Naxxramas

[MongoJerry]

How big is The Core? If your raid draws from a stable pool of around 60 people, then you can finish old content before burnout occurs.  Casual-friendly raid guilds require more people to fill raids. This stretches the time to finish MC, creates burnout in the early 'hardcore' raiders, and results in turnover for the guild.  If this process loops back fast enough, you get endless MC.

That's why the goal from the guild's birth from the ashes of The Offenders was to keep the guild large enough to raid but always no bigger than that. In practical terms, I'd say we have about 60 very active players, another 20 semi-active players, and maybe another 20 who are there for more social reasons and don't tend to go on major raids.

If a guild is too large and has a lot of turnover, there are some things you can do. First of all, you can throw out the chaff and stop recruiting people you don't need. But if that's not possible (say, you're in an inclusive guild like The Basin), you can also create sub-classes of raiders within the guild. For a while, The Core assigned people to the "A-team," "B-team," and "C-teams." Basically, the A-team was the front raiders who consistently showed up and were willing to take the repair costs of learning new bosses, and were therefore guaranteed a spot in the "A-list" raids like BWL if they showed up on time. The B-teamers could take up spots if for whatever reason some A-list people didn't show up and if the raid needed that particular class. C-teamers rarely got to go on the A-list raids and were there mostly to socialize, PvP, and maybe go on some of the smaller raids. On the other hand, when MC came up, B-teamers and C-teamers got first priority, which sometimes made the runs slow and painful, but at least they got the chance to raid and get some epic gear for themselves. As A-teamers left the game or guild, people could get promoted based on their attendance and willingness to donate needed materials to the guild. We had this system going for about six months but decided to abandon it when we realized we weren't quite big enough to need as formal of a system as that.

So, if you set up something like this for your own guild, you could have your A-team have the same type of attendance requirement that I first mentioned in my post above. That is, they could be required to show up only for BWL and AQ40, and in return for this requirement, they get first priority on these raids. Then, MC and AQ20 and ZG runs can be scheduled, but these would be considered "optional" raids for A-teamers so that those who want to have some time off can do so and not get raid burnout. Non-A-teamers could then go on these MC and 20-man raids and get loot they need. Of course, any dkp system you have in place would need to keep track of dkp earned in BWL and AQ40 seperate from any earned in MC. (We award loot in 20-man raids with simple need-before-greed /rand 100 rolls). Non-A-teamers would again know they have the potential to be promoted to A-team status based on their guild participation.

[Hedon]

Your A,B,C Raid-Tier System sounds interesting.

Unfortunately Raidleaders of IFFHDS have opted to go another way: Because different people want to raid different objectives (MC, BWL, AQ), raid leadership decided that everyone is morally oblieged to participate in every raid type, to help each other out. The reasoning behind this is, that if everyone would only go on their preferred raids, we would not be able to do raiding at all anymore.

Then we have a rule that once you particpated on an MC run with your Main, you are allowed to take one of your alts on the next MC run, unless raidleadership decides otherwise (to few healers, bad luck friend). This provides another incentive to do MC runs.

And then there are the "We do not have perfect raid compostion today anyway" raid objectives downgrades. I made some enemies when I had left the raid, as it was downgraded from a schelduled AQ to an MC raid, because the raid composition wasn't supposedly even good enough even for BWL.

And finally there is the Nef problem: Although most of BWL is firmly on farm status now, killing Nef is still a major time sink for us, as it usally requires some attempts and you have the stupid 15min Cooldown between each attempt.
So we usally clear BWL upto Nef on one day, and do Nef the other day prior to AQ. Doing Nef can take a while, and after he finally goes down, everyone is to tired to make any serious AQ attempts. We have not downed Huhu so far, yet Nef because of his fat loot is higher in the priority list then AQ content.
Nef is due to the length of the encounter itself and the moronic 15 min cooldown imho such a #$%&ty encounter, that I hate it almost as much as MC.

[MongoJerry]

And finally there is the Nef problem: Although most of BWL is firmly on farm status now, killing Nef is still a major time sink for us, as it usally requires some attempts and you have the stupid 15min Cooldown between each attempt.
So we usally clear BWL upto Nef on one day, and do Nef the other day prior to AQ. Doing Nef can take a while, and after he finally goes down, everyone is to tired to make any serious AQ attempts. We have not downed Huhu so far, yet Nef because of his fat loot is higher in the priority list then AQ content.
Nef is due to the length of the encounter itself and the moronic 15 min cooldown imho such a #$%&ty encounter, that I hate it almost as much as MC.
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Yep, I understand and remember. It takes killing him a few times to get him on total farm status. But it doesn't take many successful attempts to get to the point where you can kill him on the first try. Once you get to that point, you can do all of BWL in one evening, which makes things much easier.

It also helps if you have some incentive to keep your raid moving. The best thing that happened to our raids was the introduction of the AQ Scepter quest series, which includes as a requirement a BWL clear from Vael to Nef in 5 hours. When we first got this quest, we thought it was going to be tough on us, so we really focused and our raid leaders figured out a lot of who would get what loot ahead of time. Before that quest happened, our BWL runs would average 6-7 hours. When we actually did the quest, though, it took four hours and that even included a wipe on Nefarian. Once we knew we could do that, we started pushing ourselves to get faster at it and reduced downtimes during the run. Like I said, our typical run is now three and a half hours. When the runs go that quickly, they're much more enjoyable.

Two tips:

1. As much as possible, whoever is deciding loot should have a good idea of who loot is going to ahead of time. If you spend 10 minutes deciding loot at each boss, that's an extra 10mins x 8 bosses = hour and twenty minutes that you're adding to the run. Even reducing that to 5 mins/boss adds 40 minutes of wasted time for the raid. We use loot council, and our class leaders know our loots already and tend to be able to award loot quickly. If you use dkp, be ruthless about getting the bidding/rolling going.<>
   
2. Have a hunter or set of hunters who are sadistic pullers who keep pulling mob groups after mob groups. It is amazing how much time gets wasted when you sit and wait too long between each trash pull.<>
   [st]

[fractaled]

I don't mind the arms race so much.&nbsp; Someone in tier 2 epics should probably beat someone in blues.&nbsp; However, what bothers me is how much faster offense has grown compared to defense.&nbsp; My philosophy is that a fight between two players in tier 2 epics should last about as long as fights between two players in blues.&nbsp; Unfortunately, that's not the case at all.
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WoW is 3 or more games in one. PvE (1-59), PvP (BGs), and raids.

The arms race destroys the PvP game. And at the same time is the way "progression" works with raids. The fact that they haven't done simple things to the BGs to help this means future itemization will only further destroy the BGs. By simple things I mean things like make sure their are even fights in AB/WSG (ie no 5 on 10s) and preventing high-level enchants on low-level items. More complex things like evening out equipment differences somehow would also be quite welcome.

I know Blizzard put a lot of thought into some aspects of the game. 1-59 seems pretty well done. They obviously had plans for the BGs long before they were implemented (ie the 4th BG portal in Aszhara), but I'm not sure if they really resolved how two separate game mechanics would interact in the same world with each other.

[Artega]

WoW is 3 or more games in one. PvE (1-59), PvP (BGs), and raids.

The arms race destroys the PvP game. And at the same time is the way "progression" works with raids. The fact that they haven't done simple things to the BGs to help this means future itemization will only further destroy the BGs. By simple things I mean things like make sure their are even fights in AB/WSG (ie no 5 on 10s) and preventing high-level enchants on low-level items. More complex things like evening out equipment differences somehow would also be quite welcome.

I know Blizzard put a lot of thought into some aspects of the game. 1-59 seems pretty well done. They obviously had plans for the BGs long before they were implemented (ie the 4th BG portal in Aszhara), but I'm not sure if they really resolved how two separate game mechanics would interact in the same world with each other.
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Personally I'd like to see the 60+ game divided into item-level-restricted sections. That way people with tier0/tier0.5 (ilvl 63ish) won't find themselves pitted against tier2 (ilvl 200 billionish.) Seems like such a rather simple solution, and it wouldn't be too hard on everyone if they implement cross-server PvP (which I've heard is rumored to be in 1.12, the PvP patch.)

[Warlock]

(deleted by poster)

[Drasca]

Personally I'd like to see the 60+ game divided into item-level-restricted sections. 
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I'd like a bigger stretch of itemization. For BG's, you're only allowed BG PvP equipment, and everyone gets the same items, or same selection items. That way, you can assure balance.

Of course for a majorly PvE game like WoW, people wanting the arms race advantage will cry foul, while those not so well equipped would be happier. If you want true balance, you would have to do something like this.

[Artega]

I'd like a bigger stretch of itemization. For BG's, you're only allowed BG PvP equipment, and everyone gets the same items, or same selection items. That way, you can assure balance.

Of course for a majorly PvE game like WoW, people wanting the arms race advantage will cry foul, while those not so well equipped would be happier. If you want true balance, you would have to do something like this.
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Or make all the raiders go to PvE servers, thereby leaving our PvP servers less clogged <_<

[Hedon]

I'd like a bigger stretch of itemization. For BG's, you're only allowed BG PvP equipment, and everyone gets the same items, or same selection items. That way, you can assure balance.

Of course for a majorly PvE game like WoW, people wanting the arms race advantage will cry foul, while those not so well equipped would be happier. If you want true balance, you would have to do something like this.

Will never happen because this is a MMORPG and not a FPS. The main difference between RPG and other games is, that the skills of the char weigh more than the skills of the player. This is why you have all the stats on your MMORPG char: to reflect how good he is on certain things. Improving your char is a main motivation factor in these games. By improving your char you get bet than others, even if them are better than you on actually controlling the game on a personal level.

The often repeated lament that equip > skills is true, and it is intended. If you don't like it, then may I ask you why you just don't play a FPS like e.g. UT 2004 where everyone starts even and the only equipment you pick up ist that on the battlefield itself? Sounds more like the game you are looking for.

[Warlock]

Will never happen because this is a MMORPG and not a FPS. The main difference between RPG and other games is, that the skills of the char weigh more than the skills of the player. This is why you have all the stats on your MMORPG char: to reflect how good he is on certain things. Improving your char is a main motivation factor in these games. By improving your char you get bet than others, even if them are better than you on actually controlling the game on a personal level.

The often repeated lament that equip > skills is true, and it is intended. If you don't like it, then may I ask you why you just don't play a FPS like e.g. UT 2004 where everyone starts even and the only equipment you pick up ist that on the battlefield itself? Sounds more like the game you are looking for.
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All true. However, the source of upgrades is dissatisfying to many.

Some people like to play solo. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding.
Some people like to play in small groups. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding.
Some people like player vs player combat. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding (with a limited exception for those that play almost continuously).
Some people like crafting. The best recipes and many components for this are obtained through raiding.
Some people like raiding. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding.
Some people like a variety of playstyles. The best equipment for a mixed playstyle is obtained through raiding.

If instead of the raid or quit paradigm each style was in general the best way to improve your equipment for that style there would be a lot fewer dissatisfied players. For instance, learning new high level epic crafting recipes could be learned as a result of making several different related rare pieces.

[Jarulf]

It's also possible that this came about through simple down-priority by Blizzard. They have something in mind to fix it, but Naxx is more important to them. Personally, though, I'll stick with the cynical view. Thinking about Blizzard choosing to prioritize 40-man over 5-man or balanced PvP makes me angry enough to go all ninja on Irvine.&nbsp; :shuriken:
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Perhaps the "other solution" is something they want to wait with until the expansion. After all, they have to put something new into it.

[Ashock]

All true. However, the source of upgrades is dissatisfying to many.

Some people like to play solo. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding.
Some people like to play in small groups. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding.
Some people like player vs player combat. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding (with a limited exception for those that play almost continuously).
Some people like crafting. The best recipes and many components for this are obtained through raiding.
Some people like raiding. The best equipment for this playstyle is obtained through raiding.
Some people like a variety of playstyles. The best equipment for a mixed playstyle is obtained through raiding.

If instead of the raid or quit paradigm each style was in general the best way to improve your equipment for that style there would be a lot fewer dissatisfied players. For instance, learning new high level epic crafting recipes could be learned as a result of making several different related rare pieces.
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I agree with you. It sure seems that all the content before getting to 60 (and definately all the items) is completely irrelevant. Since all of the best items can only be gotten through raids and 99% of them are soulbound on pickup, most people do not play any other characters except the ones who can raid. Why not, since there is no items that you can get (and therefore be more powerful) that can be gotten through world drops. It's like there are 2 games. You play the first, and when you switch to the second, everything you did before that becomes irrelevant.

You can't raid until you are 60 or around that, so the whole game boils down to getting to 60 ASAP and hope that you will be fortunate enough to be included on some of those raids, the first few of which you will be basically allowed in through the good graces of your friends/guildmates. Solo content exists.... until you hit 60.... at which point it drops to NONE. Basically, you have to tailor your RL to the game, not the other way around. Instead of playing when you can at your liesure, you have to do it when the rest of your guild is raiding, or you're SOL.

I was enjoying myself a lot until I hit the mid 40s, when I suddenly realised that everything I do now will be worthless in a month. Every item I get will be sold to the vendor. My rather extensive experience at playing warriors will be useless with all greens/weak blues and another 25-30 people beside me.

Oh, I'll probably stick around to 60 anyway, since there is nothing better to play anyway atm, and I do want to see the "other" game anyway, but basically Thecla warned me about this, that $@#$@#$@#$....... :shuriken:


-A

[Monkey]

Oh, I'll probably stick around to 60 anyway, since there is nothing better to play anyway atm, [right][snapback]107564[/snapback][/right]

I think your post sums up the history of my Alt aspirations. I leveled my warlock and was beginning to raid when my warrior hit 60; While raiding with both, I began my druid.

However as 60 approached for the 3rd time, it occurred to me that I would be running Molten Core for weeks yet again...and then Blizzard announced 1.10! With its beefier 5-man endgame and good reasons to be really good at 5-man, it sounded like the patch for me.

So I headed to Duskwood--no one there was ever able to 10-man their class sets; people will always have to 5-man the endgame, and I think it will really improve the opportunities there. I'm rather excited about it, and I wish 1.10 was how the game had come to retail.

[Ashock]

The often repeated lament that equip > skills is true, and it is intended. If you don't like it, then may I ask you why you just don't play a FPS like e.g. UT 2004 where everyone starts even and the only equipment you pick up ist that on the battlefield itself? Sounds more like the game you are looking for.
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While games like D1 and D2 were not MMOs, they were definately closer to WoW than to an FPS. There (especially in D1) it was all skill, as long as your eq. met minimum requirements... and that equipment was not hard to get as long as you put in at least some time into the game.

A game *should* give some advantages to better geared players, just not as much as WoW does, where you can take a player with relatively weak skills and aptitute towards these games, stick 'em in epics and he/she will succeed where a skilled player with weak gear will always fail, be it PvE or PvP. This game is geared towards either those that have no kids (or have grown kids, preferably not living in the same house, or those who play with them) or those who are themselves kids (including college students). An adult with a normal family life is not someone who can enjoy this game to even close to it's fullest. Therefore, Blizzard's claim that this game is for the casual gamer is complete and utter bull...t.



-A

[MongoJerry]

An adult with a normal family life is not someone who can enjoy this game to even close to it's fullest. Therefore, Blizzard's claim that this game is for the casual gamer is complete and utter bull...t.

Aha, you're taking one extreme and going to the other. Blizzard never said that WoW was exclusively for the casual gamer. They said that there would be plenty of content in the game for the casual gamer. That does not mean that a casual gamer would get to experience every single thing in the game.

[Ashock]

Aha, you're taking one extreme and going to the other.&nbsp; Blizzard never said that WoW was exclusively for the casual gamer.&nbsp; They said that there would be plenty of content in the game for the casual gamer.&nbsp; That does not mean that a casual gamer would get to experience every single thing in the game.
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Well, at this point in my life, I consider myself somewhere in the middle. I come from work early, at about 3 pm. About twice a week, I get to play for an hour or so in the afternoon while my wife is at work and while I help my son to do his homework, and every evening I play from about 9:30pm 'till 12:30am, at which time I go to bed, so I can wake up at about ... ummm.... 4:30 am. Yes, I do not require more sleep than that, as long as I can get about 2 hours sleep in the middle of the week in the afternoon once. On weekends, I get an odd hour here or there and the usual 9:30PM PST until ....this time about 2:30am.


I think this makes me a bit more than casual, as I do not play more than one game at a time. Basically, during the day, raids or even instances are out obviously, so at lvl 60 I really will not get any meaningful content from the game at least for my future lvl 60 at that timeslot.

This leaves evenings. At the times I mentioned, my chances are not that great. They do not mean that I will never get to raid, but they *do* mean that a lot of the time, when I get to 60 I will have NOTHING to do with my capped character, since unless I somehow get into a raid (which will not be easy at that time, even if people are willing in theory), I will have no reason to play my character.


When I played D1 (3 years straight) and D2 (on and off for 5 years, 2 years straight starting from the Beta), I could just log in with my lvl 10 Barb and play. I could also log in with my lvl 50 Barb and play. I could also log in with my lvl 90 Barb and play and get items and beat down mobs. Not only that, but I could even log in with my lvl 99 Barb and play and have fun and find items to make my char more powerful. More importantly, I could play him anywhere, even after they nerfed the Barb to death. It was difficult, but possible nevertheless.


Yes, there is content for the casual gamer or even a semi-casual gamer. Content like there is content in the cliffnotes from a real book.



-A

[Monkey]

Aha, you're taking one extreme and going to the other.&nbsp; Blizzard never said that WoW was exclusively for the casual gamer.&nbsp; They said that there would be plenty of content in the game for the casual gamer.&nbsp; That does not mean that a casual gamer would get to experience every single thing in the game.
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It's not that casual gamers should get to experience everything, it's that beyond Tier 0 (which I'm admittedly still unfamiliar with), there isn't currently an upgrade path for casual gamers. As Warlock pointed out, there is hardly* a part of the game where the 'best' isn't exclusively available through raiding.

I've often wondered, as with the Dungeon sets, why the epic sets didn't drop in a couple of different sized instances. For example, why didn't Blizzard make T1 bracers and belts as BoP drops off quest boss in UBRS? Or a hard-to-unlock BRD quest boss? Sure, then everyone and their kid sister would have easier access to those epics and it would be slightly less epic to have the whole set. Is that a really bad thing, though? Wouldn't flattening out the gear curve help other places a bit?

Heck, give these hard-to-reach bosses cooldown timers and a small chance to drop one lava core/firey core/core leather. Suddenly the 5-man/casual gamer has a slower-than-a-raider upgrade path with drops and crafted epics.

However, my feeling as we discuss these issues is that Blizzard's current plan is "We'll fix it in the expansion" which is frustrating to those of us playing the game now but probably fast enough in Blizzard's opinion.



*If I recall correctly, the exception to this rule is Alchemy.

[Hedon]

Despite being a raider myself I have always criticized the lack of non raid content. I did this because my raiding enthusiasm has always been somewhat wavering as I have already gone through a raid burnout phase (pre BWL) and I'm somewhat suffering from it again now, and I always wanted something worthwhile to do in WoW, even I didn't felt like raiding the same instance for the xth time.


The casual faction on the forums and their complaints on the WoW-Forums had always my deepest felt sympathy ... up to Patch 1.10.

Before patch 1.10 the so called casuals often claimed that they didn't wanted epics on a silverplatter, they just wanted something to do and the occasional epic reward for this, and that reputation grinds are a lame excuse for content (which they are indeed).
Then came patch 1.10 and Blizzard reworked the old end game instances: Stratholme, Scholomance, and UBRS, with new itemization, less trash spawns, but also a 5 man cap (10 for UBRS), as well as adding questlines to upgrade their T0 equipment, partly up to epic status.



The following deluge of whines from casuals filled oceans:

Scholo and Strat are way to hard to 5 man it. Only those already equipped in epic gear can make it in 45 mins up to Baron in Strat.
Thats such a bull#$%& I can't believe any selfrespecting WoW player, casual or not, may utter it without blushing from shame.

This probably sounds arrogant, but we 5 manned Scholo and Strat during those good'ol days after release, when they haven't yet removed any spawns from these places, and people looked at you odd for going with only 5 people into it. 5 manning these instances was incredible fun, and far from impossible. We managed to do Strat from the side entrance up to Baron, equipped with blues and greens, within a good hour, without rushing it. Considering that some spawns have been removed during a series of nerfs from then on, doing it in 45 mins seems very well possible, especially if you push it a bit. This is all under premise, that everyone is on voice com and knows the basics of his class and of instancing.

People responded on the WoW-Forums that such level of expertise can't be expected of casuals because all they do is PUG, there is always some moron in the group and being on voice com is an unreasonable demand anyway, because there is no native function in the game to support it.

Excuse me, but WoW is not rocket science. The basics of 5 man instancing can be described like follows: Tank it, spank it, heal the tank and the occasional AEer. That's it. There is nothing more to it. You don't have to calculate mana/heal ratios, spirit to mp/5 efficiencys, elaborate on aggro functions or carry expensive consumables to do it. Is it really that hard to get into a guild of 5 to 10 people, so you don't have to suffer from PUGatory constantly and do these quests?

One should have been warned after patch 1.7 already, as many wanted smaller raid content for medium sized guilds and Blizzard came up with ZG, which is a wonderful medium sized raid instance, with Epic drops generally as good as MC gear, and the best blues to be found in the entire game, all beautifully designed, and the same people that asked for these kind of instances complained that 20 man raids are, now when they give it a second thought, unreasonable for casuals. Now these people claim that even 5 man instances are too much asked for.


Let me reiterate: I respect everyone who sais that 40 man raids, and all the corporate like raid guild feeling, with it's time requirements, DKP accounting, hierarchys and other rather unpleasent side effects, isn't their cup of tea and that they also deserve ways to improve their char after hitting lvl 60, that go beyond mindless rep grinds, BUT a Massively Multiplayer Game is designed to reward socializing, otherwise there wouldn't be much sense to experience this game as this little world it is, that is called your server. So go out make some friends, or at least some acquaintances. You will not only get better gear, but also a much richer playing experience.

[Thecla]

but basically Thecla warned me about this, that $@#$@#$@#$.......&nbsp; :shuriken:
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Well, I'll take that as a compliment. ;) And, as someone who scrimped and saved for their mount, I am truly impressed by your gold accumulating talents. (Still, given the real importance of gold in the game, I can't resist asking: Is this "World of Warcraft" or "Ages of Arbitrage"?) But I agree with many of Jarulf's comments in another thread. I do think WoW is really well done, and perhaps one shouldn't expect it to cater to an anti-social online game player such as myself, but why not?

I really enjoyed coming across some of the out-of-the-way places (like Newman's landing off the coast of Stormwind, or a little Murlock camp north of the Swamp of Sorrows with a treasure chest that never seemed to respawn) . Yet Bliz seems to have done so little to reward players who might be interested in doing something else other than 40-person raids (not to say that people who enjoy participating in such raids shouldn't be rewarded), or even smaller instances where if it happens you have to leave in the middle, you are ditching your group.

Anyway, it seems to me to that there is a lot more room in the game for all kinds of different players than Bliz has currently satisfied, but I'm not optimistic that they will explore it (unless the profit motive dictates otherwise, not that there's anything wrong with that).

[Warlock]

*snip*
The casual faction on the forums and their complaints on the WoW-Forums had always my deepest felt sympathy ... up to Patch 1.10.
*snip*

I don't think there isn't much overlap between the group complaining about the difficulty of the 1.10 quests and the group complaining about the lack of endgame small group content. I'd already quit before 1.10 came out, but it's clearly a step in the right direction.

Conflating the two groups is like raiders refusing to contemplate small groups getting access to Molten Giant grade loot because C'thun is hard. A type of post I've seen far too many of on the Bliz forums, so I hope that I've misunderstood you.