, no comprendo, mi amigo.

-Jester

[Guest]

I mistook your point, sorry.