This Ain't Warcraft

[Occhidiangela]

The Imam Ali Mosque
A massively significant shrine for Shi'ite Muslims, and Muslims in general, the Imam Ali Mosque in An Najaf Iraq was the backdrop to a savage battle in August of 2004, a battle that included two different Shia factions (Sadr's Muktada Militia included), Marines from I MEF, and the Army's First Cavalry. As intense as the fighting was, the Imam Ali Mosque emerged unscathed. To say massive importance was placed, by American leadership, on not hitting that beautiful, golden domed mosque is to say birds fly and bombs fall.

The day I left the Persian Gulf in 2004, an operation that I'd been expecting to kick off went live -- the effort to counter foreign and indigenous guerillas from Samarra. Once again, clear political guidance was given to leave the Golden Mosque of Samarra unscathed. As in Najaf, a Mosque that has a "sanctuary" status often allows a "privileged sanctuary" to combatants (guerillas, terrorists, what have you) who are willing to risk the mosque's integrity by firing from it at American or other forces, to include Iraqi units.

The upshot is that in some cases "you can't shoot back."

Not all mosques get privileged status. Under Geneva, as soon as you start using a religious building as a fighting position, or as a military building (headquarters, for example,) it loses any "protected" status it may have had. Same for hospitals and schools.

The delicate approach to firing into some mosques can cause casualties for the Coalition forces (Americans/Italians, etc) but that risk is accepted for a longer term political aim: to leave intact the symbols and icons, important relics of Iraq, to the people of Iraq for their future and posterity. It is a very worthwhile goal.

Of course, Shi'ite and Sunni militia and guerillas, and other terrorists, don't answer to Washington, and pursue their own agendas for their own reasons.

The simmering civil war of the past 2 1/2 years seems to have gotten its Fort Sumter, its Gavrilo Princip.
The Golden Mosque of Samarra Attacked and Damaged
Samarra as a tourism destination, some years ago

I dare say all those calling for calm will call in vain for quite some time until tempers ebb or a blood price is exacted. The descent into chaos is closer.

Occhi

[Doc]

Ok. Sorry for the Godwin here.

The Nazis intentionally bombed churches to demoralise the Brits in conflict. Many beautiful and priceless cathedrals were destroyed.

Such is the price of war.

It's sad, but unless man stops being a bunch of jackasses, I don't see much being done about it any time soon.

I seem to recall some Budda statues that got blown off the map some time ago.

So much wonton destruction and hatred. It's bloody depressing.

[Occhidiangela]

The Nazis intentionally bombed churches to demoralise the Brits in conflict. Many beautiful and priceless cathedrals were destroyed.

Such is the price of war.

I seem to recall some Budda statues that got blown off the map some time ago.
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Doc:

The Hitler WW II bombing reference was both Godwinesque and not related to the point of my post. The issue at hand is a civil war in Iraq growing more virulent.

The (allegedly) deliberate attack by Sunni's on a Shi'ite mosque, and the deliberate retaliation by Shi'ites is an explicitly sectarian escalation of a war that has been simmering ever since the US wandered into Iraq as an occupying power at the head of a Coalition. Absent the disputes on certain classes of criminals, Al Qaeda in particular, US is following Geneva, or being more stringent. Misconduct at prisons is being punished by the occupying power. That to is in compliance with Geneva.

Since the US led Coalition chose to "liberate" the Shi'ites from Saddam and "Sunni Oppression," alienating Sunni's of all stripes has been a given. What is remarkable is how many local commanders have been able to work with, and cut deals with, a number of major Sunni factions. The recent elections and supporting public initiatives to "make nice" are a band aid on a sucking chest wound.

The sugar coating of the fermenting civil war by the Washington PR machine I am all too familiar with. I abhor it. This disgust is based on the understanding gleaned by what I saw and did in the CENTCOM AOR back when I was assigned there.

What I don't know is whether or not an "outside player" like Zarqawi deliberately staged this stunt in Samarra to try and set off a Sunni versus Shia fight. That gambit would be logical for him to attempt, as a counter to the modest successes at "play nice" programs being put in place. He does not benefit if Sunnis and Shia work tentatively toward a deal, a rapproachment, or some protocol that keeps the dialogue open and get along.

Vandalizing a mosque of particular significance is bound to get hot heads to act out of emotion. I expect the conspiracy theorists to attribute the attack to the Mossad. :wacko:

Occhi

[SwissMercenary]

The sugar coating of the fermenting civil war by the Washington PR machine I am all too familiar with.  I abhor it.  This disgust is based on the understanding gleaned by what I saw and did in the CENTCOM AOR back when I was assigned there.

Do you mean that "Everything's going fine, we have it under control, Mission Accomplished" messages are being sent by the administration to domestic news outlets?

I can't say I've been keeping up with the latest news of the occupation.

[Assur]

What I don't know is whether or not an "outside player" like Zarqawi deliberately staged this stunt in Samarra to try and set off a Sunni versus Shia fight.  That gambit would be logical for him to attempt, as a counter to the modest successes at "play nice" programs being put in place.  He does not benefit if Sunnis and Shia work tentatively toward a deal, a rapproachment, or some protocol that keeps the dialogue open and get along.

Vandalizing a mosque of particular significance is bound to get hot heads to act out of emotion.  I expect the conspiracy theorists to attribute the attack to the Mossad. 
Occhi
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It's a wellknown fact that al-Zarquawi abhors Shi'ites as the worst kind of heretics, he considers them idolators! The attack in Samarra was probly carried out on his direct orders and by non-Iraqi jihadis ((local Sunnis wouldn't have carried out the attack because they wouldn't risk the Shi'ite backlash). Basically al-Zarqawi wants the Americans out and the Shi'ites crushed, thus turning Iraq into the first Emirate of a reborn Caliphate!

BTW, the Iranian president has blamed the attack on the Zionists. You win one cold Becks B)

The way I see it there are two viable options for the US:

1. Forget all about democracy and nation-building, team up with the Shi'ites to crush the Sunnis and then leave.

2. Just leave and let them solve the conflict in their own way.

As regards the whole US intervention in Iraq I am reminded of Talleyrands best quote:

"It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake"

[Occhidiangela]

It's a well known fact that al-Zarquawi abhors Shi'ites as the worst kind of heretics, he considers them idolators! The attack in Samarra was probly carried out on his direct orders and by non-Iraqi jihadis ((local Sunnis wouldn't have carried out the attack because they wouldn't risk the Shi'ite backlash). Basically al-Zarqawi wants the Americans out and the Shi'ites crushed, thus turning Iraq into the first Emirate of a reborn Caliphate!

BTW, the Iranian president has blamed the attack on the Zionists. You win one cold Becks B)

The way I see it there are two viable options for the US:

1. Forget all about democracy and nation-building, team up with the Shi'ites to crush the Sunnis and then leave.

2. Just leave and let them solve the conflict in their own way.

As regards the whole US intervention in Iraq I am reminded of Talleyrands best quote:

"It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake"
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Cold Becks, yummy! :D

The Talleyrand quote is fitting. Thanks. :D

Teaming up with Shi'ites plays into Iran's hands, regionally strategically that is moronic. It also pisses off not a few local allies, who also think of Shia a idolators.

"Let them fight" would have been a good policy in June 2003. Not taken. It would have been a great policy in Bosnia, not taken. Nearly taken in Rwanda. Whoa, half a million dead. So what? Let them fight in Iraq, a million or so dead I'd guess. So what?

I don't much care if they all kill each other, for then the Kurds would be the winners, and we can work with them. Maybe that is the real plan. Let the Shia and Sunni kill each other, Kurds take over . . . but the local regional actors would not just sit by and let that happen, eh? Nor would I blame them for getting involved.

I don't see "so what" as a policy an American president could undertake, not with the problem in the international media and international community that America has already caused for itself.

If you look to a couple of days ago, the American Ambassador Khalilzad made a very paternalistic, arrogant, possibly offensive statement to both warring factions: in a nutshell, if they don't get along and drop the sectarian infighting, the Americans won't support their rebuilding efforts, won't support -- spend billions -- on critical institutions and infrastructure much longer.

Basically, what he said was "you guys get along or we leave and take our money with us." Meant or not, it was probably perceived that way by some, and spun that way by others.

Ya gotta hand it to that rube, he adds his to a long list of idiotic public utterances by mouthpiece for clumsy diplomacy and absentee statesmanship, not to mention raw folly. Barbara Tuchman's March of Folly was written about decision making contradictory to national interest.

Apparently, both Shia and Sunni clerics commented on that rhetoric as culpable foolishness in this case, and marked it as an open invitation to any number of players as an unintentional "I dare you to stir something up."

*slaps head*

SASO and "nation building" are hard; nearly impossible when done stupidly.

Occhi

[Assur]

Cold Becks, yummy!  :D

The Talleyrand quote is fitting.  Thanks.  :D

Teaming up with Shi'ites plays into Iran's hands, regionally strategically that is moronic.  It also pisses off not a few local allies, who also think of Shia a idolators.


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Well, I'm happy that you can appreciate a cold Becks, I was under the impression that you only appreciated lukewarm Irish bogwater :D

In the shortterm it looks like a win for the Iranians, but in the long run local rivalries will take over.

The Brits got smashed in the first two Afghan wars, they retreated, assesed the situation and contiued with imperial power politics and kept their empire. What is achieved if US forces stay on ?

The Saudis will be really paranoid if there is a Shi'ite nation to their north, use that situation to your advantage.

All I can say is that at the moment events in Iraq are totally volatile, the situation can really explode, is it worth more US lives?

[Occhidiangela]

All I can say is that at the moment events in Iraq are totally volatile, the situation can really explode, is it worth more US lives?
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I don't know. It wasn't a great idea to start with, and I am still miffed that I trusted Sec State Powell and his credibility was used as a chip in a bigger poker game. :angry: I effed up, I trusted him.

Occhi

[Doc]

I am sorry. I was merely commenting on the erm, philosophical state of man and his sad sorry nature to blow stuff up. For whatever reason.

I don't care whodunnit... I just care that somebody done it. It bothers me. I don't like it one bit. I was trying to communicate my displeasure over the events. Nothing more, and, in my mind, had a lot to do with your post.

[Occhidiangela]

:angry:

I am sorry. I was merely commenting on the erm, philosophical state of man and his sad sorry nature to blow stuff up. For whatever reason.

I don't care whodunnit... I just care that somebody done it. It bothers me. I don't like it one bit. I was trying to communicate my displeasure over the events. Nothing more, and, in my mind, had a lot to do with your post.
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Doc:

Your platitudes and generalities on the allegedly grand topic of man's imperfection, war's brutality, and man's inhumanity to man are trite and empty. They add no value to the topic.

The subject is the here and now, the reality, the gritty fact of what is. The title is a reminder of the following: while a lot of us amuse ourselves by playing War Games, however fun they are, the reality upon which those War Games are modeled is nothing to be taken lightly, nor to be undertaken by morons.

If I could be granted one wish, it would be that a Marine Sniper with a .50 cal sniper rifle would be given the mission of removing a vile warmonger. He is named Wolfowitz and is currently serving as head of World Bank. Chickenhawk for dinner, anyone?

But it won't happen.

Why?

Fantasy, like WoW, is not reality, so we endeavor to persevere.

Of course, that SOB better not show up in a bar where I am drinking, unless he likes eating empty Becks' bottles. :angry:

Occhi

[Doc]

:angry:

Doc: 

Your platitudes and generalities on the allegedly grand topic of man's imperfection, war's brutality, and man's inhumanity to man are trite and empty.  They add no value to the topic. 

The subject is the here and now, the reality, the gritty fact of what is.  The title is a reminder of the following: while a lot of us amuse ourselves by playing War Games, however fun they are, the reality upon which those War Games are modeled is nothing to be taken lightly, nor to be undertaken by morons.

If I could be granted one wish, it would be that a Marine Sniper with a .50 cal sniper rifle would be given the mission of removing a vile warmonger.  He is named Wolfowitz and is currently serving as head of World Bank.  Chickenhawk for dinner, anyone? 

But it won't happen. 

Why? 

Fantasy, like WoW, is not reality, so we endeavor to persevere. 

Of course, that SOB better not show up in a bar where I am drinking, unless he likes eating empty Becks' bottles.  :angry:

Occhi
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The topic it self is empty. It too, is pretty much just the same old same old fill in the blanks this has all happened before sort of stuff. Something blew up. Somebody blew that something up. It has been repeated a thousand times. And yet, no matter how many times I read about this sort of stuff, it saddens me a bit. Sorry, can't help it. **Shrugs**

They complained and had much anger about temples and shrines in Nam being damaged too.

All of this has been said and done before, yet we still go on with full sound and fury over each new event. When I was younger, each new event brought rage. Anger. Hot headedness. "Somebody must pay." Lately, I am to tired of all of this. I see the church burnings right here in our own country going on right now, and these mosques, and whatever else, and I can seem to feel is pity and sadness over mankind.

In short, I think I am getting to old for this.

As for Wolfowitz, hire a repairman from Pinochio Hired Help Agency. They have a wonderful no strings attatched deal going on now.

[Chesspiece_face]

I don't know.  It wasn't a great idea to start with, and I am still miffed that I trusted Sec State Powell and his credibility was used as a chip in a bigger poker game.  :angry:  I effed up, I trusted him.

Occhi
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http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/022206H.shtml

[whyBish]

If I could be granted one wish, it would be that a Marine Sniper with a .50 cal sniper rifle would be given the mission of removing a vile warmonger.  He is named Wolfowitz and is currently serving as head of World Bank.  Chickenhawk for dinner, anyone? 

Occhi
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I'm surprised by that choice... but then, except in self defence or retribution I can't imagine wanting to kill anyone.

--Edit. I mean that statement at face value... it isn't meant as a value judgement.

[Rinnhart]

I'm surprised by that choice... but then, except in self defence or retribution I can't imagine wanting to kill anyone.

--Edit.  I mean that statement at face value... it isn't meant as a value judgement.
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And Wolfowitz hasn't done anything to merit bloody retribution?

[Occhidiangela]

I'm surprised by that choice... but then, except in self defence or retribution I can't imagine wanting to kill anyone.

--Edit.  I mean that statement at face value... it isn't meant as a value judgement.
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My distaste for that person (and Feith, Perle, and a few others) has to do with setting up a war, then walking away and leaving it to be cleaned up by others, in uniform and out. He's not having to do the hard part, which is execute a plan and see a vision through. He was an architect of the policy and the war, he was one of the folks who undercut the CENTCOM calls for more robust force levels.

I better stop. Given a nice Golden Parachute by his patrons and supporters, the World Bank job. At some point, the subpoena needs to reach his desk, and a few others, in the hands of Federal Marshalls.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

The topic it self is empty.  **Shrugs**

I see the church burnings right here in our own country going on right now, and these mosques, and whatever else, and I can seem to feel is pity and sadness over mankind.
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Did you note how the outcry about the recent church burnings has been muted, in the national press? Do you think perhaps that is "shrugged off" because the churches with predominantly black congretations were not the only ones torched? Is it because the arsonists delivered an equal opportunity arson package? Is it because no race baiting could be gleaned from the story that so many did not rise up in shocked outrage?

How typical of the national media, of the urban sophisticates. :rolleyes: Those secularist folk unabashedly display their indifference to the little people, the everyday decent folk in all of those small Alabama congregations. I'll suggest that is because those people live in what the meat puppets refer to as "fly over country."

You say the topic is empty? Perhaps for a TV generation mind, Doc, not a venerable curmudgeon like yourself. If it is so empty, why comment at all?

In any case, the grave yards in Iraq will keep filling up. So will the coffins in the two and threes, in the half dozens and dozens, that arrive in Dover AFB, Delaware, USA. Not empty, and not trivial.

Why?

Unlike the Malthusian civil wars in Congo and Rwanda, major wars in the land of dinosaur wine influence the whole world's economy. The area from the Levant to Persia and down to the Gulf of Aden matters to too many other people. Ask anyone in Japan.

Nixon found out that hard way, as did we all, in 1973 that we have to care what goes on in that part of the world beyond its gas pump feature. We will have to until America breaks its oil addiction. After that, maybe we can all just shrug our shoulders right along with you, Doc, and let them play their game of intramural homicide.

Occhi

[Doc]

Did you note how the outcry about the recent church burnings has been muted, in the national press?  Do you think perhaps that is "shrugged off" because the churches with predominantly black congretations were not the only ones torched?  Is it because the arsonists delivered an equal opportunity arson package?  Is it because no race baiting could be gleaned from the story that so many did not rise up in shocked outrage? 

How typical of the national media, of the urban sophisticates.  :rolleyes:  Those secularist folk unabashedly display their indifference to the little people, the everyday decent folk in all of those small Alabama congregations.  I'll suggest that is because those people live in what the meat puppets refer to as "fly over country."

You say the topic is empty?  Perhaps for a TV generation mind, Doc, not a venerable curmudgeon like yourself.  If it is so empty, why comment at all? 

In any case, the grave yards in Iraq will keep filling up.  So will the coffins in the two and threes, in the half dozens and dozens, that arrive in Dover AFB, Delaware, USA.  Not empty, and not trivial. 

Why? 

Unlike the Malthusian civil wars in Congo and Rwanda, major wars in the land of dinosaur wine influence the whole world's economy.  The area from the Levant to Persia and down to the Gulf of Aden matters to too many other people.  Ask anyone in Japan.

Nixon found out that hard way, as did we all, in 1973 that we have to care what goes on in that part of the world beyond its gas pump feature.  We will have to until America breaks its oil addiction.  After that, maybe we can all just shrug our shoulders right along with you, Doc, and let them play their game of intramural homicide.

Occhi
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I am not shrugging my shoulders at all. I am merely saying that somewhere, somehow, I have heard this story before. And I will hear it again. That was the original point of my first post.

That is quite a reach saying that I am shrugging my shoulders.

Have a Guiness and take another look.

[Guest]

No - Occhi was right.

Occhi made a post on a real and serious current event along with his opinions on the subject.

You made a long winded reply that basically said "People do do bad stuf'f."
Guess what - we all knew that.

And to make it worse you made a meaningless connection with a seperate topic that tends to cause controversy on its own.


Your post was worthless. Why dont you just say, - "Your right. I shouldnt have have wasted the space."

[Doc]

No - Occhi was right.

Occhi made a post on a real and serious current event along with his opinions on the subject.

You made a long winded reply that basically said "People do do bad stuf'f."
Guess what - we all knew that.

And to make it worse you made a meaningless connection with a seperate topic that tends to cause controversy on its own.
Your post was worthless. Why dont you just say, - "Your right. I shouldnt have have wasted the space."
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No offense, but you are the last person to talk about telling others "not to waste space."

:rolleyes:

[Occhidiangela]

I am not shrugging my shoulders at all. ==snip==

That is quite a reach saying that I am shrugging my shoulders.

Have a Guiness and take another look.
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Looking back at the video taped replay:

The topic it self is empty.  **Shrugs**

The call on the field stands. B) No amount of Guinness will change that.

*Commercial Break*

Drink Guinness Draft, and become Brilliant! :whistling:

*End Commercial Break*

We now return you to the thread in progress, where the Ghostiger / Doc middleweight match has been called, due to rain. B) <-- *little voice* Occhi, why are you wearing sunglasses in the rain?

Occhi