Gimme some input on my computer choice

[Roland]

Isn't Socket 939 dead? I was pretty sure I read on Tom's Hardware Guide that Socket 939 is on its last legs, with Socket 940 being the future.

If you want a board that can be upgraded, you may want to look into something with a future. :P

[gekko]

Isn't Socket 939 dead? I was pretty sure I read on Tom's Hardware Guide that Socket 939 is on its last legs, with Socket 940 being the future.

If you want a board that can be upgraded, you may want to look into something with a future. :P
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"Dead" is a very relative term for computer components, though (as I'm sure you know). Given that Deebye is upgrading from an Athlon XP 1700, I doubt he's worried about keeping the absolute newest components in his desktop now or ever. I just ordered a socket A motherboard - with an AGP port on it. And I'm going to be more than happy with that for a long time.

gekko

[DeeBye]

"Dead" is a very relative term for computer components, though (as I'm sure you know).  Given that Deebye is upgrading from an Athlon XP 1700, I doubt he's worried about keeping the absolute newest components in his desktop now or ever.
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Exactly. I'm confident that socket 939 will be around for a few years. I'm hapy with my new motherboard overall. It's socket 939, has PCI-e, and can accept up to 4GB RAM. That should do me for awhile.

[Roland]

Exactly.  I'm confident that socket 939 will be around for a few years.

I don't know if you just didn't read what I wrote, or are simply answering in a different way, but here it is again, in plain english:

Socket 939 is dead.

The latest 939 CPU, the Athlon FX-60, is the last Socket 939 CPU to be produced. Period. There will be no more Socket 939 CPUs. That's not to say that the technology is going to instantly disappear off the earth, but any hopes of an "upgrade" will be minimal, since support for the platform is going to be phased out by the end of this year.

I can't state it any simpler. There will be no more CPUs based around the Socket 939 platform. Whether or not you can find a 939 CPU in two years, if you should choose to upgrade, is anyone's guess. You may, you may not. Now, the choice is up to you as to what you choose, but I don't want you to rush into a decision, like you seem to be doing (at least a little; not trying to offend you Deebye), only to find a year down the road your "future-proof" options are 6-months dead.

I used to be just like you, upgrading with the mid-range every two to three years or so, saving me on money while still getting decent enough performance to last me for a bit, albeit with sacrifices. Eventually, my needs began to outpace my computer's abilities, so I moved up the chain. Of course, it also helps that I have a better budget these days, so my upgrade path is much more open. This is balanced out by much higher demands than before, since gaming is 90% of what I do on my computer. :)

I'm not trying to call you foolhardy or rash Deebye. I can sense your desire to jump headlong into this, and not wait, and I can easily see how you rationalize it. That's all fine, since it works for you. What concerns me, however, is whether you're missing what some of us are trying to show you: that you may NOT have the upgrade path you think you have right now in the future. That you are, essentially, buying into outdated technology. That is why we're recommending waiting at least till mid-summer.

About six months ago, I upgraded parts of my computer, including a new motherboard and CPU, but kept some "old" technology (namely, AGP and DDR) to cut down on costs. I'm feeling the pinch of that right now, but thankfully nVidia (NOT ATi) threw us AGP owners a bone with the 7800GS (it will be mine someday soon), and because I'm SO low on the DDR end (I'm almost at the slowest RAM you can get :P), DDR still has plenty of growth room for me (as opposed to DDR2). Looking back on it, however, I almost wonder if my money would have been better spend jumping up to PCI Express. However, I DO know that I'm not about to do any major upgrades until this fall, at the earliest, due to all the new technology slated to come out by then.

Now, what you do is of course your choice, and I won't think you're being unwise should you choose to go forward with your current plan. But I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing you jumped on a bandwagon that has lonce since departed, without at least attempting to show you this. If you want to get the system you have lined up, more power to you. It looks like a great system that will last you some time (minus the PSU, of course, which you really need to increase, especially if you get a better video card). Just don't fool yourself into thinking you'll have much of an upgrade path beyond the next year, tops. Beyond that, you'll be back to square one, building a whole new system. OTOH, with any luck (and with your seemingly low demands), you just may get three comfortable years out of that system. Myself, I can no longer do that, so I'm stuck riding the technology roller coaster. But at least I always have older systems to spread throughout the house. ;) Besides, I LOVE building myself a new rig, even if half of it is all old parts. ;)

Best of luck to you, and I hope you're happy with your decision.

[Roland]

I remember reading somewhere or other that the current on the 12 V rail(s) was far more important than total wattage for the majority of typical users - since all the "heavy" stuff (video card, CPU, etc) utilize the 12 V rail, the others are far less important.

I just recently got a case and PS, and the PS is only a 350 watt.  But between the two 12 V rails, it has almost 25 A, which appears to be much more than I need.  But then, this computer will never see more than two hard drives and a mid range CPU.

gekko
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Next to the CPU, the video card seems to have the highest demand for power. Sometimes it can even surpass the CPU. Don't kid yourself - wattage is equally important as anything else. However, if the power is "dirty" (i.e. a 12V rail is only sending 10V, or fluctuates between 10V and 14V), it won't matter how big the PSU is. You need clean, reliable power going to all the rails, as well as adequate total wattage to supply everything. Failure to have both will leave you hurting, guaranteed. That's why a QUALITY PSU is THE most important component to any PC.

For some, 350W is plenty. Most comp-in-a-box come with that much power. For many, though, especially hardcore gamers, or video editors, 450W and beyond is bare minimum, at least for comfort. I have 480W, and it suits me fine. But 350W? I'd blow that up long before I even connected my video card, even though that's the "minimum" required for my video card. I know, because that's how I got my 480W. ;)

[jahcs]

Socket 939 is dead.
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DeeBye wants a computer now, not a computer when socket 940 comes out. Don't forget the delay between Socket 940 launch and other part availability in the mainstream, such as motherboards and processors. Also, the latest and greatest hardware frequently carries a premium pricetag. The only other choice right now is Intel.

Socket 939 supports dual core and 64 bit computing. These two technologies should ensure compatability for several years, as long as parts are available. Not neccesarily newly developed parts, such as the FX-60, but other processors in the upgrade path from DeeBye's selected chip. The numbers of socket 939 processors that have been made and probably will be available at least for the next year is large. (Unless AMD does some sort of buyback program with sellers, which I doubt they will.)

In the computer industry you can always wait for the next promised technology or you can buy now.

[Drasca]

In the computer industry you can always wait for the next promised technology or you can buy now.
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That's true, but there's still a major price drop for current technology as the new one begins to roll in.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I used to be just like you, upgrading with the mid-range every two to three years or so, saving me on money while still getting decent enough performance to last me for a bit, albeit with sacrifices. Eventually, my needs began to outpace my computer's abilities, so I moved up the chain.
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While the choice of building the ultimate system at any given moment is attractive, it is usually also a waste of money. I've posted my analysis on this in the past, but to summarize: New technology appears now. Games that are well along in production cannot afford to jump on that technology because it means a schedule slide and they already have enough of those. So you can expect to wait pretty much six months to a year before anything comes down the pike that actually uses that technology. In other words, you are now using six month old hardware that you bought at bleeding edge prices. In one to two years, the new and improved technology that you can't live without comes along. But even a mid range machine from a year back will run all the available games, usually with all the bells and whistles. And, really, there's little difference between a year old and a two year old machine.

Also, some people like to swap out components and incrementally improve their machines. Others, like me, prefer leave well enough alone, and just start from scratch periodically. To me, upgrade path is a small consideration in putting a machine together -- I might add memory or a second HD, but that's about all I'll usually do.

And, practically, my experience is that things change relatively slowly. I've built new game machines in '97 for Diablo and 2000 for D2. I'm in the process of putting together the machines that I posted about a few months back. The last two cycles have each lasted about four years, and for the $1200 or so per machine, that's not too bad a yearly investment.

On the other hand, I fully agree with you on the power supply issue. Power supplies are one item that I always seemed to be replacing (fortunately the failures have been benign and I've not lost components to inadequate PSUs). On the principle that it is better to have and not need than to need and not have, this time around I spent a little extra and got a beefy supply.

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

Hi,
While the choice of building the ultimate system at any given moment is attractive, it is usually also a waste of money.  I've posted my analysis on this in the past, but to summarize:  New technology appears now.  Games that are well along in production cannot afford to jump on that technology because it means a schedule slide and they already have enough of those.  So you can expect to wait pretty much six months to a year before anything comes down the pike that actually uses that technology.  In other words, you are now using six month old hardware that you bought at bleeding edge prices.  In one to two years, the new and improved technology that you can't live without comes along.  But even a mid range machine from a year back will run all the available games, usually with all the bells and whistles.  And, really, there's little difference between a year old and a two year old machine.

Also, some people like to swap out components and incrementally improve their machines.  Others, like me, prefer leave well enough alone, and just start from scratch periodically.  To me, upgrade path is a small consideration in putting a machine together -- I might add memory or a second HD, but that's about all I'll usually do.

And, practically, my experience is that things change relatively slowly.  I've built new game machines in '97 for Diablo and 2000 for D2.  I'm in the process of putting together the machines that I posted about a few months back.  The last two cycles have each lasted about four years, and for the $1200 or so per machine, that's not too bad a yearly investment.

On the other hand, I fully agree with you on the power supply issue.  Power supplies are one item that I always seemed to be replacing (fortunately the failures have been benign and I've not lost components to inadequate PSUs).  On the principle that it is better to have and not need than to need and not have, this time around I spent a little extra and got a beefy supply.

--Pete
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To add a UPS or not bother with a UPS, that is a question. I am more of a surge protector kind of guy, cost benefit, but I sometimes wonder if that was the kind of approach that ate my capacitors/mo board a couple of years ago.

Is the money for a UPS a good risk management decision, or does a "good" surge supressor meet the "good enough" standard?

I am pondering that decision, as I intend to pass my gaming machine down to my daughter and make myself another one this summer.

Occhi

[gekko]

Upgrading doesn't have to mean going to brand new technology. Going from an athlon 64 3000+ now to an X2 or a dual core opteron will be a significant upgrade in a year or two, particularly when games start appearing that actually take advantage of multiple processor cores.

And in terms of socket 939 being dead: I can still purchase new in the box processors for socket A motherboards. Socket 939 may not have new processors developped in the future, but they'll be available for years and years. And the current top end 939 processors will be better than the low end of socket 940 or M2 which will be out in a few months.

I agree about the quality of the power supply, but I'm confident 350 watts can be enough, provided we're not talking about high end systems and the quality of the PS is sufficient. I played with the PS calculator linked to earlier in this thread, and with a dual core opteron, 9800 Pro AIW, two hard drives, two DVD burners, 2 gigs of RAM, etc., it only suggested more than 350 watts if the processor load was near 100%. The system Deebye is buying, even with a dual core processor and second hard drive added, should be fine with his power supply. Just like Deebye, I've heard great things about the reliability and quality of antec PS's.

gekko

[Drasca]

I agree about the quality of the power supply, but I'm confident 350 watts can be enough, provided we're not talking about high end systems and the quality of the PS is sufficient[right][snapback]106716[/snapback][/right]

The PSU calculator is a handy tool, but you need to take a hard look on how many amps are available on the 12V rails. Deebye's stats finally came up, and it offers 10A and 15A on the rails. Gekko, if yours provides 18A, that's great and fine for your system, but Deebye should look at how much power his video card will realistically draw.

Fun tool for calculating voltage, ampage, resistence and power:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm

[--Pete]

Hi,

To add a UPS or not bother with a UPS, that is a question.  I am more of a surge protector kind of guy, cost benefit, but I sometimes wonder if that was the kind of approach that ate my capacitors/mo board a couple of years ago.
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You can get a UPS now for a pretty small sum. Something just big enough to do a graceful shutdown in case of a power failure and to bridge the occasional power glitch. Having said that, I've mostly avoided using a UPS except on servers that I leave on all the time. Since I no longer use a computer as a router or print server (my printers are directly on the LAN), I've stopped using UPS and just have everything plugged into good surge suppressors.

Mostly, let your local power conditions be your guide. If you get a lot of power flickers, a UPS might be a good idea. If your power is pretty stable, then it is probably more hassle than it is worth for a home environment.

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

Hi,
Mostly, let your local power conditions be your guide.  If you get a lot of power flickers, a UPS might be a good idea.  If your power is pretty stable, then it is probably more hassle than it is worth for a home environment.

--Pete
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It flickers a lot, particularly in the summertime.

Will probably go UPS for the new machine.

Occhi

[DeeBye]

I am posting this message from my new COMPUTER MACHINE! It's a heck of a lot quieter than my old machine.

[Roland]

I am posting this message from my new COMPUTER MACHINE!  It's a heck of a lot quiter than my old machine.
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Great! First off, congrats on your new rig. I'm sorry if I sounded insulting or anything before. I just hate to see people make decisions uninformed, and then regret it. Computers can be VERY daunting, especially when you're doing more than picking one off a shelf, so I try to help out whenever I can.

Secondly, congrats on a quieter rig! That is, IMHO, one of the biggest prizes of all. If you can build a fast rig that's quiet too, you are in heaven. I don't care how fast my rig is; if the noise drowns out everything else, I'm likely to not even use it. :P

Best of luck to you and the life of your computer!

[DeeBye]

Great! First off, congrats on your new rig. I'm sorry if I sounded insulting or anything before. I just hate to see people make decisions uninformed, and then regret it. Computers can be VERY daunting, especially when you're doing more than picking one off a shelf, so I try to help out whenever I can.[right][snapback]106880[/snapback][/right]

I wasn't insulted in the slightest. I know you and how passionate you get about these sorts of things. I was expecting and hoping for a reply like that.

Secondly, congrats on a quieter rig! That is, IMHO, one of the biggest prizes of all. If you can build a fast rig that's quiet too, you are in heaven. I don't care how fast my rig is; if the noise drowns out everything else, I'm likely to not even use it. :P[right][snapback]106880[/snapback][/right]

I really like this Antec case. There is a nice big 120mm fan in the back that runs at a fairly slow speed. It moves a lot of air and is almost silent. One of the really nice things it features is a side-mounted exhaust, with a shroud that goes directly to the CPU fan. I haven't checked it under load, but right now my CPU is idling at 30C. The only thing that really makes noise is the optical drive when it spins up, but that's par for the course.

When I got home, I of course opened it up and had a peek at all of the components. I was really impressed at how this thing was put together. All of the cables were neatly zip-tied together and tucked away. Where possible, the cables run along the edges of the case. Almost nothing runs anywhere near the fans, shroud, or motherboard (except where they had no choice). Whoever assembled it certainly knew what they were doing.

As a side note, my 3 year old son is growing up to be a geek. When he saw my new computer, the first thing he said was "Can I see inside it? I want to check it out" :blush:

I do have a couple of minor gripes though. The case is kind of a pain to open up. You have to slide the top off before you can pull the side panel off. It does have just two thumbscrews, but it would be much easier if you could just pull the side panel off without having to fart around with the top panel. This makes closing it back up a tricky procedure, because you have to line up both the top and side panel before you can reinsert the thumbscrews. Or maybe I'm just not coordinated enough to pull this off. I sometimes have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time.

My main gripe is one I've been trying to solve for the past hour or so. My motherboard supports the hot-swapping of SATA drives. This causes Windows to give me an ever-present "Safely Remove Hardware" icon in the taskbar, nevermind that the hardware that is safe to remove is my one and only harddrive which contains Windows itself. I might just follow up on Windows' suggestion and yank the drive while powered up just to see what happens. Or maybe not. I know that I can hide this icon, but I'd much rather find a way to truly fix the problem. I haven't found any workarounds that really appeal to me. That icon is ugly.

My final gripe is the Logitech optical mouse included with my purchase. It's just a vanilla optical mouse. It works well enough I guess, but it really sucks compared to my old MX510. It has to go. Out with the new and in with the old. The Logitech keyboard is nice, though it lacks the satisfying "clackity-clack" feedback of my 6-year old Compaq beast. It's really comfortable to use though, so I'll stick with it.

And finally, here is the payoff picture. I took this with my cellphone, so it's a bit fuzzy. And yes, the first game I installed on this machine was Diablo 2 :)



Check out the creepy Logitech centre channel perched atop my monitor. It feels like Johnny Five is watching every move I make :wacko:

[jahcs]

Yikes, make a grille for that speaker. :blink:

Congrats on the new rig. Any shots of it's innards?

[DeeBye]

Yikes, make a grille for that speaker. :blink:

Congrats on the new rig.  Any shots of it's innards?
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That speaker is really CREEPING ME OUT!

I took a few shots of the innards and I'm transferring them from my phone to my computer as we speak.

edit: Here we go. Again, I apologize for the quality of the pictures. I seem to have misplaced my digital camera so my cellphone will have to suffice. Click the thumbnail to enlarge the picture.

This is the best shot I could get of the inside of my case. After taking this shot, I realized that the X550 video card (the red card in the middle of the shot) is passively-cooled. I'm definitely going to swap this out for a better video card in the future, but I absolutely love passive cooling. The fins should be pointing UP to take advantage of the case fan though. You can clearly see how nicely the cables are tied off in this shot. Also you can't really tell from this shot, but the two sticks of OCZ RAM have a metal wrapping on them. It looks kinda cool, but I don't know what real purpose that serves.


This picture shows how the side vent and shroud meet up with the CPU fan. It also shows off the patina of my 100-year old farmhouse table/computer desk. My MX510 mouse makes an appearance in the very bottom left corner. I couldn't use the included mouse any longer.



My new computer has 8 friggin' USB ports! Two up front and six in the rear. That's kinda cool.

[Chaerophon]

Hey Dee, just thought I'd let you know - I, too, am now a member of the mx510 club. 30 bucks from Future Shop! :P I really like it. My only complaint? It can be quite a loud clicker.

[DeeBye]

Hey Dee, just thought I'd let you know - I, too, am now a member of the mx510 club.  30 bucks from Future Shop! :P
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$19.99 from Staples after rebate :D