Are you a domestic terrorist?

[kandrathe]

Jester was saying it correct when he wrote you will always have to put in effort to make a living.

No, both of you are wrong. The theory here is that you can try to earn at a rate greater than 100% of your daily cost of living. So, if that rate is 120% then for every five years of work you have saved for one year of retirement. That seems unworkable, so the rate really needs to be more like 150% to 200%. That way if you worked from 20 to 60, you should be able to survive by tapping into your "Potential Energy" from age 60 to 80 or so, adjusting for about a 3% to 5% increase in the cost of living.

The problems you are mentioning don't have anything to do with more government influence or higher taxes.

Who owns GM? How much of my money did they give to AIG? So you don't believe their is a marriage between corporate, and government usury.

They are cause by the fact that you and your countrymen (as well as many of us in western Europe) have for decades spend too much money (more than we had) and because we were in power we could use financial constructions to keep the rest of the world poor, and at the same time leach on there resources.

I'm going to have to declare BS on that one. Americans, pretty much up until WWII, only exploited each other and their own resources.

The world has changed and America and Americans can only survive with a little more smart government control.

Why would more of the same help us get less of what we have? The problem with smart government control is, "If the government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take away everything you have.", as was stated by Gerald R. Ford.

The libertarian way is fine if you live in the richest country in the world....but already now it wont work. A more prosperous India, China and other countries do mean a different division of wealth in the it this world.....sometimes you notice this directly (the crisis) other times it goes slower, but it will happen.

No, libertarian principles work no matter the size of the government, or economy. Look what Mart Laar has done in Estonia, just because he read Friedman's book "Free to Choose: A personal statement".

Not being a great Obama fan (for me he is also too right wing)...

:blink:

these protests today (or yesterday) are just ridiculous...

Which is what people do when they suddenly find themselves 25% to 100% poorer than last year. And, that is from the UK, where things are 10x more screwed up than in the US.

...you have been living on China's money for a long time and now that the government wants to do something people start protesting.

Um, and they have been manipulating the currency exchange and taking advantage of the US in other ways as well -- all with a knowing nod and a handshake with the Capitalists who've invested heavily in China's future.

Having some people pay a bit more taxes is too much government interference but when somebody spends billions on a war and lowers taxes it is all fine.....we just let the government bother money, just like we do...

Or, do it all -- raise taxes, print more money, and manipulate the bank rates again to make it all look good on the balance sheets.

..at least they are not interfering with our lives. <_<

You mean they are not housing soldiers in our homes. No, but let me review the other top nine "Bill of Rights"...

[Jester]

I'm going to have to declare BS on that one. Americans, pretty much up until WWII, only exploited each other and their own resources.

Funny you should mention BS.
Americans have been exploiting other people and their resources for as long as there's been a United States of America.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

Funny you should mention BS.
Americans have been exploiting other people and their resources for as long as there's been a United States of America.

You mean when they were known as British, French, and Spanish?

[Jester]

You mean when they were known as British, French, and Spanish?

You *conquered* them. Subjugated them by force of arms. Made them into protectorates, forced them from their lands, or subverted their legitimate governments. Who you conquered them from is somewhat immaterial, although in the cases of Mexico and Hawaii, you just took it right out from under the nations themselves. In the case of the indigenous peoples, the record is even worse, a forced relocation that borders on genocide.

The point, however, is about exploitation of people and resources. The US emphatically was *not* innocent in these affairs prior to WWII. Not even close.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

You *conquered* them.

Well, technically, no. Technically, my grandparents were enticed to leave Sweden to escape famine and persecution and emigrate to the USA, also enticed by unscrupulous land barons in the US who had stolen the land from the indigenous people. We got here in time to serve in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars, but we missed out on that whole manifest destiny crap.

And... what you talking about White Man? Like, Canada and Great Britain didn't participate in conquest?

[Jester]

Well, technically, no. Technically, my grandparents were enticed to leave Sweden to escape famine and persecution and emigrate to the USA, also enticed by unscrupulous land barons in the US who had stolen the land from the indigenous people. We got here in time to serve in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars, but we missed out on that whole manifest destiny crap.

Your claim wasn't about your family. Your claim was about the United States of America. Obviously, when I refer to "you", I mean the second person plural referring to the collectivity of your country, not to you personally.

... what you talking about White Man? Like, Canada and Great Britain didn't participate in conquest?

Nobody's said a word about Canada or Great Britain up until now. You flat out claimed that the US wasn't involved in it until at least WWII - which is patently untrue. This is my only point.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

You *conquered* them.

Tell that to the Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Goths, Huns, Franks, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Mongols, . . .

--Pete

[Jester]

Tell that to the Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Goths, Huns, Franks, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Mongols, . . .

I'm not saying it isn't the tune of history. I'm just saying the Americans have danced along like everyone else.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

I'm not saying it isn't the tune of history. I'm just saying the Americans have danced along like everyone else.

Yeah, but we had God on Our Side. :(

--Pete

[eppie]

Or, do it all -- raise taxes, print more money, and manipulate the bank rates again to make it all look good on the balance sheets. You mean they are not housing soldiers in our homes. No, but let me review the other top nine "Bill of Rights"...

Sorry....I made a mistake there...it was supposed to be borrow...not bother.

And the last sentence was ironical.


All those republicans didn't have problems with spending billions in Iraq, juts because Bush borrowed the money (and didn't raise taxes)....the fact that spending billions you don't have, and not raising taxes can never work didn't bother anybody.

[eppie]

The problem with smart government control is, "If the government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take away everything you have.", as was stated by Gerald R. Ford.

And why would the US government do that?
One thing I can only be positive about is that since the last 30 years or so people withg different ethinc backgrounds are treated equally in the US. The government has no reason to 'take away' somebodies money.
What they did lately is even making sure stupid people that borrowed much more than they could are allowed to keep there houses and are saved from poverty.

No, libertarian principles work no matter the size of the government, or economy. Look what Mart Laar has done in Estonia, just because he read Friedman's book "Free to Choose: A personal statement".:blink:

I don't know too much about this. What I do know is that Estonia is one of the hardest hit countries by the crisis, precisely because of the baking system they have.

[Vandiablo]

I don't know too much about this. What I do know is that Estonia is one of the hardest hit countries by the crisis, precisely because of the baking system they have.

Ah, the old "dollars to doughnuts" system, I presume.

-V
(oh, i know it's not usually not nice to make fun of typos when the speaker's natural language is not English, but some things are too good to pass up. Like doughnuts, for instance.)

[eppie]

Ah, the old "dollars to doughnuts" system, I presume.

-V
(oh, i know it's not usually not nice to make fun of typos when the speaker's natural language is not English, but some things are too good to pass up. Like doughnuts, for instance.)

No I actually meant the baking system. Bakery's have for long times made it possible for customers to run a tab when buying bread and this caused a massive melt down.
:blush:

No you are right, sorry for the typo, although I don't get what it has to do with being a non native english speaker......it was indeed a typo....I do know that bank is written with an 'n'.

ps the joke was funny and appriciated

[Vandiablo]

You *conquered* them.

Yeah, but they were asking for it.

They told us we'd be greeted as liberators, and they would pay for the cost of the invasion.

Yes, I'm sure that's what we heard.

What? Misunderstood? Mistranslated? But gosh durnit, they shoulda spoke English more clearer. And what they were saying probably wasn't real important anyway.

-V
(p.s. hushhush about those islands in the Pacific, you don't want to give the birthers any more to go on)

[Vandiablo]

The non-natives are pressed less...

No I actually meant the baking system. Bakery's have for long times made it possible for customers to run a tab when buying bread and this caused a massive melt down.

ooooo, cinnamon melts mmmmm

No you are right, sorry for the typo, although I don't get what it has to do with being a non native english speaker......it was indeed a typo....I do know that bank is written with an 'n'.

Even if you are fluent, and even if you are affluent, (and even if you are effluent) it takes more effort for non-natives to notice a typo than someone who is native. To me, "baking system" stuck out like a sour thumb, with no effort, whereas you would most likely have to consciously read it for typos.

While it is usually a waste of time to point out typos in an online discussion since it is the thoughts (if any) that count, to do so to a non-native is impolite and sometimes rude.

The exception, of course, is when a typo actually changes the meaning, and if the change will lead to a joke, or is funny on its own (like yours was).

You see, some of us need some mirth in order to swallow the bitter pills of, say, an economic/political thread. Calls us mirthers. Or just don't call us, we'll just screen you out anyway.

-V

(BTW, sour thumbs can result from making too many sourdough items.)

[eppie]

The non-natives are pressed less...
ooooo, cinnamon melts mmmmm

Even if you are fluent, and even if you are affluent, (and even if you are effluent) it takes more effort for non-natives to notice a typo than someone who is native. To me, "baking system" stuck out like a sour thumb, with no effort, whereas you would most likely have to consciously read it for typos.

While it is usually a waste of time to point out typos in an online discussion since it is the thoughts (if any) that count, to do so to a non-native is impolite and sometimes rude.

The exception, of course, is when a typo actually changes the meaning, and if the change will lead to a joke, or is funny on its own (like yours was).

You see, some of us need some mirth in order to swallow the bitter pills of, say, an economic/political thread. Calls us mirthers. Or just don't call us, we'll just screen you out anyway.

-V

(BTW, sour thumbs can result from making too many sourdough items.)

You might be right.....I thought it was because I always write quickly and don't check things.....and actually normally I check things I write in other languages more careful than what I write in Dutch.

ps did you notice the typo/spelling mistake in the ps of my last post.:blush:

[kandrathe]

Your claim wasn't about your family. Your claim was about the United States of America. Obviously, when I refer to "you", I mean the second person plural referring to the collectivity of your country, not to you personally.

Whew. I'm not sure what good will come from the whole sins of the forefathers line of thinking... Moral equivalences with 250 year old belief systems seems unproductive, much like comparing CIA torture techniques to the dark ages.

Nobody's said a word about Canada or Great Britain up until now. You flat out claimed that the US wasn't involved in it until at least WWII - which is patently untrue. This is my only point.

Other than those few nearby islands (which I admit I didn't consider), what I said was true. American exploitation was limited to America, and mostly North America.

[Jester]

Other than those few nearby islands (which I admit I didn't consider), what I said was true. American exploitation was limited to America, and mostly North America.

Oh, fer the love of...

You conquer a third of a large continent from other people, and claim it's limited to "America" and "Americans" because Mexicans and indigenous nations are "Americans" in the sense of the continental plate? Or that their territory was annexed? That's some serious sophistry right there. You said Americans only exploited *themselves* and *their own resources*.

And if the Philippines are a set of "nearby" islands, then Britain's empire extended to "nearby" Australia, India, and South Africa. They're almost literally as far from the US as possible while still being on the globe.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

You conquer a third of a large continent from other people, and claim it's limited to "America" and "Americans" because Mexicans and indigenous nations are "Americans" in the sense of the continental plate? Or that their territory was annexed? That's some serious sophistry right there.

If I recall correctly the US' territorial ambitions were aided mostly by a duplicitous (if not traitorous) Antonio López de Santa Anna.

If the Philippines are a set of "nearby" islands, then Britain's empire extended to "nearby" Australia, India, and South Africa. They're almost literally as far from the US as possible while still being on the globe.

True. Although, it was our interest in "liberating" Cuba that led to the Spanish-American war. If just happened that the Philippines got in the way, and then on the path to independance, WWII upset those plans. The US ended up staying much, much longer than expected due to wars, financial and political instability.

[Vandiablo]

ps did you notice the typo/spelling mistake in the ps of my last post.:blush:

Yep, but it wasn't actionable.