the once and future Spangles

[Ynir]

Spangles was specced full protect during her early raiding period. Then she specced 31 arms / 20 fury for several months, soloing for wintersaber faction. She killed thousands of furbolgs with this build in the course of becoming revered and enjoyed faster killing greatly. She especially liked mortal strike. She stancedanced a lot but stayed in zerker mode most of the time just because it was the most difficult stance to work in. This training was prescient.

I came to realize that I cannot gauge the efficacy of a build before killing several hundred similar mobs, since fights are governed by probabilities, and it is easy to perceive false patterns generated by small samples of random events. Winterfall furbolgs are ideal for long-term experiments because they are sturdy enough to put up a fight and are killed reliably when they add. They drop good money and good greens, the occasional blue and, so far, one epic.

Exhalted wintersaber faction requires 960 turn-ins of 10 furbolgs each. Effects of certain details accumulate. The crunching sound of a 2H sword quickly became unbearable, so Spangles specced for heavy axes. There is always competition for kills, so there is no time to eat. No consumption of potions or storebought food is economically viable over 10,000 kills. Furbolgs drop runecloth copiously since 1.9, so bandaging is the best heal. The plan is kill, kill, kill, kill, bandage at 20% hp, repeat ad infinitum.

The main problem with this mode of combat is that a kill takes too long, and the fight is unrealistic. Spangles swats the mob. The mob stands there, then swats back. Spangles stands there, and eventually swats again. A single fight, using an Arcanite Reaper, can take 20 to 30 seconds. Horde are ganking her kills. We have 500 turn-ins to go. This is untenable.

The potential for faster killing in zerker mode was readily apparent. So, Spangles completed the transition to the wild side with a "PvP" 17 arms / 34 fury build, from this guide:

http://www.warriorguideswow.com/content/view/13/28/

2/5 parry
3/3 improved rend
5/5 tactical mastery
2/2 improved overpower
3/3 deep wounds
2/2 impale
arms total: 17

5/5 cruelty
5/5 unbridled wrath
1/1 piercing howl
5/5 improved battle shout
5/5 enrage
2/2 improved execute
2/2 improved intercept
1/1 death wish
5/5 flurry
2/2 improved berserker rage
1/1 bloodthirst
fury total: 34

This configuration was chosen over the dual wield build because her offhand weapons are insufficiently powerful to make a 12.5% damage increase worthwhile. Her plan was to compare the efficacy of 2H weapon and dual wield attacks.

Spangles has accumulated gear to accomodate this build, and the stats are an important part of the story. She has full Valor that gives her 5000+ HP, 6500 AC and 100+ FR, but won't wear it except in MC or 5 man instances where she is performing always-protect.

Her farming gear is described here:

https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post692679

The stats for armor, weapons, enchants and jewelry are blended to increase +agility, +crit, +hit, +attack power and +parry. Balance is usually the key, but this assembly is experimental, and deliberately skewed away from +stamina and +defense to see what we can get away with.

Note that all her gear is crafted, or dropped randomly, or found in mid level instances. Battleground rewards and high-tier drops are not available to her.

armor:

Lionheart Helm (crafted by Elsington)
565 armor
+18 strength
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 2%.
equip: improves your chance to hit by 2%.
enchant: +8 agility
comment: hide this ugly graphic

Razorsteel Shoulders (Sunken Temple)
410 armor
+10 strength
+10 agility
+9 stamina
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.
enchant: +5 nature resist
comment: absolutely awesome stats for a lvl 50 quest

Deathdealer Breastplate (BRD)
338 armor
+8 strength
+8 stamina
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 2%.
enchant: +100 health
comment: tres chic shows lots of skin

Stoneskin Gargoyle Cape (Stratholme)
43 armor
+7 strength
+8 agility
+14 stamina
enchant: +70 armor
comment: very pretty graphic, but hide it to unclutter field of vision

Vambraces of the Sadist (Stratholme)
270 armor
+7 stamina
+6 spirit
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
enchant: +9 stamina

Stronghold Gauntlets (crafted by Elsington)
441 armor
+12 stamina
equip: immune to disarm.
equip: increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
enchant: +9 strength
comment: pretty blue & gold graphic

Omokk's Girth Restrainer (LBRS)
353 armor
+15 strength
+9 stamina
equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.

Eldritch Legplates (DM tribute)
566 armor
+15 strength
+9 agility
+20 stamina
equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
enchant: +125 armor
comment: nice S&M/dominatrix graphic

Valor Boots (Scholomance)
424 armor
+8 strength
+4 agility
+20 stamina
+3 spirit
enchant: +7 stamina
comment: the better part of valor

neck:

Evil Eye Pendant (DM west)
+15 agility
equip: increased defense +7.

rings:

Painweaver Band (UBRS)
+7 stamina
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
equip: +16 attack power.

Magni's Will (BRD)
+6 strength
+7 stamina
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.

Nagelring (BRD)
+10 Arcane Resistance
equip: when struck in combat inflicts 3 arcane damage to the attacker.
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.

Tarnished Elven Ring (DM)
+15 agility
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.

ring shopping list:

Blackstone Ring
+6 Stamina
equip: +20 attack power.
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.

trinkets:

Counterattack Lodestone (DM tribute)
equip: increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.
equip: +22 attack power.

Defender of the Timbermaw (faction reward, analysis by Miniraa)
Summons a Timbermaw ancestor, a ghostly sprite of a furbolg that has roughly 900 to 1000 HP. It lasts for 20 seconds or until your death, whichever happens first. It will heal you only if you drop below 50% hp, and only if it hasn't been attacked. The healing wave is a 2.5 second cast that heals for approximately 500-560. If your timbermaw ancestor is attacked, he will go into meleeghtning bolt spam mode. His lightning bolt does about 225 to 300 damage and has a 2.5 second cast. His melee attacks do between 40 to 50 damage. The cooldown on the trinket is 10 minutes, and has the typical 30 second cooldown on equip.

trinket shopping list:

Hand of Justice (BRD)
equip: 2% chance on hit to gain 1 extra attack.
equip: +20 attack power.

Force of Will (BRD)
Equip: When struck in combat has a 1% chance of reducing all melee damage done by 25 for 10 sec.
equip: increased defense +7.

ranged weapon:

Blackcrow (LBRS)
crossbow
77 - 117 damage speed 3.20 31.1 dps
+ 1 - 4 shadow damage
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.
scope: +7 damage

1H weapons:

Krol Blade (world drop)
main hand/sword
80 - 149 damage speed 2.80 40.9 dps
+7 strength
+5 stamina
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
enchant: +15 agility

Tooth of Eranikus (Sunken Temple)
main hand/axe
62 - 116 damage speed 2.40 37.1 dps
+6 strength
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.
enchant: +15 agility

Hanzo Sword (world drop)
offhand/sword
38 - 71 damage speed 1.50 36.3 dps
chance on hit: wounds the target for 75 damage.
enchant: +15 agility

Boneslicing Hatchet (Stratholme)
offhand/axe
48 - 90 damage speed 1.70 40.6 dps
+13 Agility
+5 Stamina
enchant: +15 agility

Argent Avenger (Stratholme)
offhand/sword
71 - 108 damage speed 2.20 40.7 dps
chance on hit: increases attack power against undead by 200 for 10 sec.
enchant: fiery weapon, fun!

2H weapons:

Dreadforge Retaliator (BRD)
2H axe
149 - 225 damage speed 3.70 50.5 dps
equip: increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
equip: +30 attack power.
enchant: +9 damage

Arcanite Reaper (crafted by Fafner)
2H axe
153 - 256 damage speed 3.80 53.8 dps
+13 Stamina
equip: +62 attack power.
enchant: +9 damage

Bonecrusher (DM west)
2H mace
129 - 194 damage speed 3.00 53.8 dps
+30 strength
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
enchant: Crusader

Peacemaker (Stratholme)
polearm
137 - 206 damage speed 3.40 50.4 dps
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
equip: +56 attack power.
enchant: +9 damage

Monstrous Glaive (DM tribute)
polearm
123 - 185 damage speed 2.90 53.1 dps
+23 stamina
equip: increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.
equip: increased defense +7.

Spangles fields 212 strength, 182 agility, 241 stamina, 4019 HP, 3899 AC, 27% crit, 9% parry and 622/863 attack power (battle shout is always up) when she farms with the Krol blade and the Bone Slicing Hatchet. Chance to hit is +5% from gear, don't know where to find the total. She uses WeaponSwap and Stancesets to change weapon configurations on the fly.

The dual wield encounter in zerker stance is entirely different from that using the big 2H slugger: a kung fu movie that is over very quickly, one way or the other. Hit berserker rage, bloodrage, intercept, battle shout. Hamstring, multiple sunder, discouraging shout, spam bloodthirst and piercing howl, execute. Heroic strike, cleave, whirlwind when dealing with adds. There is time for only one pummel on shamans, so that attack is reserved to prevent rejuvenation.

Hamstring has no purpose on a stationary mob except for rage generation. It is the attack requiring least rage, so it lights up after an intercept. This attack seems to prevent deadband during the stun period, providing rage to start sundering. Sunders light up bloodthirst, which triggers a cascade of blows leading to execute.

This works on the furbolg, who are unarmed, stationary, and attack singly or in pairs. With other mobs there is not always time to get rage before intercepting, so, charge from battle stance, hit mocking blow since it always is available and may help to hold aggro, switch into protect to disarm if necessary, switch into zerker, issue battle shout, discouraging shout, deathwish, spam piercing howl.

Heroic strike, cleave and whirlwind all produce deadband in the fight, so they are used only on adds.

Differences among offhand weapons are profound. My criterion for success is smooth and and accelerating rage generation. The hatchet is much better for this than any other weapon on the list.

The difference between dual wield and big 2H encounters is readily apparent. A good dual wield attack is continuous, with no downtime, resembling the sunder/revenge sequence in protection mode. Rage generation is continuous in dual wield, presumably because alternating mainhand/offhand hits provoke continuous attacks from the mob.

The CTMod DPS readout typically shows 150 to 250 dps during the dual wield attack. 2H attacks often show more DPS, but the action is not smooth, with timeouts due to rage loss between damage bursts. The most important advantage of the dual wield attack is that bloodthirst and other high rage attacks are available almost continuously. Besides that, I enjoy it more.

The improved execute talent allows executing at single second intervals. Terminal crits and reflexive (passively induced) multiple attacks are common at this stage. I assume that the magnitude of the crit is determined by a probability curve that is invariant with the frequency of critting. The percieved effect of rapid critting is more high-damage crits, however, which is fun.

Crits of 100 to 600 are routine, 700 to 1200 are common. Single-stroke executes are common. Crits above 2000 are rare. High crits seem to max out at 2885, the highest I have seen.

Fights with single 58+ non-elites usually end with 15% - 30% of total HP lost. Fights begun with a minimum of 25% total HP are reliably survivable, however.

The effect of even one add can be devastating. There is insufficient stamina in this configuration to sustain continuous damage from an untargeted mob. If the fight goes well and the targeted mob goes down quickly, there is HP remaining to take out the add relibably. If not, the add must be feared to allow time for bandaging between killing and attacking the add. The most common cause of dying is forgetting to bandage.

Kill time is halved, to 8 to 18 seconds. This is the effect I was looking for. This build is the most fun since full protection. I may drop the dual wield attack if Spangles ever gets an epic 2H. Meanwhile, the novelty of dual wield fury is making it (more) fun to farm. She probably won't get around to testing her 2H weapons extensively.

The loss of protection talents is not detrimental in 5 player instances. Spangles will suit up in Valor and a shield, and knows how to use the protect hotbar. Taunt and mocking blow get the attention of most mobs, although the 10 second cooldown on taunt is annoying.

A good priest can accomodate her switching into zerker for extended fights, which is great fun. After 15 months of WoW, players in blues are much tougher than their equivalents a year ago, and the mobs are pretty much the same, so the balance is not so precarious as it was.

It is apparent that in raids she should be MA, or assisting the MA, rather than MT. There is no point trying to out-protect the warrior built for that purpose. Skillful arms/fury warriors can compete on the damage meters with rogues and casters, so life has compensations.

I see no reason at present to spec more conservatively. Instances beyond MC are designed to promote more varied tactics than the operatic MT/primadonna scheme. There is need for high dps from a platewearer.

PvP is the next frontier. We will put this off as long as possible. Spangles doesn't have the moves or the insight to fight player classes effectively. With the new patch and the expansion there should be plenty of content for her to explore, however.

[Concillian]

Do not discount dual weild spec before you try it.

Impale is a total damage increase of 10% on crits from specials, which are generally less than 50% of your damage for a dual-weilder...

so +10% damage on (assuming a 20% crit rate) 20% of 50% hits is about +1% damage. The extra damage also nets 0 rage, because it's guaranteed to be yellow damage. Let's be generous and add another 1% from deep wounds. For a total gain for those points of 2%

Look at dual weild spec:
Assuming you have 2 weapons of approximately equal DPS (and you do if you have a Krol blade main hand + bone slicing hatchet off hand) and your white damage is approximately 50% of your total damage, you have:

33% of that damage from off-hand (16.67% total damage)
66% of that damage from main hand (33.33% total damage)

Off hand increases by 25%
16.67 * 0.25 = 4.16% total increase in damage.

Not only that, the damage nets you rage to use in specials.

for dual wield fury, DW spec makes more sense than impale. I don't have a link to it, but people have proven this in the warrior forum with screenshots of 'recap' info. Impale is only the way to go for 2H fury warriors, where Deep wounds ticks for much larger values and won't refresh as often before it's done.

Lastly, fury gains are large from AP, you may consider trading some of your crit for STR for more AP. In blue gear you will likely find the area where you're in the 700-800 AP (unbuffed) and slightly lower crit a better overall range for your grinding. Asfy's list of gear is more like "these are the plate items that have crit" and she calls that a guide to warrior gear, There is more to DPS than crit, you must strike the right balance between AP, crit, and +hit.

[Tal]

Two handed weapons are all about rage conservation. Don't use hamstring just because you have rage, normal attack and enough crit will give you the rage you need for your damage dealing attacks (like Mortal Strike if you spec again for it) or heroic strike (a rage dump really). I notice you have improved rend but no mention of using it in your attacks. I find my DPS goes up with a charge, rend and pop over into berserker with berserker rage and then switching to mortal strike combos for the execute.

In my experience I've found 2 hand versus dualwield spec to be incompatible for combination. As Conc pointed out, when specc'd for it, dual wield can be a fearsome thing - the only warrior who is usually ahead of me in damage in raids is Skybreak with his dual wielded Quel'Serrar and Brutality Blade.

[Artega]

Rend is vastly inefficient, even talented. It's much better to use that 10 Rage towards a Heroic Strike or Sunder Armor, since both will do more damage.

Additionally, Dual Wield Specialization is a waste of talent points - it's a very minor damage increase, and there are far better places to put those five talent points, either in the Fury tree, or in the Arms tree.

When I get bored of turtling and decide to play Fury, I usually go for a fast two-hander - simply because I'll go Arms if I want to use a slow two-hander, and dualling is ineffective without stacking on +hit gear.

Still, I don't notice a large difference in kill speeds between the various builds I've tried - Protection is a little slower per-kill, but needs to bandage far less often, saving more of that Runecloth for cashflow purposes, and making up for the slightly slower killtime.

[Concillian]

Additionally, Dual Wield Specialization is a waste of talent points - it's a very minor damage increase, and there are far better places to put those five talent points, either in the Fury tree, or in the Arms tree.

Would you care to elaborate / be more specific?

I don't see anywhere else he can put the available points to get greater than 4.x% damage increase + more rage for specials, not quite as nice as the gain from something like 2H spec, which is a straight 5% + rage, but I see it as the best option for points beyond flurry and BT. The impale line is less than half the damage for the same investment.

I simply don't see how you can consider these a waste of points, as I see no other option that will add even close to the amount of damage that DW spec does.

[Tal]

Rend is vastly inefficient, even talented.  It's much better to use that 10 Rage towards a Heroic Strike or Sunder Armor, since both will do more damage.
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So you read the one line and completely skipped the part where I recommended heroic strike over hamstring? I simply offered rend as a option over hamstring not as the only way to go. I would also like to hear more about how it is "vastly" inefficient. 10 rage for 147 damage over time, a chance to trigger deep wounds not to mention that it garners rage. Heroic strike does around 10 more damage for 15 rage has a chance to trigger deep wounds but no rage return. What is your criteria for efficiency?

[Rinnhart]

How is Heroic Strike more efficient? It's ten more damage for 5 more rage, and that's not counting the rage lost by losing a swing.

Edit: and tal owns me while I'm looking at Thott.

[swirly]

I've been having similiar kinds of thoughts on my warrior lately. She has grown up as a protection warrior, but lately has been dual wielding while soloing and enjoying it. So it starts making me debate switching to fury. We also have two protection warriors in the guild on Terenas (durambar and jandrey) and conc who I believe is 2 handed speced, but will be able to tank better than my char anyway because of better gear. So it seems to me that in most situations I really don't need to be protection speced. Fury is really tempting me to the dark side.

My character is 57 and hasn't gone into BRD or any instances past that yet. This basically means that my gear is crap right now, but that its important to know where I'm heading with my build so that I know what gear I want. My big problem that its ha to give up some of the protection talents. Improved Sunder, Concussion Blow, and One-handed Weapon Spec are all talents that I feel like I might miss. They involve such a huge investment into protection though that its either keep them and stay protection or give them up and go fury.

So I find myself debating fury builds. I hear some people say that Heroic Strikegood because it replaces your normal attack and so changes the miss rate to the 5% for specials instead of whatever it is for your main hand when dual wielding. This makes me consider putting talents into that and using it as a main attack. It also seems like the 3 points to reduce its cost could be better spent somewhere else though so I don't know about that.

Some people also say that Bloodthirst isn't very good (I'm not sure why). So that makes me debate going as far as Flurry, but not to Bloodthirst. At that point though its only 2 points to get Bloodthirst so it almost feels like I should just because I can.

It does make some sense to me that its a choice of one or the other though. With Bloodthirst costing 30 rage, it seems unlikely that you will have the rage for it if you are using Heroic Strike every time you can.

So I really don't know what to do is basically my point. I don't know what style is really the better style. Is it better to save up rage and burn it on the more expensive skills or is to better to spam the other ones? I don't know what to think anymore.

A build like this is interesting because its basically all white damage except for non-talented skills and Bloodthirst. One could also take the points out of Bloodthirst and Deathwish to improve Heroic Strike a little bit and so focus on that attack. *shrug* I just don't know anymore which is why I haven't bothered to respec out of protection. I've just not been able to wrap my head around things.

Oh and of course with the spamming heroic strike you are gaining less rage because your main hand weapon is basically always doing non-rage gaining yellow damage. *shrug* I think I'll stop babbling now cause I'm just confused. : )

[Concillian]

The main issue with heroic strike is the extra threat it creates. No issue soloing, but for instances you have to do something else. Some fury warriors switch to cleave in groups, which has lower inherent threat, but still some, it is also less rage efficient. Others carry a 2H weapon and once they get to ~90 rage, they switch to a big, slow heavy duty 2hander and chain Slams to get rid of the rage (this assuming they don't have aggro), then swap back to DW.

Were I to make a DW fury build, specifically for PvE damage this is what it would look like:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?pI0xdZVVzVgxoio

The Impale line is just low return for DW for 2 reasons: 1 you're not doing enough specials for Impale to be that great, you have a reasonably low damage weapon so deep wounds isn't that great, and you will crit often enough that sometimes deep wounds refreshes even before it can tick (which extends the time between ticks). Lots of discussions on the warrior forum (weeding through all the crap posts on the official forums) seem to lead me to the conclusion that deep wounds / impale + DW fury just aren't the best combo.

IMO, DW spec is the best option for extra damage with the points above the 'standard' 33 in fury (Piercing Howl, Flurry, Bloodthirst + 2 in berserker rage). With anger managment for the extra rage and overpower for the nearly guaranteed flurry proc when you overpower. Heroic strike will be used often enough that a 3 rage discount is worthwhile.

DW fury warriors are rage generating machines. Flurry adds more white damage than most other kinds of warriors generally have, and beserker rage turns you into a rage fountain when solo (10 rage + even more rage from taking damage). Getting a Bloodthirst often isn't an issue like getting a Shield Slam with a protection spec, the rage comes quick. HS is used as a rage dump when you have too much and can't BT often enough. More efficient than using WW on a single target and usable often because you generally have quick weapons (quick weapons also minimize the negative aspect of HS eating the rage of the next attack)

[swirly]

The main issue with heroic strike is the extra threat it creates.
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I kind of wonder about this as well. Being that in instances I would either be the main tank or have a reliable one, I wonder if the extra threat would matter. One would assume that the main tank would be in defensive stance doing sunders and revenges. Its possible they could have defiance as well. Would a fury warrior in battle stance (more on stances in a moment) pull aggro using heroic strike? I don't know the answer to that really, but I would think that if you have a reliable main tank (like the ones we have) that it shouldn't be an issue. It would probably just make you the second most hated on the list which could be good in case the main tank gets punted or some such. I suppose thats something that will just have to be tried and see how much is too much for the main tank to keep up with. If you count having a cheap shot rogue as well then its possible that the main tank could ignore the first target which would give him a head start on aggro with the other targets. So then it would probably be fine to heroic strike as much as you wish. Basically my point is that I just wonder if the aggro would be a problem with our configurations.

So what stance would you spend most of your time in as a fury warrior? Berserker seems nice since it ups your damage even more, but then that wastes the improved overpower. You could switch to battle to overpower and then switch back, but to me that seems like it could be hard on the timing. If you stay in battle stance the whole time then you can overpower right away and possibly get two in since you could get the first one off faster. You could switch to berserker for berserker rage and switch back. Doing it that way gives up the added damage from berserker stance though. I'm guessing that getting the most out of improved overpower might make it worth it to stay in battle.

[Tal]

I kind of wonder about this as well.  Being that in instances I would either be the main tank or have a reliable one, I wonder if the extra threat would matter.  One would assume that the main tank would be in defensive stance doing sunders and revenges.  Its possible they could have defiance as well.  Would a fury warrior in battle stance (more on stances in a moment) pull aggro using heroic strike?  I don't know the answer to that really, but I would think that if you have a reliable main tank (like the ones we have) that it shouldn't be an issue.  It would probably just make you the second most hated on the list which could be good in case the main tank gets punted or some such.  I suppose thats something that will just have to be tried and see how much is too much for the main tank to keep up with.  If you count having a cheap shot rogue as well then its possible that the main tank could ignore the first target which would give him a head start on aggro with the other targets.  So then it would probably be fine to heroic strike as much as you wish.  Basically my point is that I just wonder if the aggro would be a problem with our configurations.[right][snapback]102836[/snapback][/right]

You drop enough heroic strikes, especially if you have a faster weapon than the MT and you will draw aggro. Plays hell on our tank rotations for the Vael fight.

So what stance would you spend most of your time in as a fury warrior?  Berserker seems nice since it ups your damage even more, but then that wastes the improved overpower.  You could switch to battle to overpower and then switch back, but to me that seems like it could be hard on the timing.  If you stay in battle stance the whole time then you can overpower right away and possibly get two in since you could get the first one off faster.  You could switch to berserker for berserker rage and switch back.  Doing it that way gives up the added damage from berserker stance though.  I'm guessing that getting the most out of improved overpower might make it worth it to stay in battle.
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Stancedance. I can't speak for the dual wield warriors but anymore its rare that I have too much rage that I can't pop into battle, overpower, and back to Berserker for more dps goodness. :D

[Mirajj]

Furbolgs drop runecloth copiously since 1.9, so bandaging is the best heal. The plan is kill, kill, kill, kill, bandage at 20% hp, repeat ad infinitum.[right][snapback]102776[/snapback][/right]

I wish they'd put this change into the game about 3 1/2 months earlier. ;)

[Concillian]

Stancedance. I can't speak for the dual wield warriors but anymore its rare that I have too much rage that I can't pop into battle, overpower, and back to Berserker for more dps goodness. :D
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Yeah, I think you would be going back and forth. You want stances on the keyboard anyway (mine are g battle, h berserker, j defensive, ritght next to my esdf movement keys). With berserker rage you will usually want to be in berserker, but you also have a certain amount of control over rage with that skill, so you shouldn't lose too much going back and forth. Given that overpower will usually crit and therefore proc flurry, it's worth losing some extra rage if you need to, you'll get it back.

And yes, you will likely pull aggro with heroic strike if you have good enough gear, even against defensive stance and defiance and 1H spec. This is why people use cleave or switch 2H and slam instead. more damage / less threat.

[TheDragoon]

Being that in instances I would either be the main tank or have a reliable one, I wonder if the extra threat would matter.  One would assume that the main tank would be in defensive stance doing sunders and revenges.  Its possible they could have defiance as well.  Would a fury warrior in battle stance (more on stances in a moment) pull aggro using heroic strike?  I don't know the answer to that really, but I would think that if you have a reliable main tank (like the ones we have) that it shouldn't be an issue. 

Actually, I have found that if I do not have the added de-aggro from Salvation, that I invariably pull aggro off of any main tank I have played with by spamming heroic strike. Heck, I've even managed to pull aggro off of some of our tanks (even the very good ones) when I DID have salvation up if I'm not careful about using heroic strike.

You need to remember that a dual wield fury build is going to generate a LOT more rage than a sword & board warrior (regardless of spec) that is trying to tank. Also, that fury warrior is doing damage with his/her off-hand, as well, which brings with it extra threat.

What I generally do is spam bloodthirst whenever its cooldown is up. If that isn't using enough rage, then I throw in a few heroic strikes to help balance my rage output and generation. However, that usually only amounts to a couple heroic strikes every now and then.

So what stance would you spend most of your time in as a fury warrior? 

Berserker all the way, in my opinion. When soloing, I generally charge and swap to Berserker for the rest of the fight. Sometimes I will swap back to battle stance to use Overpower, but only if I'm already almost out of rage so that I don't lose a ton of Rage during the stance swap.

Something that I highly recommend for Fury warriors is to pick up the improved Berserker Rage talent. The extra 10 rage is great for giving you rage at the start of a fight to smooth things out in case you happen to miss several times in a row. Berserker rage is one of my favorite things with the Berserker stance since it gives you that 10 rage boost and then extra rage for any other direct or indirect (can you say "AoE" abilities of things like the giants in the Molten Core?). In addition, it's useful for PvP when someone tries to fear you (which happens every 5 seconds or so). :)

[Artega]

Would you care to elaborate / be more specific? 

I don't see anywhere else he can put the available points to get greater than 4.x% damage increase + more rage for specials, not quite as nice as the gain from something like 2H spec, which is a straight 5% + rage, but I see it as the best option for points beyond flurry and BT.  The impale line is less than half the damage for the same investment.

I simply don't see how you can consider these a waste of points, as I see no other option that will add even close to the amount of damage that DW spec does.
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I'll be more specific. Dual Wield Specialization will give you more DPS (going by Rishana's build, in the article linked by the OP), but you're losing Improved Execute (easily one of the best talents in the Fury tree), Improved Berserker Rage (the old version was far better, but the new version is still kickass), and aren't able to get 5/5 Improved Battle Shout (not that 5% is going to make a huge amount of difference.)

As for Rend vs. other options, I simply find Rend to be a massive waste. It lasts 21 seconds at max rank, which is 21 seconds where you will be completely unable to try to pop a Fear for a bandage mid-fight (which is also why I don't pick up the Impale line with my Fury builds.) Second, a Heroic Strike is (relatively) instant damage, while a Rend does less damage over more time; you might not always have 21 seconds in PvP, and 21 seconds is a lot longer than I'd prefer to kill a single mob if I'm grinding or farming. Additionally, Rend does not do initial damage; how can it crit, proccing Deep Wounds? You also mention Rend generating Rage - it doesn't.

[Concillian]

I'll be more specific.  Dual Wield Specialization will give you more DPS (going by Rishana's build, in the article linked by the OP), but you're losing Improved Execute (easily one of the best talents in the Fury tree), Improved Berserker Rage (the old version was far better, but the new version is still kickass), and aren't able to get 5/5 Improved Battle Shout (not that 5% is going to make a huge amount of difference.)

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Those things are all great, which is why they are also in my build. I suggested dual weild vs. the impale line (Imp. Rend + Deep Wounds + Impale), and you said the DW spec talent was garbage. If you skip the impale line, as you said you would in a fury build, there are plenty of points to get all the talents you listed plus DW spec.

I'm at a total loss. :blink:

[Gorthag]

Yeah, I think you would be going back and forth.  You want stances on the keyboard anyway (mine are g battle, h berserker, j defensive, ritght next to my esdf movement keys). 

I was chatting with a friend around Xmas who also plays a warrior in WoW and he shared a great tip. Map your stances to your mousewheel! I have Battle as roll forward (up), Berserker as roll back (down) and Defensive from clicking the wheel. It makes changing stances very intutive as you can do that with one hand while moving the other to hit the key for the skill you want in the new stance. I used to use F1-F3 for stances, but this is much much nicer and frees up keys for other skills.

[Tal]

Additionally, Rend does not do initial damage; how can it crit, proccing Deep Wounds?  You also mention Rend generating Rage - it doesn't.
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The white damage from rend can crit and generate rage.

[Concillian]

The white damage from rend can crit and generate rage.
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:blink:

Rend is a DOT, and doesn't do any damage until a couple seconds after application, when the first tick happens. It doesn't crit and all the damage is yellow damage. Am I missing something about rend? Do you have improved improved rend?

I'd say you were thinking of another skill, but I can't think of any skill that uses rage and also has the potential to generate rage (except for druids >_<). Maybe shield block can if you have shield spec, but you're mitigating damage to gain 1 rage, so it's probably not an overall net gain.

The good thing about rend (and deep wounds) is that the damage isn't mitigated by armor in any way, so when comparing the damage per rage vs. other things, you can do a hamstring to figure out how much mitigation they have (mobs in silithus were giving ~25-30 damage on a hamstring, so around 33-45% mitigation), then you can figure out how much bonus rend has.

People talk about how worthless rend is, but it really isn't that bad if you use it in the beginning of a fight where you are guaranteed the duration. Mostly because it ignores armor. I think if you have improved rend, rage efficiency is quite a bit better for rend than HS.

[Ynir]

I never liked putting points into rend, an attack I don't use, to get wounds and impale, which I thought were essential. I knew that "12.5% extra damage on the offhand" was an oversimplification but I did not know how to conduct the analysis that Concillian provided.

I was excited about specifying for the weapons Spangles uses most often, so, I pruned the arms tree to a twig:

5/5 parry
5/5 tactical mastery
2/2 improved overpower
arms total: 12

Improved heroic strike is gone. I won't use HS, or cleave, or whirlwind, except on adds because they induce downtime in what is otherwise a very fast attack. I can take a point from parry for anger management later, if necessary. The utility of overpower depends on being able to access it quickly from zerker stance, which I will discuss later.

I saw no opportunity to change the fury side except to place 5 points in the dual wield talent:

5/5 cruelty
5/5 unbridled wrath
1/1 piercing howl
5/5 improved battle shout
5/5 enrage
5/5 dual wield specification
2/2 improved execute
2/2 improved intercept
1/1 death wish
5/5 flurry
2/2 improved berserker rage
1/1 bloodthirst
fury total: 39

Improved berserker rage works with improved intercept very usefully, and improved excecute is the essential finishing move. We need all of them. I have not seen a 12 arms / 39 fury build before, but what of that.

There is more to DPS than crit, you must strike the right balance between AP, crit, and +hit.

Well, ok. After weeks of fighting to the last 100 HP, it's time to back off from the bleeding edge. Our objective now is to evaluate the dual wield spec, but with unbuffed attack power augmented from 625 towards 700, and 10% more HP, or 4400. These improvements will come at the expense of +crit.

Spangles makes the following substitutions in gear:

neck:

Will of the Martyr (Stratholme)
+10 stamina
equip: +30 attack power.

armor:
Carapace of Anub'shiah (BRD)
577 armor
+11 Strength
+11 Agility
+22 Stamina
enchant: +100 HP
comment:

Bracers of Valor (LBRS)
261 armor
+7 strength
+3 agility
+14 stamina
+2 spirit
enchant: +9 stamina
comment: hidden, so no fashion concerns

Gauntlets of Might (MC)
468 armor[
+22 strength
+17 stamina
+7 fire resistance
equip: improves your chance to hit by 1%.
equip: increased defense +5.
enchant: +7 strength
comment: this breaks the no-upper-tier rule. I have no use for builds that require equipment to which Spangles has no access. But she does have these, and it is impossible to replace the Stronghold gloves with anything else from inventory. Nice steely graphic.

Edit: after being disarmed repeatedly during a Strat/Scarlet run, we put the Strongholds back on.

rings:

Tarnished Elven ring

Band of the Ogre King
+14 strength
+13 stamina

trinkets:
Counterattack Lodestone

Mark of Tyranny
180 armor
+10 arcane resistanc
equip: increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%.

comment: farm Angerforge for Hand of Justice

Comparing Spangles' statistics then and now, we see:

212 -> 258 strength
182 -> 196 agility
241 -> 283 stamina
4019 -> 4439 HP
3899 -> 4364 AC
27% -> 23% crit
9% -> 11% parry
622/863 -> 728/969 attack power
5% -> 4% +hit from gear

My first impression from a few hours of testing is that the time to kill is not very different: a bit faster, and and the action smoother, perhaps. Spangles finishes a series of fights in much better condition than before, however. This means that she can attack more mobs before she has to bandage, or forgets to. First impressions are usually deceptive, but in this case, they provide incentive to kill a few hundred furbolg to learn more about this configuration.

I left two points in improved overpower because it was so useful when Spangles was arms/fury and wielding the Arcanite Reaper. Overpower works fine in a swat/stare swat/stare encounter. But in a ten-second fight, the process of switching into battle stance, switching to the axe, hitting, and switching back to DW zerker is inefficient.

I have been playing with macros from the following thread:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...tmp=1#post74295

in particular, a macro to change stances if necessary to access overpower:

/script texture,name,isActive,isCastable = GetShapeshiftFormInfo(1);
if isActive then CastSpellByName("Overpower(Rank 3)");
else CastSpellByName("Battle Stance()");
end;

The scheme is to place the button for this macro on the zerker hotbar in the same position as the overpower button on the battle stance hotbar. When in zerker mode, and overpower becomes available, the macro button on the zerker hotbar lights up. Press the button, the macro casts battle stance, the hotbar shifts, and a second button press activates overpower.

Spangles used a simple bag-slot location macro to 1H/2H weapon swap, but this would not fit into the macro above. I downloaded WeaponSwap and Stancesets, documented elswhere in this forum. WeaponSwap puts search-by-name weapon swap functions in the UI. Stancesets swaps weapons in a predetermined fashion whenever a swap function or a stance change is called. These mods work very well, are compatible with CTMod, and are now part of Spangles' mod set.

This code should yield quick access to overpower from zerker stance. The macro makes the right decision, calls battle stance, and the weapon swap occurs properly. The problem is that the macro button doesn't ever seem to light up. Have the furbolg stopped dodging? Is the DW attack too fast for them? I will experiment more, and report.