Druid Epic/Legendary Item

[Zarathustra]

So, Zarathustra, sorry for the sidetracking your discussion.  What were your ideas for an epic/legendary druid weapon?
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I was thinking much of what's been touched upon already. I actually hadn't considered a Legendary item at all when I first started brainstorming the weapon.

My initial idea was to have a dual weapon akin to the Priest (and, at one time, Hunter) rewards. It would not be difficult to have one form aid casting while another was more feral focused. The casting form would be a staff with +dam/heal (to apply to both offensive casting and healing), hefty casting stats, and either some mana/5 or casting regen. I'd say when casting offensively, running out of mana is the biggest hurdle to overcome. An Evocation-type OnUse ability came to mind, but it occurred to me that this would be redundant with Innervate and terribly imbalanced. A Druid would never run out of mana with that weapon if they had 31 points in Restoration.

The Feral form of the weapon would serve both cat and bear forms, and maybe be a mace rather than a staff. Lots of strength and stamina, enough +Armor to surpass any current ingame options (Warden Staff & Unyielding Maul), some +crit, +defense, and maybe the new Feral Attack Power. It's bad enough that Druids already need two different sets of Feral gear in order to specialize well. I'd like to see the weapon be useful for each.

Considering the above, it came to me that Blizzard has even said publicly that they don't feel Druids are a "true" hybrid. They can perform multiple roles, but not all at once. With that in mind, I'd say a Legendary item combining both the above would work best. Since a Druid will never be using all of those abilities at one time, I see no problem with giving them an abundance of stats. The big barrier I see there is the Blizzard forums where some child would start screaming how unbalanced it is for a Druid to get a weapon giving a ton of attack power in forms AND serious caster stats.

I don't want to give up raw stats alltogether, but perhaps an effect that's only active in each form would be worth it. Just throwing ideas around, here's what I came up with in addition to any stat increases that are always active...

Cat & Bear Forms: Attack Power increase
Bear Form: Armor and Defense (there are VERY few options for +def in leather)
Cat Form: Threat reduction
Travel Form: +30% movement speed, making the Druid move at 170%, passing up a level 40 mount by 10%.
Moonkin: 15% mana regen while casting

There's little way I could justify purple text on any item that gave all those bonuses, regardless of the fact that they wouldn't all be active at once. If it'd have to be orange, so be it.

And as a staff, I'd give it a wound vine look like the hunter quest bow. Part of the quest would involve "planting" the seed of the staff in the ground. Going oldschool D&D with a living staff for a Druid.

[MongoJerry]

Travel Form:  +30% movement speed, making the Druid move at 170%, passing up a level 40 mount by 10%.
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The trouble with this one is that the PvP set already gives this kind of bonus and that people already complain that druids almost travel as fast as epic mounts as it is. Druids would be even more dominating in WSG with such a staff. At the minimum, it would have to not be able to stack with the PvP set bonus.

The other stuff sounds pretty good. I'm trying to think of what would be some special "orangish" abilities that a druid legendary weapon could have. What besides normal stats should it have?

[Kevin]

The trouble with this one is that the PvP set already gives this kind of bonus and that people already complain that druids almost travel as fast as epic mounts as it is.  Druids would be even more dominating in WSG with such a staff.  At the minimum, it would have to not be able to stack with the PvP set bonus.

The other stuff sounds pretty good.  I'm trying to think of what would be some special "orangish" abilities that a druid legendary weapon could have.  What besides normal stats should it have?
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Another form would be something pretty legendary, but I can't think of anything that isn't horribly game breaking or that isn't just a silly little eye candy trick. And keep in mind I think current itemization and power creep is already game breaking. But that is something that pretty much every RPG sees (not just computer but pencil and paper too).

It's all part of the god complex. A GM (P & P referenced GM/DM again) sees this great mechanism to create something, by the game rules even, and they add something cool and more powerful because they have to power to do it, but suddenly this super arch nemesis has been reduced to a pretty casual encounter because the power level went up so much. You can even look at the Dungeons and Dragons and look at what was uber powerful in the first printing of that game and look at what it has now and that has been a relatively stable and slow moving platform, but the power creep hit it too. It's actually one of the things that back when I did a lot of P & P gaming that attracted me to first addition Palladium Fantasy. The power creep was much more under control. Then Rifts got so popular and PFRPG was ruined a fair bit by slapping some of that ruleset on it (though really Heroe's unlimited has a strong hand to play because they translated things that were supposed to be for super heroes only and suddenly rules allowed regular poeple to have them in another game world entirely because they were cool, and yes I did like some of it, but I started to modify the rules so heavily to tone some of it down that it got silly).

Boy that was tangential. :)


Bah now I can't remember what I was going to say for other possibles for cat, bear, healer, caster, etc.

[MongoJerry]

The Blizzard item designers have come up with their answer for how to design a high level epic or legendary druid weapon. Take a look at The End of Dreams, shown on the Lurker Lounge front page.

[oldmandennis]

Um not close to legendary. It's a whopping 1 AP better then the blessed quiraji for deep feral. And there are better healer 1h's to be had in Nax. If anything, this item is a millstone around druids necks. They will be "forced" to take it, and then be told to pass on Twisting Nether. And then told to give their Regalia to Warriors.

No, the world still waits for a real druid legendary, just like shaman do.

[MongoJerry]

Um not close to legendary. It's a whopping 1 AP better then the blessed quiraji for deep feral.

It's purple. It's called an epic, but it's still pretty awesome. One thing you're not quite getting is the fact that druids *gasp* change forms, and this is an item that one can use that isn't totally useless when you switch forms. Since you made the comparison, Blessed Quiraji items are meant to be really good. I'm still waiting for my staff, I know that. So, what you're saying is that this is like a Blessed Quiraji item for deep feral that also has functionality when the druid transforms out mid-fight to heal themselves or teammates or moonfire spam something. That sounds pretty good to me.

And there are better healer 1h's to be had in Nax. If anything, this item is a millstone around druids necks. They will be "forced" to take it, and then be told to pass on Twisting Nether.

Priest mace.

But, nah, if they didn't include The End of Dreams, then druids would just complain that Blizzard only includes resto gear for druids. Since there are so many ways to play a druid, there's never going to be anything that perfectly satisfies any particular druid, but I think this kind of changing effect on an item depending on the form that the druid is in is on the right track.

[oldmandennis]

One thing you're not quite getting is the fact that druids *gasp* change forms, and this is an item that one can use that isn't totally useless when you switch forms.

Bah! /waves paw

I could be just as silly and point out that a druid can change their weapons as well as their forms. Infact you definatly would want to swap weapons, after you take into account enchants.

Granted, it is still a very nice item. But oomoonkin weapons aren't that hard to find, even if you are usually squablling with many other classes for them. Hmmm... the biggest benefit to the +AP may be that it is a trump card to take the item away from shamages.

No, trying to make a jack of all trades item in the slot where A) it can be swapped in combat andB)there are a variety of powerful enchants is probably not the way to do. Throw a gob of feral AP on a caster chest, where the best enchant is probably +4 stats, now you are talking.

I'd be much more excited about a decent feral offhand. It's really pretty bad that the best thing to pair this or the BQWH with is from live strath.

Feral Offhand legendary: On use creates a shield that drops user from combat and clears aggro. User cannot attack while shielded (but can switch gear). Lasts 5 seconds, 15 min cooldown. 20 str 20 agi 10 sta 10 int 5def 70 feral AP.

[Warlock]

You know how some pure caster items have a normal melee DPS value for their ilvl?

The End of Dreams is just another of those except that it has reduced melee DPS outside of bear/cat form.

It's not a hybrid weapon. As a Druid, I'd rather ditch the +Feral AP and have normal item DPS so I do a touch more when trying for OOC procs - presuming that an equivalent melee item is available to switch in, of course.

[Tuftears]

I'd feel sad about spending a couple months grinding CC Exalted for the Mace of Unending Life except that I realize it's going to be a pretty long while before the Alliance gets to Naxxramas. Gotta pay your dues to move on, friends.

This thing is literally twice as good as the Mace of Unending Life in every way.

[oldmandennis]

You know how some pure caster items have a normal melee DPS value for their ilvl?

It's not a hybrid weapon. As a Druid, I'd rather ditch the +Feral AP and have normal item DPS so I do a touch more when trying for OOC procs - presuming that an equivalent melee item is available to switch in, of course.

The problem is that feral AP doesn't cost anything according to the itemization formula. White DPS does, and if it is below average (like this one is) then points are refunded to be spent on other stats.

[Warlock]

The problem is that feral AP doesn't cost anything according to the itemization formula. White DPS does, and if it is below average (like this one is) then points are refunded to be spent on other stats.

Do you have a reference for that? I'm pretty sure basic DPS is free, with some caster items having artificially low DPS to make them unattractive to rogues and warriors (a year or so ago there were regular priest/mage complaints that rogues were taking caster stat items for base DPS and weapon speed, though I can't remember specifics).

[oldmandennis]

Do you have a reference for that?

I've seen it thrown around enough (sometimes with numbers) that I believe it. Gonna be too busy tommorrow at work to fire up the formulas myself. I believe Aurastone is one that sacrifices dps for stats, if you want to check there. The DPS is supposed to be free, but if an item has less then it should, there is a formula for converting it to stats.

[Quark]

I've seen it thrown around enough (sometimes with numbers) that I believe it. Gonna be too busy tommorrow at work to fire up the formulas myself. I believe Aurastone is one that sacrifices dps for stats, if you want to check there. The DPS is supposed to be free, but if an item has less then it should, there is a formula for converting it to stats.

How do you know this doesn't apply to +Feral AP also? +Feral AP is free in that it's a sub-in for white dps on weapons geared towards druid, and thus it should be completely ilvl dependent. Why shouldn't the same rules apply to +Feral AP that apply to pure DPS, where it can be a reduced "free" for extra points?

Sample size is too small right now. For all we know, +Feral AP can be a direct relation to DPS, and thus DPS being lowered for itemization points would mean +Feral AP is lowered too.

[MongoJerry]

How do you know this doesn't apply to +Feral AP also? +Feral AP is free in that it's a sub-in for white dps on weapons geared towards druid, and thus it should be completely ilvl dependent. Why shouldn't the same rules apply to +Feral AP that apply to pure DPS, where it can be a reduced "free" for extra points?

Sample size is too small right now. For all we know, +Feral AP can be a direct relation to DPS, and thus DPS being lowered for itemization points would mean +Feral AP is lowered too.

I suspect (and I have nothing concrete to back this up) that +Feral AP is "free" compared to the pure caster stats like +damage/healing and +spell crit%. That is, it's "free" compared to the stats that can't be used simultaneously as +Feral AP. At least, that's how I would do it.

[Skandranon]

I suspect (and I have nothing concrete to back this up) that +Feral AP is "free" compared to the pure caster stats like +damage/healing and +spell crit%. That is, it's "free" compared to the stats that can't be used simultaneously as +Feral AP. At least, that's how I would do it.

It's free under the most commonly understood definition of free, as in, costs no itemization points, compared to anything.

Mace of Unending Life ilvl 70

Predicted DPS = 0.966 * 70 - 15.9 = 51.72
Actual DPS = 41.5
points gained through sacrificed DPS = 6.48*10.2 - 12 = 54.1

Predicted ItemValue = 51.66 (ilvl 70) + 54.1 = 105.76

9 Strength = 2070
7 Agility = 1610
10 Stamina = 2300
11 Intellect = 2530
40 damage/healing = 7680

Actual ItemValue = ([(2070^1.5)+(1610^1.5)+(2300^1.5)+(2530^1.5)+(7680^1.5)]^2/3)/100 = 104.57

The non-Feral AP stats on the item account for all of the observed ItemValue (the 1.2 point difference is attributable to rounding error, most items exhibit a 1-2 point deviation from predicted values). Feral AP on this item is valued at zero (this item has +140 AP in feral forms).

Hammer of Bestial Fury ilvl 71

Predicted DPS = 52.6
Actual DPS = 52.4 (rounding error, no DPS sacrifice involved)

Predicted ItemValue = 52.33

90 Armor = 1980
13 Strength = 2990
12 Stamina = 2760

Actual ItemValue = ([(1980^1.5)+(2990^1.5)+(2760^1.5)]^2/3)/100 = 53.98

This item has +154 AP in Feral forms. It is slightly overbudget, but within the 1-2 point margin for error I mentioned above. This item has no caster stats. If Feral AP had any significant weighting, this item would be significantly overbudget: therefore, Feral AP must be valued at zero on this item, as well.

As a side note, the comparison of these items seems to suggest that +AP on feral forms is ilvl based but not dependent on the weapon's actual DPS. Mace of Unending Life has 10 less DPS than the Hammer, yet only 14 AP (1 DPS) less Feral AP.

[Warlock]

It's free under the most commonly understood definition of free, as in, costs no itemization points, compared to anything.

<excellent details snipped>

I stand corrected regarding itemisation points from reduced weapon DPS.

To a first approximation it looks like the MoUL is budgeted correctly for it's stats then had the base DPS (that you never use in feral forms) reduced and the points from that spent on spell damage (that you also never use in feral forms). A bit like the Robe of Winter Night. Nice, and more subtle than I'd realised.