Hamas

[whyBish]

The election of a Palestinian Hamas government is interesting on a number of angles:

- The 'west' seems to be all for democracy, but only if the right people are voted for
- The 'west'ern media seems happy to call the Hamas government a terrorist organisation, but a look at profiles of the leadership show that (regardless of terrorist actions) these are not foolish people. The leadership contains/contained a physicist, a surgeon, a philanthropist that built palestinian facilities etc.
- The election of Hamas, may give Isreal (and or the U.S.? (&co.?)) a legitimate reason to declare war on palestine, should the Hamas government continue with certain statements while in power.

Perhaps our foreign ministersaid it best saying (paraphrased obviously) that the democratic decision of the Palestinian people should be respected... and there are some things that you can say in opposition, that if said in government would constitute a declaration of war.

[Guest]

I dont think you have a good grasp on the situation. Mainly because you said this...

- The election of Hamas, may give Isreal (and or the U.S.? (&co.?)) a legitimate reason to declare war on palestine, should the Hamas government continue with certain statements while in power.

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Reason or not Isreal(and the US) dont want to declare war. Palistine is just a step above an occupied country as is. There is nothing to declare war on except the govement itself and that would make no sense because Isreal wants a stable govement there so it can try to come to peace terms.

Its really an awkward situation for Isreal, they try to make peace with Arafat and he refuses because he would lose authority at home if he had no enemy. Then when Arafat dies the Palastinians elect terrorists who believe they should take all Isreals land on principal.

So this election seems to have torpedoed the peace process for several years.

But the quote you used is a good one. I suspect Hamas may lose in the long run for having won the election. They have spent 20 years(maybe much more) complaining abuout the problems of Palistine - now that they are in charge they will be blamed like everyone else.

[Ashock]

The election of a Palestinian Hamas government is interesting on a number of angles:

- The 'west' seems to be all for democracy, but only if the right people are voted for
- The 'west'ern media seems happy to call the Hamas government a terrorist organisation, but a look at profiles of the leadership show that (regardless of terrorist actions) these are not foolish people.  The leadership contains/contained a physicist, a surgeon, a philanthropist that built palestinian facilities etc.
- The election of Hamas, may give Isreal (and or the U.S.? (&co.?)) a legitimate reason to declare war on palestine, should the Hamas government continue with certain statements while in power.

Perhaps our foreign ministersaid it best saying (paraphrased obviously) that the democratic decision of the Palestinian people should be respected... and there are some things that you can say in opposition, that if said in government would constitute a declaration of war.
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1) Hitler was sort of elected to power too, along with a bunch of behind the scenes deals, and most importantly he was damn popular among the Germans, most of whom loved him and would have voted for him no matter what. Just because we are a kind of Democracy, should not mean we are stupid. Well, some of us at least. I hope the ones that count are on that list, at least once in a while.

2) What is your point about these individuals being doctors and whatever else? No one claims they are idiots, however after reading this post, I am not so sure about you.

3) Israel does not need a *legitimate* as you put it, reason to declare war, as war has been declared against them a while back already. It is only the US gov't that is holding them back. Well, and the liberal morons in Europe.


Finally, why would we respect this decision? I don't see it. I am not surprised by it, considering the people who elected them, but to respect it would be silly and naive.



-A


ps. I hope this thread dies a quick death.

[DeeBye]

ps. I hope this thread dies a quick death.
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Agreed. Nothing good could ever come from this topic, as seemingly interesting as it might be.

[eppie]

3) Israel does not need a *legitimate* as you put it, reason to declare war, as war has been declared against them a while back already. It is only the US gov't that is holding them back. Well, and the liberal morons in Europe.
Finally, why would we respect this decision? I don't see it. I am not surprised by it, considering the people who elected them, but to respect it would be silly and naive.
-A
ps. I hope this thread dies a quick death.
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Respect or not. Nothing would change after these elections...neither with fatah nor with hamas. The palastines, don't have any economic means, and they are surrounded by walls and an army. Whatever good intentions they have, the world (US and ISrael, as well as other european countries) will not suply them with the stuff to make those ideas come true.
The only solution to the problem there is one country in which all persons (Israelis and palestinians) are treated equal.

[Occhidiangela]

The election of a Palestinian Hamas government is interesting on a number of angles:

- The 'west' seems to be all for democracy, but only if the right people are voted for
- The 'west'ern media seems happy to call the Hamas government a terrorist organisation, but a look at profiles of the leadership show that (regardless of terrorist actions) these are not foolish people.  The leadership contains/contained a physicist, a surgeon, a philanthropist that built palestinian facilities etc.
- The election of Hamas, may give Isreal (and or the U.S.? (&co.?)) a legitimate reason to declare war on palestine, should the Hamas government continue with certain statements while in power.

Perhaps our foreign ministersaid it best saying (paraphrased obviously) that the democratic decision of the Palestinian people should be respected... and there are some things that you can say in opposition, that if said in government would constitute a declaration of war.
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Elections do not make a democracy, nor do they guarantee a sound governmental structure. Quite the opposite, you need a sound social structure and social contract for an election to have meaning.

Elections are but one of many elements required to build a representative government. The critiques of democracy being a poor and self immolating form of government (versus a republic) include the dangers of public emotions as policy foundation. Emotion seems to me a driving force behind Hamas' recent electoral success. That is still no excuse for the "west" to declare war due to a party platform. As well to declare war on Vincente Fox for his blind support of invasion/illegal immigration assault on the US. (Whoa, wait a minute, there's a pregnant idea!)

I offer Haiti as an example of a place where an election (Aristide) didn't ensure that whoever won was a decent or legitimate ruler. Haiti remained and remains a basket case, even when the mob's choice took office. Aristide, within months of taking power, violated the Constitution on at least four counts. The mess (I refer to 1994, it has since repeated) led to a coup. Haiti had the advantage of being a nation state, but that couldn't save it from itself. It is still a ward of the UN and aid giving nations.

The issue of sovereignty for the Palestinians is an enigma wrapped in a riddle wrapped in a conundrum, to misquote Churchill. They aren't yet a sovereign nation state. They are a work in progress. I don't envy Hamas (or any of the Palestinian factions) the work they have ahead of them in establishing their sovereign identity, particularly as outside players will not let them alone to grow within their own political context.

The biggest risk Hamas faces is the risk any political party or political leading body faces, that of believing its own line of BS. That can lead to flawed policy, impractical energy directed at self defeating ends (see Arafat comment above) and an unstable policy base. We've had our share of such political bodies in the reasonably stable and sovereign land of the USA. (Among others, I refer to LB Johnson's crowd and the contemporary neo conservative clique.)

"Degree of difficulty" for the Palestinian Authority, having little economic foundation and no clear nation state status, goes up by an order of magnitude, or two.

As Ashock noted, the general policy since 1948 on the Arab side has been the premise that Israel as a nation state has no right to exist. (The Jordanian and Egyptian accomodations were heavily influenced by American bribery.) As of today, the model of "Might Makes Right" says Israel will exist. Hamas' platform, if we are to believe it on the "drive them into the sea" themeis a "Might Makes Right" platform absent credible might, unless allied players provide it. (Another analogue to Israel.)

They'll either get wise, or they'll get what the mob are apparently calling for: more war, in one form or another.

Joy. War can destroy a nation as well as "build one" from the ashes of conflict. :angry: Hamas risks taking its people on the path to self immolation. In that regard, Ashock National Socialist comment resonates, Goodwin's law has not been invoked just yet. :)

Whybish, I don't see why anyone "must respect" the Palestinian mob for their choice anymore than I respect the Haitian mob.

"Be careful what you wish for, as you are sure to get it."

As in America, one tends to get the government one deserves, which isn't always what is best for the country, when an election is concluded.

Occhi

[Guest]

Thats a bit disengenous.

While indeed historicaly Isreal hasnt helped Palistine, wealthy Muslim countries have not either. They prop it up just enough to keep the trouble brewing and a they funnel a great deal of the money they do send through Hama - a known terrorist organization.

Also you imply Ireal has Isolated they have border with Jordan too.


The Arab Muslim countries want a poor destitute Palistine just much as the the Irealies dont care about Palistine. It give the curupt leaders an easy way to divert attemtion from their own countries.

[Sir_Die_alot]

- The 'west'ern media seems happy to call the Hamas government a terrorist organisation, but a look at profiles of the leadership show that (regardless of terrorist actions) these are not foolish people.  The leadership contains/contained a physicist, a surgeon, a philanthropist that built palestinian facilities etc.
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I'm not sure how this makes a difference. Using those same qualifications Al'qaeda isn't a terrorist organization either. <_<

[ima_nerd]

I'm not sure how this makes a difference. Using those same qualifications Al'qaeda isn't a terrorist organization either.

That's not at all what he's saying. If you would read closer, you would see this

but a look at profiles of the leadership show that (regardless of terrorist actions) these are not foolish people.

He's saying yes, they are terrorists, but they're smart. Smart enough to know what they're doing, hopefully.

[Occhidiangela]

Respect or not. Nothing would change after these elections...neither with fatah nor with hamas. The palastines, don't have any economic means, and they are surrounded by walls and an army. Whatever good intentions they have, the world (US and ISrael, as well as other european countries) will not suply them with the stuff to make those ideas come true.
The only solution to the problem there is one country in which all persons (Israelis and palestinians) are treated equal.
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eppie

I disagree with that view.

What looks likely to change is the fupport for,and the credibility of, the dialogue between the Israeli government and whoever speaks for the Palestinian Authority.

If Hamas is not recognized as a credible party to talks, negotiations, and improvements of the accord that exists today, the situation will change for the worse as less leverage will be applied to Israel to keep change moving forward, and, for example, tear down that damned wall.

The solution you suggest may be two generations away, forty or fifty years, based on Israelis and Palestinians growing up together with a belief that they both have a similar right to live on that bit of real estate. How to unpoison the emotional ane intellectual climate in order to make that happen, so that such a belief is internalized, is well beyond me. If I could figure it out, I'd bring a Nobel Prize home and donate it to the Lounge. ;)

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I'm not sure how this makes a difference. Using those same qualifications Al'qaeda isn't a terrorist organization either. <_<
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I don't think Osama sees himself as a terrorist. That is a name given him by others.

Occhi

[eppie]

Thats a bit disengenous.

While indeed historicaly Isreal hasnt helped Palistine, wealthy Muslim countries have not either.

You are right, I made a mistake there. Where I said "other european countries" I meant other arabian countries.

[kandrathe]

eppie

I disagree with that view.&nbsp;
...
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I do as well. Fatah, PLO, and Hamas are just labels for collections of Palestinians. The Palestinian people need unity to decide how they will be governed, and by whom. It does not appear that Fatah is taking their loss in stride. If there is broad support for a radical political party like Hamas, then Palestinians will reap the consequences of that support which might mean the end of progress towards peace. I see this as a loss for not only for the corrupt PLO and Fatah, but for Hamas as well, since they have no choice but to appear either as they have been labeled and continue their anti-Isreal activities, or as weak and capitulate to Western demands to renounce violence and recognize Isreal's right to exist. If Hamas surrenders it's zeal, what has it become? If Hamas does not moderate, it will strengthen the position of Isreal's hard liners who nurtured and encouraged this divide in Palestinian politics for the last twenty years.

I think the existence of an independent Palestine stands at the fork in the road.

[Jester]

The Arab Muslim countries want a poor destitute Palistine just much as the the Irealies dont care about Palistine.

I think the Arab countries would be the first to support a real, lasting solution to the Palestinian problem.

It was one of the major demands in the '79 agreement between Egypt and Israel. It remains the strongest weapon in the propaganda arsenal of the Islamists who are trying to overthrow their governments. It is a perpetual thorn in their sides, and, while it might have some advantages, it has vastly more disadvantages.

No, pretty much everyone wants this situation resolved, especially now that Arafat is dead and Sharon is out for good. The only question is how.

-Jester

Addenum: That is not to say the rich Arab countries are terribly interested in forking over for the well-being of Palestinians. Greed is greed, and poverty is the Palestinians' greatest weapon. But that is a different thing from not wanting the problem solved.

[Jester]

I don't think Osama sees himself as a terrorist.&nbsp; That is a name given him by others.

Occhi
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I'm not sure Bush does either. Same deal.

-Jester

[Occhidiangela]

I'm not sure Bush does either. Same deal.

-Jester
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Nope, since Bush is the leader of a recognized national government and Osama is an extranational actor, not the leader of a nation state. Your old "legitimacy" line bites you on the nose. The rules were and are made for nation states. Fair or otherwise, that is the state of "the rules" are at present.

Cheers.

Have a Guinness, that was an unexpected opportunity. :)

Occhi
EDIT: What's a ruel?

[Jester]

Nope, since Bush is the leader of a recognized national government and Osama is an extranational actor, not the leader of a nation state.&nbsp; Your old "legitimacy" line bites you on the nose.&nbsp; The ruels were and are made for nation states. Fair or otherwise, that is the state of "the rules" are at present.

Cheers.&nbsp;

Have a Guinness, that was an unexpected opportunity.&nbsp; :)

Occhi
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Yes, in *my* opinion, Bush, for all that he is an criminal, incompetent buffoon, is not a terrorist.

However, there are lots of people who say he is a terrorist. That is not an uncommon opinion, albeit one flawed in the ways you have outlined.

He is considered a terrorist by many, and he does not consider himself a terrorist. That is exactly the situation Bin Laden is in, is it not?

-Jester

[Occhidiangela]

Yes, in *my* opinion, Bush, for all that he is an criminal, incompetent buffoon, is not a terrorist.

However, there are lots of people who say he is a terrorist. That is not an uncommon opinion, albeit one flawed in the ways you have outlined.

He is considered a terrorist by many, and he does not consider himself a terrorist. That is exactly the situation Bin Laden is in, is it not?

-Jester
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Pres Bush has done what Clausewitz warned against. See my sig.

Bin Laden believes as hard as or harder than Pres Bush that God/Allah is on his side. I am not sure which of the two is right on that score, if either, since I think He's on the side of neither of them. His patience is, thankfully for all of us puny humans, infinite.

Occhi

[Guest]

double

[Guest]

That's not at all what he's saying. If you would read closer, you would see this
He's saying yes, they are terrorists, but they're smart. Smart enough to know what they're doing, hopefully.
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Wrong, Its exactly what he was saying, perhaps its not what he intended though.

He said " The 'west'ern media seems happy to call the Hamas government a terrorist organisation, but..."

He directly implied that it shouldnt be called a terrorist organisation because it has smart people.

Now if he had said " The 'west'ern media seems happy to focus on Hamas being a terrorist organisation , but....", then you would have a point.
But as it is, the critiques you dont like, were correct.