the once and future Spangles
#41
Hannibal777,Mar 6 2006, 03:28 AM Wrote:You can argue some talents can be tweaked. May be protection spec can be given power in other areas of the game other than tanking. But you can't honestly tell me warrior is underpowered right now.
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Discussion on warrior under/over powered-ness is virtually useless, because warriors go from being underpowered compared with most other classes at the same gear level when both are wearing green gear to overpowered compared with most other classes when both are wearing ideal purple gear.

Warriors also cannot win most 1 on 1 encounters that start on equal terms, against a player of equal skill / gear level unless they are exceptionally well geared, and/or get lucky with crit / sword spec procs. Clueless rogues and hunters are easy, but when you get one's that know what they are doing, it's nearly impossible to beat them. Mages, Warlocks and shadow priests are all the anti-warrior. Paladins are totally impossible and shaman depends on spec. Holy priests are warrior food, and shield-less shaman are not terribly difficult, but anything else is an uphill battle.

But then if you team them up with a healer, they become a fearsome duo. One of the better in the game.

PvE as well, warriors are very gear and support dependent. Hunters, druids, warlocks, and mages can take out elite mobs that warriors could only dream of taking solo, but are perhaps the best equipped to support healer classes. Warriors in greens do rather paltry DPS, but warriors in the best gear can do as much sustained single target damage than any other class in the game.

Warriors are plagued by circumstance. They can be an easy kill or a wrecking ball, but it depends quite a bit on the gearing and the situation. Support is a big deal as well.

A lot of the nerfing of warriors has been done because with the best gear available, they scale damage in a way that no other class does. This makes the best geared warriors quite fearsome, yet is not representative of the entire warrior population. Lesser geared warriors have to start further and further below the waterline compared with other classes, while the best geared warriors fight to maintain their capabilities. The cycle is endless without change to something more basic than gear and talents. This is the frusration of the warrior.
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
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#42
Hannibal777,Mar 6 2006, 07:28 AM Wrote:This is exactly what they should be doing. Do you play other classes much? Do you know how powerful the warrior class was or still is? Do you prefer to start off with a weak class and then given buffs every patch?

Do not judge a class by how many boosts or nerfs it has recieved every patch. Judge a class by comparing it with other classes. What is the effectiveness in relation to other classess.

You can argue some talents can be tweaked. May be protection spec can be given power in other areas of the game other than tanking. But you can't honestly tell me warrior is underpowered right now.
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I've played Shamans, Priests, Mages, and Rogues, and I'm currently leveling a Shaman. Yes, I have played other classes.

Have you played Warriors that aren't wearing Tier I or better gear?

Did you play a Warrior back at release? That is exactly what Warriors have been - they started strong (in early Beta), then went to incredibly weak (release), then back to normal (1.6.x), and now they've crested (Blackwing Lair/AQ40), and are currently being nerfed back down to the weak point again.

This is what needs to be STOPPED. Blizzard isn't balancing the game by judging all classes at all levels of gear - they're balancing it based on the top 2% of each class, and even then using only the best outcomes of those classes. When they inevitably nerf Windfury Weapon, they're going to look at the triple-crit Windfury procs with a TUF or Sulfuras, not at the Shaman struggling to get by with a Twig of the World Tree and 15% crit.

Blizzard needs to stop being so concerned with churning out patch after patch, and instead spend a good deal of time playtesting each patch at all gear levels before implementing it on the public realms - if they did this, maybe we wouldn't see constant well-written well-thought-out posts on the various class boards about how many flaws are in the class of interest. I'd much rather Blizzard produce one patch every three months that have been QA tested to death and given ample public testing than churn out a patch per month that's only been given a few days of QA testing and a week of public testing. Diablo II was free; WoW is not.
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
The original Heavy Metal Cow™. USDA inspected, FDA approved.
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#43
Concillian,Mar 6 2006, 05:41 PM Wrote:Discussion on warrior under/over powered-ness is virtually useless, because warriors go from being underpowered compared with most other classes at the same gear level when both are wearing green gear to overpowered compared with most other classes when both are wearing ideal purple gear.

Warriors also cannot win most 1 on 1 encounters that start on equal terms, against a player of equal skill / gear level unless they are exceptionally well geared, and/or get lucky with crit / sword spec procs.  Clueless rogues and hunters are easy, but when you get one's that know what they are doing, it's nearly impossible to beat them.  Mages, Warlocks and shadow priests are all the anti-warrior.  Paladins are totally impossible and shaman depends on spec.  Holy priests are warrior food, and shield-less shaman are not terribly difficult, but anything else is an uphill battle.

But then if you team them up with a healer, they become a fearsome duo.  One of the better in the game. 

Warriors are plagued by circumstance.  They can be an easy kill or a wrecking ball, but it depends quite a bit on the gearing and the situation.  Support is a big deal as well.
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Concillian said it better; I derailed my post into a rant about Blizzard's haphazard method of balance patching.

I'd definitely say that well-played Hunters and well-played Shadow Priests are the two classes I fear more than any other (and with any kind of class - even my Shaman fears them), except perhaps a well-played Warlock (which, I frankly believe, is the best class in the entire game when played correctly.)

I have never had problems with Paladins in my gear level - even the very good ones. Sure, I'll lose if they get a good Reckoning Bomb or lucky SoC crit on me (though the good ones usually pull out their shield), but they'll lose if I get a Shield Slam crit followed by an Execute crit, too. Paladins are much more difficult now that they've been given Hammer of Wrath (which I'm disappointed with - it was incredibly fun to run circles around a Paladin for 15 minutes with only 3% HP), but they're still pretty easy kills, along with Rogues of any spec. I also do extremely well against Fury Warriors (especially those that use two fast weapons), and generally fare well against Arms Warriors, too.

Mages is heavily dependant on a variety of factors, particularly the all-important nova resist.

Druids and Holy Priests can usually outlast me (no small feat), unless I'm wearing my Shadow Resistance gear (for Priests/Warlocks, anyway - still pretty weak against Druids.)

It's true that Warriors are crap in most solo situations, but we're quite possibly the best grouped class (Fury and Arms being superb DPS with good durability and Protection being an excellent support class with insane durability against melee.) Even so, there are still numerous problems with the Warrior class that need addressing, and nearly all of them are related to itemization in some way.
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
The original Heavy Metal Cow™. USDA inspected, FDA approved.
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