They are looking at the Shaman now

[nobbie]

From the WoW forums:

Post 1
Post 2

[Treesh]

The review will definitely take a very close look at the Shaman in group and raid PvE environments. Overall healing effectiveness and totem utility will receive an extensive pass, and players can expect improvements to all three trees.

I'm curious about the "totem utility" changes. The things are damned handy as they are. Sometimes I'd like the radius of effect a little bit larger (darned hunters with their Hawk Eyes standing too far away all the time ;) ), but I'd rather that stupid Tranquil Air totem radius be as small as possible. BTW, the horde that whined about blessing of salvation? Morons. They should have whined about kings or wisdom instead. :P

I am interested to see the revamp of the restoration tree, although right now we're pretty darned effective healers if we spec for it anyway. It does get trickier in the 20 mans to be a main healer as a shaman on a tank, but you know what? It should be.

Although, as long as whoever is working on the shaman isn't the same folks that screwed up the pallies, I'll be happy.

[Artega]

Although, as long as whoever is working on the shaman isn't the same folks that screwed up the pallies, I'll be happy.
[right][snapback]102928[/snapback][/right]

Agreed. I think the talent trees are mostly fine as is, though there are some glaring problems:

Improved Strength of Earth and Improved Grace of Air need to be... improved. Both aren't quite powerful enough for the points required, and GoA being a 30-point talent is ludicrous.

Improved Stoneskin Totem needs a major improvement, and should perhaps be bundled with an Improved Windwall Totem talent.

Stormstrike needs an improvement; it costs too much mana, and the only real forms of Nature damage are Lightning Bolt (a 3 second spell), Chain Lightning (a 2.5 second spell), and Earth Shock (an extremely inefficient spell.) Fire damage would seem more appropriate, since you have various Totems, a weapon buff, and Flame Shock to choose from.

Eventide, Improved Healing Stream Totem, and Improved Mana Spring Totem all pretty much suck, but (with the exception of Healing Stream Totem) they're a necessary evil if you want the superb Mana Tide Totem. It'd be nice if you didn't feel as though you were completely wasting your talent points in order to get the one talent you actually want.

I've played main healer (with our priest playing shadowmage for the most part, amusingly enough) with my guild's three-man group in all of our instances up to SM Armory (the priest and I are still a couple levels too low for Cathedral), and am quite happy with Shaman healing so far.

EDIT: Left out Improved Grounding Totem, which literally doesn't do ANYTHING, since the totem is destroyed during the act of absorbing a spell. Sure, it can absorb SOME spells and remain around, but those are very few and far between, and sure as hell not worth two (or even one) talent point.

[Treesh]

Eventide, Improved Healing Stream Totem, and Improved Mana Spring Totem all pretty much suck, but (with the exception of Healing Stream Totem) they're a necessary evil if you want the superb Mana Tide Totem.  It'd be nice if you didn't feel as though you were completely wasting your talent points in order to get the one talent you actually want.
[right][snapback]102930[/snapback][/right]

Quoted for truth, but it doesn't bother me as much as it does some because I'm far from a min/max player. ;) If they weren't percent increases but were some straight numbers, that would fix them. Percentages of very small numbers are still very small numbers. *pokes Blizzard* You paying attention here? Figured that out yet? *pokes again for good measure*

[Kevin]

I have to agree and I've been in groups in Strat, Scholo, DM North and East, LBRS where the only person with healing spells besides the hunter and warlock was a shaman. True solo healing of the 5 mans. The rest of the party were 57-60 in greens and blues. In some cases it was the first time all 5 toons in the party had set foot in the instance sometimes it was the first time that a person or two had ever been in the instance.

Shaman can heal just fine. Of course so can paladins and that is who the shaman's healing needs to match. I think 1.9 did actually up the healing power of paladin spec'd for healing by 5-10% over 1.8 based on my own paladin. So I would expect shaman to get a very minor increase. And yes, improving stoneskin totem improves a shamans healing ability I do consider things like that. :) So since I feel that paladins did get a little better at healing that shaman should two even though both classes could solo heal all the 5 man content.

Fix the bouncing issues that chain heal has (I've seen it not jump to an injured target that should have been in range many many times, hell I rarely see it jump at all) and you've up the healing power of a shaman too. :) And/or shorten the cast time on it or something to make it more than just something that is there as an amusement factor and you help the healing power of a shaman a lot.

Fix the talents that totems get as mentioned. Yeah there are tweaks the shaman trees need. Paladins need druid and priest like changes. Shaman need paladin like changes. :) Well in the magnitude of what the changes do. All 3 shaman builds already change playstyle a lot and make a more noticable difference in damage that can be dealt or absorbed or healing that can be done. So the shaman has the diversity the paladin lacked, but yeah the shaman needs some fixin. I do hope that it isn't what they did to the paladins.

[Rinnhart]

Hahaha, "I hope it won't be like the paladin's..."?

Things may changes, but that is the current plan. I actually do have a level 60 Shaman, and have been playing him more than my priest lately.

It won't be.

[Dozer]

There are some basic, fundamental problems with the shaman in endgame PvE. We are, quite literally, the worst class in the raid enviornment. Four paladins can augment a raid better then eight shamans, do you realize that? Do you realize that the mobility and size of encounters in AQ pretty much makes totems useless?

In a raid, we are casting lesser healing wave 99% of the time, as chain heal really doesn't work consistently enough. And we are the worst healers in long fights in BWL; Druids and Priests get 30% normal mana regen while casting once they have 3 pieces of their Tier 2 set, and zounds more spirit..... Shamans get nothing.

Yes shaman healing is fine in non-raids..... because non-raid instances are cake.

And yes, improving stoneskin totem improves a shamans healing ability I do consider things like that.  :)
[right][snapback]102936[/snapback][/right]

Stoneskin totem is useless. Completely useless. 27 less damage, on a warrior, ends up being about 6 damage per hit, since it is factored in before armor-damage reduction. I use stoneskin totem on ONE encounter, the panther boss in ZG. This is worth losing 63 strength or tremor totem? No.



Shaman talents are, by and large, recycled mage(elemental), warrior(enhancement), and druid(restoration) talents. Take away the talents that aren't recycled, useless, and broken, and we have about 8 talents left. And mages need a review before shamans? Don't make me laugh.

[Quark]

BTW, the horde that whined about blessing of salvation?  Morons.  They should have whined about kings or wisdom instead. :P
[right][snapback]102928[/snapback][/right]

To be fair, this really started when people were breaking into BWL. All the bosses there have much more aggro management involved than MC did.

Vaelestrasz becomes a much smoother fight with Blessing of Salvation. Non tanks simply don't need to worry about aggro, and tank transitions and such are made less likely to fail due to a bad string of misses, as timered BoS reinforces a good tank order. Broodlord and the 3 Drakes all have deaggro abilities also.

What it really comes down to is that, excluding Razorgore, not one of our attempts has failed because a healer pulled aggro. The same wasn't true for the Horde trying to progress through BWL.

[lfd]

In a raid, we are casting lesser healing wave 99% of the time

Like priests with, fight depending, flash heal or dispel magic? :-)

Druids and Priests get 30% normal mana regen while casting once they have 3 pieces of their Tier 2 set

No, we get 15%. Don't assume all priests are specced the same; three of our regular raid are currently shadow specced, and don't have Meditation for the additional 15. How this will change with the new trees in 1.10, I don't know.

And mages need a review before shamans? Don't make me laugh.

All this bitterness over whether class A is more broken than class B. Surely the fact that there is so much disagreement over the ordering suggests that it's rather a subjective issue?

Shamans have some godawful totems and some rubbish talents to improve them, and I'd love to see some more raid-beneficial ones along the lines of the paladin blessings replacing them, but mages have their share of problems too, and your complaints about your totems being substandard doesn't really seem to me to be game-breaking.

Besides, it's not an option to bring 4 paladins to a raid instead of 8 shamans.

You also seem to be falling into the druid trap of forgetting that you're a hybrid class, therefore you're not _meant_ to be as good at healing as other classes. Someone's got to be the worst at it.

[Artega]

Yes shaman healing is fine in non-raids..... because non-raid instances are cake. [right][snapback]102951[/snapback][/right]

And, depending on who you're asking, raid instances are, too.

I agree with lfd; Shamans are a hybrid class - if they are better than the class that they're emulating (Warriors, Mages, or Druids, depending on which skillset you're using at the moment in question), then you have a major balance issue. They aren't as good as Druids at healing, aren't as good as Mages at magical DPS, and aren't as good as Warriors at melee combat, but they can heal (which neither Mages or Warriors can do), nuke (which Warriors can't do), and still be a force in melee combat (which Mages can't be.)

I would think Mages need a review before Shamans, because magic damage is all Mages are - if they can't do this consistently and efficiently, you have a completely broken class, versus a slightly impaired hybrid.

[Dozer]

Like priests with, fight depending, flash heal or dispel magic? :-)
[right][snapback]102961[/snapback][/right]

Priests have renew, Priests have Prayer of healing. In a raid situation, most of the time, i can sit there with four fingers on my keyboard, mashing lesser healing wave with the main tank targeted (and mana conserve on) and recasting totems when i hear the expiration notification sound with my other three fingers. I'm usually watching tv.

No, we get 15%.  Don't assume all priests are specced the same; three of our regular raid are currently shadow specced, and don't have Meditation for the additional 15. [right][snapback]102961[/snapback][/right]

Yes, and what raid guild trying to learn AQ is going to take shadow priests in place of holy priests? or feral druids? or non Restoration Shaman? Any priest wanting to maximize raid effectiveness is pretty much forced into some variation of 26/25, much like Druids are forced to Innervate and Shaman are forced to Mana Tide.
What do Paladins get pressured to spec to, besides Blessing of Kings? (not a rhetorical question, actually wanting to know)

How this will change with the new trees in 1.10, I don't know.
[right][snapback]102961[/snapback][/right]

Meditation is now a 3-point talent at the 11-point position in its tree.

All this bitterness over whether class A is more broken than class B.  Surely the fact that there is so much disagreement over the ordering suggests that it's rather a subjective issue?
[right][snapback]102961[/snapback][/right]

I'll concede that point; that comment wasn't really part of this discussion.

Shamans have some godawful totems and some rubbish talents to improve them, and I'd love to see some more raid-beneficial ones along the lines of the paladin blessings replacing them, but mages have their share of problems too, and your complaints about your totems being substandard doesn't really seem to me to be game-breaking.


Besides, it's not an option to bring 4 paladins to a raid instead of 8 shamans.
[right][snapback]102961[/snapback][/right]

You miss my point. It would be ALMOST excusable if 4 paladins were better for a raid than 4 shamans. But as it stands right now the Shaman laughable. Raiding as horde should not be HARDER than raiding as alliance. It should just be different.

You also seem to be falling into the druid trap of forgetting that you're a hybrid class, therefore you're not _meant_ to be as good at healing as other classes.  Someone's got to be the worst at it.
[right][snapback]102961[/snapback][/right]

That's funny, because neither Druids nor Shamans nor Paladins are hybrids at the raid level. Unfortunetly we neither have the usefulness (Innervate, Blessings, Cleanse, Auras etc) nor the end-game itemization (Lawbringer, Stormrage) to support what we are doing endgame. Don't even let me get started about the stupid,stupid, overlapping, ineffective intent they had when designing Earthfury and Ten Storms.

[Rinnhart]

Priests have renew, Priests have Prayer of healing. In a raid situation, most of the time, i can sit there with four fingers on my keyboard, mashing lesser healing wave with the main tank targeted (and mana conserve on) and recasting totems when i hear the expiration notification sound with my other three fingers. I'm usually watching tv.

Welcome to raiding. It sucks for everyone but the main tank.

Yes, and what raid guild trying to learn AQ is going to take shadow priests in place of holy priests? or feral druids? or non Restoration Shaman? Any priest wanting to maximize raid effectiveness is pretty much forced into some variation of 26/25, much like Druids are forced to Innervate and Shaman are forced to Mana Tide.
What do Paladins get pressured to spec to, besides Blessing of Kings? (not a rhetorical question, actually wanting to know)

Hahaha, we're not "pressured" in to any specs because our specs all blow. We'd rather have good tools to spec for and good tools to have to pick and choose between than the "it's all pretty much the same" that we have.

But as it stands right now the Shaman laughable. Raiding as horde should not be HARDER than raiding as alliance. It should just be different.

I would kill a man for a shaman in the 20 mans, and convert to Scientology if it would get me a shaman for razorgore.

You don't want salvation. It makes people stupid.

And at least you guys have something fun to do on vael when you get BA. Woo! Hammer! Guess I better heal some more.

That's funny, because neither Druids nor Shamans nor Paladins are hybrids at the raid level.

Beautifully put.

Unfortunetly we neither have the usefulness (Innervate, Blessings, Cleanse, Auras etc) nor the end-game itemization (Lawbringer, Stormrage) to support what we are doing endgame. Don't even let me get started about the stupid,stupid, overlapping, ineffective intent they had when designing Earthfury and Ten Storms.
[right][snapback]102977[/snapback][/right]

And yet, you're still the best pvp healer in the game and definately one of the most fomidable classes in any pvp role. Shamans have stupid amounts of utility and while some portions of their talent trees are lacking, you also get some of the best talents in the game, cherry picked from others or not. Your talent choices actually impact your role and playstyle.

I'd go so far as to say alot of the complaining about how terrible the raid game is by shamans is less class specific and more you have so little to complain about that a general player woe has become cornerstone. Raiding isn't fun. No one raids to raid, they raid because they like the people they raid with or because they want something.

[Quark]

Raiding isn't fun. No one raids to raid, they raid because they like the people they raid with or because they want something.
[right][snapback]102982[/snapback][/right]

Go check your ego at the door. You don't know me, you don't know what I'm thinking, and you're certainly wrong about my opinion on Raiding.

[Kevin]

So I sey an improvement to stoneskin would be an improvement to healing. You come back with stoneskin sucks. Maybe that is why I said it needs to be improved? No couldn't be anything like that. I've been saying for a long time that shaman need improvements but since you want to be hostile and I don't care, I'll be hostile back.

Shaman beat the snot out of paladins in most of the ZG encounters. I've done ZG both sides. Poison cleansing totem and tremor totem do some amazingly good things in the MT group, even if you can't have it in the other groups (depends on the shaman). As I've said in several posts in the past, paladin buffs are more powerful than anything a shaman does in a 40 man. This is because blessing of kings and blessing + judgement of wisdom are uber. Hunters don't run out of mana during a fight alliance side. I have to carry mana pots with me and chug them horde side a fair bit as just reapplying the mana drain sting in ZG without using mana for any other attacks can suck a 4000+ mana pool dry and I've got the talent to make the stings cheaper. The extended mana pools that alliance get from paladins, as I've said before make a big difference. The aggro changes the paladins have always had just mean players can be lazier. Kings makes mana pools even bigger and adds 300-700 HP to people too (depending on where they start) that is a huge deal as well because I've healed people and been a person that only had 200 or less HP left. Without kings those are corpses not people that you can heal.

Molten Core, yeah, paladins are better because paladins just have better base buff for raiding. A shaman that isn't playing with silly people (on trash mobs you don't need anyone but priests healing most of the time) should be able to do more DPS than a paladin even if both are healing spec. A shaman brings more to the table in Shazz because they can do ranged damage and a paladin can't. If you are only healing with your shaman in raids and not even doing auto-attacks you are not halping the raid as much as you can, or you are not raiding with the right group of people as they aren't using the shaman as well as they can or they are simply to anal to let people have fun because you don't need ideal groups for raiding and again if that is the case, I'm sorry for you and hope you can find better people to raid with.

I'm sorry your experience with raiding guilds have been so bitter. I've never had anyone tell me what spec I should be with any of the 4 toons that I raid with. I would like to meet all these guilds that say you have to be this spec to their people, I just haven't encountered them, but I don't play with 15 year olds a lot either. I also don't play on the bleeding edge (though we got AQ20 done pretty quickly even I personally have only been in there twice because of personal scheduling issues). I'm pretty sure that CM, the top raiding guild on our server (which has Lurkers in it) doesn't force spec either.

Raid healing isn't any more difficult that 5 man healing. Actually since most raids seem to have more healing than they need, raid healing is usually a lot simpler than 5 man because you don't have to think. As you mentioned you cast one spell over and over again. You might cast it on different people but you pretty much cast your fastest cast heal spell, with mana conserve on and are done with it. Though since I can make great use out of flash of light (2.5 second cast) and healing touch (3.0 and 3.5 second cast versions both) I don't see why a shaman couldn't get use out of healing wave if they wanted to.

In 5 mans, if you are the only healer and you are level appropriate (meaning that the end boss is 2-3 levels bigger than everyone there with you and up to 5 levels bigger than the healer) you do have to make choices on what heal to cast. Since you are the only healer there you have to decide when and how much healing to apply to that person that isn't the main tank, you have to worry about pulling aggro (heal aggro doesn't happen in raids execpt in two situations, the tank gets a big crit right at the start of the fight and his sunder misses, or the tank dies or you're dealing with phase 1 in Razorgore, I still contend that if you get heal aggro in a 40 man raid for any other reason you are doing something wrong, which might be as simply as not trusting the other healers). In a 5 man there are many more ways to get healer aggro so you have to think more.

Shaman are more valuable in the 5 man game and paladin are more valuable in the raid game. I've said that for months as well. However paladins are pretty much less fun to play than shaman, they are less fluid they have fewere choices as to what they can do. Since I've seen elemental shaman push hunter like DPS in lower instances I don't see why they can't do that in MC and only heal on the bosses if they are needed to. I've not seen too a paladin in the same level gearing as a hunter push as much DPS as a hunter. I've seen paladins with significantly better gear than hunters out DPS the hunter. Shaman are amazing in PvP as are well played paladins. They do different things but PvP they both bring some very strong tools to the table.

Shaman need help, but they don't need massive overhauls. Totem mechanics need a rethink because of how end game works. Healing needs tweaking. Many talents need to be changed or fixed. Talent placement in some of the trees needs to be changed and they could even use some new talents. But I'm sorry they aren't as broken as you think.

Really alliance side right now the one class that you can get away with only having one of is a druid and you only need that for the MotW buff. Priests out heal them (and with good gear and paladins around don't need innervates), rogues outdamage them, warriors out tank them. You still want 4 paladins for the buffing they can do. Shaman, yeah I could see only wanting one for most of the encounters as well but, like druids I don't see them being turned away at the door until you get more than four because while they might not be ideal they do bring other stuff to the table that helps.

[Treesh]

In a raid situation, most of the time, i can sit there with four fingers on my keyboard, mashing lesser healing wave with the main tank targeted (and mana conserve on) and recasting totems when i hear the expiration notification sound with my other three fingers. I'm usually watching tv.

Then you aren't doing as much as you can to help the raid. If rogues can get in there and melee, so can you! On the bosses that can't be meleed, cast spells at them! If you're designated as a healer, you can melee and heal at the same time. There's a hell of a lot more to do in a raid that benefits the raid than you just sitting there watching tv instead.

Yes, and what raid guild trying to learn AQ is going to take shadow priests in place of holy priests? or feral druids? or non Restoration Shaman? Any priest wanting to maximize raid effectiveness is pretty much forced into some variation of 26/25, much like Druids are forced to Innervate and Shaman are forced to Mana Tide.

Any guild that wants to actually take down the bosses quickly and easily aren't going to force folks into one spec. It's wasteful to not take advantage of all the opportunities you have available to you. What do your holy or discipline priests do when they aren't required for healing all the time? How about having one of your shadow priests just DPS until they are needed? Same with the druids. You've got a feral druid? Let them DPS if they aren't needed for healing. Even on learning encounters, you don't need every healer healing at every moment of the raid. And shaman are forced to get Mana Tide? Really? Then why is every pickup group amazed to see a restoration shaman when I join them? And yes, these are groups that have some folks in MC and BWL and AQ40 too.

That's funny, because neither Druids nor Shamans nor Paladins are hybrids at the raid level.
[right][snapback]102977[/snapback][/right]

Complete bull. Pallies are kinda stuck without hybrids roles, but druids and shaman can still be hybrids in end-game raiding. We've had druid tanking in MC on some of the dog packs, we definitely have them DPSing whenever we can. There is very little healing needed on the trash mobs and even on some of the bosses so yeah, we squeeze every bit of utility out of the classes we have whenever we can. The last full clear of MC done was done in three hours time (time from first trash pull until looting of Ragnaros), in part because the healing classes are DPSing when they aren't needed to heal. Now, admittedly, it's still warriors tanking most of the time so not all of the utility of the hybrid classes are being used all the time, but more DPS is always welcome.

[Mavfin]

Go check your ego at the door.  You don't know me, you don't know what I'm thinking, and you're certainly wrong about my opinion on Raiding.
[right][snapback]102992[/snapback][/right]

Agreed, Quark. Stow your negativity somewhere, Rinnhart. That's all I ever see from you.

<hijack>

I have a lot of fun raiding. But, I'm not in a 'raid guild' where I'm forced to raid X amount to stay in. I raid when I want, and skip a raid if I want. A lot of times people get tired of raiding because they're in one of the 'top raiding guilds' and they better be available to raid, or they're out. That's just another form of grind. Good for some, not for others.

I sign up to raid because I get to contribute. I got to MT Onyxia for the first time last night. *That* was fun! Doing warders or doing whelps is fun, too, but not the rush of cornering the beast herself.

</end hijack>

[Artega]

Rinnhart v. Dozer
10-round Match to the Death

Who can be more bitter!?

I do agree with the opinion that raiding sucks for everyone but the MT (who is basically the star of the show; being the MT is good for the ego.)

[Dozer]

Rinnhart v. Dozer
10-round Match to the Death

Who can be more bitter!?

I do agree with the opinion that raiding sucks for everyone but the MT (who is basically the star of the show; being the MT is good for the ego.)
[right][snapback]102997[/snapback][/right]

Haha, that reminds me of a guild leader/MT on our server whose ego is bigger than can be put into words.

Anyway, my guild doesn't even [I]have a "main tank", per se; we rotate between 3-5 very well geared warriors. And now that I think about it none of them have any sort of ego. In fact, almost all of them are 30+ year olds with kids and jobs. :D

[Dozer]

Then you aren't doing as much as you can to help the raid.&nbsp; If rogues can get in there and melee, so can you!&nbsp; On the bosses that can't be meleed, cast spells at them!&nbsp; If you're designated as a healer, you can melee and heal at the same time.&nbsp; There's a hell of a lot more to do in a raid that benefits the raid than you just sitting there watching tv instead.
[right][snapback]102995[/snapback][/right]

I don't know what kind of raid guild you are in, but Shamans are there to HEAL, not take unnecessary damage by being in melee range or wasting mana throwing shocks around. If the raid has too many healers, you bring less healers and more DPS; you don't add gimp DPS by having healing classes start whacking things.

Any guild that wants to actually take down the bosses quickly and easily aren't going to force folks into one spec.
[right][snapback]102995[/snapback][/right]

I chuckled at that. Are you joking or trying to make a point about morale? Either way, I'm not talking about if people are having fun at what they are doing, I'm talking about raid effectiveness. My guild doesn't force specs - but feral druids and shadow priests sure aren't getting raid invites unless we're desparate(or doing MC). Every single shaman in our guild is at LEAST 32 in restoration (I'm currently 37, have been as high as 45). If someone wants to be a DPS class in a raid, what do they do? They roll a DPS class. The half-assed DPS fram a healing class in healing gear is detrimental to any raid (or the halfassed healing from a healing class that used all of their DKP on damage gear, for that matter.)

It's wasteful to not take advantage of all the opportunities you have available to you.&nbsp; What do your holy or discipline priests do when they aren't required for healing all the time?&nbsp; How about having one of your shadow priests just DPS until they are needed?&nbsp; Same with the druids.&nbsp; You've got a feral druid?&nbsp; Let them DPS if they aren't needed for healing.&nbsp; Even on learning encounters, you don't need every healer healing at every moment of the raid.&nbsp; And shaman are forced to get Mana Tide?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; Then why is every pickup group amazed to see a restoration shaman when I join them?&nbsp; And yes, these are groups that have some folks in MC and BWL and AQ40 too.
[right][snapback]102995[/snapback][/right]

Like I said, if a druid or shaman gives up innervate or mana tide, that person probably gives up his spot in the raid. We raid to kill bosses, not to see all our healers run out of mana when Chromaggus is at 30%.

[Zarathustra]

That's funny, because neither Druids nor Shamans nor Paladins are hybrids at the raid level. Unfortunetly we neither have the usefulness (Innervate, Blessings, Cleanse, Auras etc) nor the end-game itemization (Lawbringer, Stormrage) to support what we are doing endgame. Don't even let me get started about the stupid,stupid, overlapping, ineffective intent they had when designing Earthfury and Ten Storms.
[right][snapback]102977[/snapback][/right]

I can only assume I'm in some anomaly of a group that uses hybrids across the board. We've got a Feral Druid who will heal or dps as needed, lending Leader of the Pack to a party of rogues. I'll heal or go Moonkin situationally, either helping on the tanks or nuking while lending the Moonkin Aura to the priest, paladin, and warlock in the party. On the Suppression Rooms, I'm always going Moonkin since I can handle a ton of whelps beating on me while I AoE.

I'll concede that a Druid or Shaman are mostly healing in the endgame, just due to the need for healers. But I don't understand your comment on not having the itemization to support this. Stormrage is definite healing gear. If anything, the itemization for Druids is SOLELY healing gear with some exceptions, and they're trying to remedy this with the new A'Q sets.

Was that an accidental generalization based on your views of shaman itemization, or did you really mean that none of the hybrids have proper itemization for what they are doing in raids?

Like I said, if a druid or shaman gives up innervate or mana tide, that person probably gives up his spot in the raid. We raid to kill bosses, not to see all our healers run out of mana when Chromaggus is at 30%.
[right][snapback]103004[/snapback][/right]

How's the inside of the box look, anyway?