A very good read.

[pakman]

I have heard it said that ours is "the government of whoever can pay for it."

That sure is true here in Illinois. I don't know ir any other state can be as corrupt as this one. So far the Chicago City Hall is under investigation by the Feds and they're not just going after the little folk, they're going after the big players like His Honor D'Mar Himself, Richard M. Daley. They just convicted a bunch of his buddies this past year.

The current Governor is also under investigation by the Feds for hiring scams. While the previous governor is going to rot in jail for his own set of scams.

The Speaker of the House has had some shady business deals in his home county our here where I'm working for the summer. They haven't gotten to him yet, they're still concentrating on Abraham who decided to put money in his freezer.

If you've got connections, like anywhere, but especially here in IL, you got yourself a city or state job.

Is anywhere else as #$(%*&^$~ up as here?

[Chesspiece_face]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this, and the search function wouldn't play nice...

Scholars for 9/11 Truth (lots of reading!) claims something's up with the US government and 9/11 (yeah, old news). Bush creating his own Pearl Harbor to further his agenda? Woah.

After thinking about it some more, the WTC tower collapses do look like something out of a demolition documentary, which I've seen a number of.

I'm only going to pick on a couple things here, because i've seen this page before and viewed as a mouthpiece for these individuals to argue a point I feel it fails miserably. A great many of the issues they focus on and bring up, even if accepted as fact, are ambiguous and can be construed in multiple ways. Which isn't to say there aren't valid topics of discussion in the debate they are attempting to have, just that they focus on all the wrong areas, and end up shooting themselves in the foot.

If they really want to raise questions regarding the events of 9/11 they would be smart to take a page out of the book of Bertrand Russell. The most interesting fact this site brings up is that 5 of the 19 supposed hijackers have been found alive. All this shows however is that the story we know and accept about 9/11 isn't entirely correct. It doesn't mean anything more.

If they wanted to try to reinforce their claim to a conspiracy they would be better off focusing on the attack on the pentagon as opposed to the attack on the WTC. There is much more evidence there that could be used to further their agenda. With the video obtained through Judicial Watch many of the questions raised in regards to that aspect of 9/11 are much stronger arguments. Including questions regarding the official response to why there was so little debris from the plane being that it "vaporized" on impact.

Point being, these people may be scholars but they should take a couple more classes on logical inferences and should revise their position so that it's based on the areas with stronger evidence as opposed to stronger emotions.

[kandrathe]

There are people that think that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy of the US government. Because that was the subject, I reacted on that piece of theory. So I mentioned the head of the US government which happened to be Bush, end who happened to have lied quite a lot.
I know a lot of other people try to convince us of something, but why would I mention them if we are talking about 9/11?

But, there would be many potential conpirators who would have more to gain than the Bush administration. One could argue that the attack on the WTC could be an attempt to discredit the US or Bush. To make people question their assumptions of safety and security, and to doubt the effectiveness of their government. It 's almost as if the alleged Al Queda attackers seem to be the most plausible explanation. If it was a Bush engineered plan, you'd think he and Cheney would have been better prepared and not so seemingly out of the loop. And, then a week later they would have sprung a well thought out reaction plan and looked like genuises, but instead we banned plastic knifes from being able to spread butter during a flight and make everyone stand in long lines so we can smell their feet.

So maybe the conspirators are multi-national food companies that are trying to displace spreadable food toppings, or multi-national shoe companies that are promoting odor free, slip on foot wear. When you ignore the evidence, it's pretty easy to speculate into the realms of the absurd.

[Smoketest]

Are you saying planes did not strike both towers? Sounds like it to me. It's not interesting to me, since it is conspiracy theory fiction most likely meant to propel political propaganda. The real purpose is to herd the ignorant sheep. Which are you? Sheep, or Shepherd?

Where did *I* say that? Did you even bother to visit the site? Or do you always react this way?:rolleyes:

Read before posting please. And direct your ire, if any, toward the folks at that site. I am neither affiliated with them, nor do I necessarily believe in what they have to say. I merely found it to be interesting reading.

[Alram]

Where did *I* say that? Did you even bother to visit the site? Or do you always react this way?:rolleyes:

Read before posting please. And direct your ire, if any, toward the folks at that site. I am neither affiliated with them, nor do I necessarily believe in what they have to say. I merely found it to be interesting reading.

You suggested that the wacko conspiracy theory might actually be true

After thinking about it some more, the WTC tower collapses do look like something out of a demolition documentary, which I've seen a number of.

The response you got was justfied imo.
The conspiracy theory is so divorced from reality it doesn't really deserve discourse.

[Occhidiangela]

. . . it doesn't really deserve discourse.

Agreed. Better to talk about perpetual motion machines.

AE

[Smoketest]

Your opinions are noted, but I maintain his somewhat harsh response was not justified.

[eppie]

But, there would be many potential conpirators who would have more to gain than the Bush administration. One could argue that the attack on the WTC could be an attempt to discredit the US or Bush. To make people question their assumptions of safety and security, and to doubt the effectiveness of their government. It 's almost as if the alleged Al Queda attackers seem to be the most plausible explanation. If it was a Bush engineered plan, you'd think he and Cheney would have been better prepared and not so seemingly out of the loop. And, then a week later they would have sprung a well thought out reaction plan and looked like genuises, but instead we banned plastic knifes from being able to spread butter during a flight and make everyone stand in long lines so we can smell their feet.

So maybe the conspirators are multi-national food companies that are trying to displace spreadable food toppings, or multi-national shoe companies that are promoting odor free, slip on foot wear. When you ignore the evidence, it's pretty easy to speculate into the realms of the absurd.

That's also why (like I stated before) don't believe in these theories. I do believe the attacks were very, very convenient for the neocons and they are doing everything to profit as much as possible from it....not so much politically but rather financially. Because indeed those big shoe and food companies are also owned by neocons.... <_<

Point being, these people may be scholars but they should take a couple more classes on logical inferences and should revise their position so that it's based on the areas with stronger evidence as opposed to stronger emotions.

An important point here however (which is mentioned before) is that most (non conspiracy believers) without questioning believe the things the US government tells them. Which, to my opinion is not really a reliable source since there are teh neocons......in the aftermath most of there statements about Irak etc. were proven lies.

Your absolutely right those scholars should take some extra classeson logical inferences, but don't you think also the 'normal' people that believe in the Al Qaida plot should?
History has teached us that history is written by the 'winner' of the war or the most powerful side, or (longer ago) the one that was able to write.

My mother worked about 3/4 of a kilometer from the WTS and just got out of the train station when the 2nd plane hit. She saw it hit the building. Of course there is no reason for you to believe me either.
-A

As a matter of fact I do believe you.

But indeed there is no reason for me to do that, to me the nick called ashock can also be just some computerprogram....a lurkerloungebot or so.:D

[pakman]

Yeah? Well my dad can beat up your dad. With his teeth.

My freshman year at Purdue I had this Comp. Sci. professor we all called "Crazy Bob," and deservedly so. Crazy Bob was a conspiracy theorist. He took a whole class period to tell us his conspiracy theories on the WTC and that it was this big orchestrated plan, blah, blah, blah. He even invited all his classes to attend a presentation by his group about the current administration and their involvement in the WTC crashes; I believe about 20 people I knew went for the entertainment factor. Needless to say, his nickname was well earned. However, he did give us the answers to the final exam before the final exam because it was his last semester teaching B). He was moving on to become a professional conspiracy theorist :shuriken:.

[kandrathe]

That's also why (like I stated before) don't believe in these theories. I do believe the attacks were very, very convenient for the neocons and they are doing everything to profit as much as possible from it...

And, that is why I accused you of being myopic. If your bus is late or your milk is sour, it must be Bush's fault. I feel you and many other liberals wave that Bush bashing cloth as way to recognize each other. It's like part of the secret handshake, "... eat granola, save the planet, Bush sucks, and bike to work."

If you recall, the economy tanked after 9/11 and many people became unemployed, growth was sluggish. You are wrong if you are thinking chaotic messes are good for corporations in general, and I recall it moved the stock market from being bullish to being bearish. So no, neo-cons focused on the economy would want non-stop double digit growth which for other than the military suppliers requires peace and stability.

This is why the Neocons were myopic in focusing on Saddam Hussien as he was the most vulnerable bully in the neighborhood. It is not easy to declare war on "all the bad people who want to hurt us", but it is easier to go after the one vulnerable nation state that was breaking all the rules. And, it helped that we already had alot of our equipment pre-positioned after GWI. I believe the Neo-cons would have profited more by preventing the WTC event and looking politically like defenders of America and by solving the Iraq problem without an invasion. But, that horse has left the barn.

[kandrathe]

Where did *I* say that? Did you even bother to visit the site? Or do you always react this way?:rolleyes:

You will notice I framed my post in the form of a question. I gave you room to clarify your position. You seemed to be advocating the site. Now, if you had said "Here is a crazy conspiracy theory site" I would not have posted.

Read before posting please. And direct your ire, if any, toward the folks at that site. I am neither affiliated with them, nor do I necessarily believe in what they have to say. I merely found it to be interesting reading.

I dub this... "The Ghostiger" defense. Which is, "You don't agree with me, so you must not have read it or be totally lacking in reading comprehension."

First there is no ire, I am calm. Sorry if you read ire into my post. I did go to the main page of the site and looked at the general thrust of the articles and decided it was so wacko that it was not worth my time reading much of the opinions of wacko conspiracy theorists. I opened the MIT engineer link you suggested and again a few minutes of his speaking (after a lengthy prelude of documented misconceptions) led me to the same conclusion. The purpose of that site in my opinion is disinformation which at it's most innocent is to deceive people in order to shape a political agenda. Sort of a politically focused "National Enquirer". So, not very interesting to me. I like my fiction to have a better plot.

Debunking the 9/11 Myths

[pakman]

In my freshman year at Purdue I had this Comp. Sci. professor we called "Crazy Bob," and rightly so. Crazy Bob was a conspiracy theorist and told us so while in class. In fact, he spent that entire period enumerating his theories about the first term Bush administration, their involvement with the bombing of the WTC complex, and other political ideas of his that seemes a little off-the-wall. He even invited every one of his classes to a presentation being given by his fellow conspiracy theorists and their organization. I think 20 people I knew attended for the entertainment factor. However, he did give all his classes the answers to the final exam before the final :whistling:because it was his last semester teaching. His future plans were to become a professional conspiracy theorist :ph34r:.

[eppie]

And, that is why I accused you of being myopic. If your bus is late or your milk is sour, it must be Bush's fault. I feel you and many other liberals wave that Bush bashing cloth as way to recognize each other. It's like part of the secret handshake, "... eat granola, save the planet, Bush sucks, and bike to work."

Next time I blame some problems with public transport on Bush, please correct me....but I don't believe that was the case.
I'm not a liberal as well. I don't know what liberal means in you country, but in my country they are rich people's party.
I do bike to work....in Italy even.... which means risking my life everyday. But he, I'm not a sissy, I'm not handicapped, and I'm not Italian....i refuse to take a car.:D
but seriously, you do know where your tax money is going or not? Do you honestly believe the US is just giving those billions to Iraq to do something nice with it? The fact that weapon industry and building contractors etc. make a lot of money, is not a secret and it has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.

If you recall, the economy tanked after 9/11 and many people became unemployed, growth was sluggish. You are wrong if you are thinking chaotic messes are good for corporations in general, and I recall it moved the stock market from being bullish to being bearish. So no, neo-cons focused on the economy would want non-stop double digit growth which for other than the military suppliers requires peace and stability.

This is why the Neocons were myopic in focusing on Saddam Hussien as he was the most vulnerable bully in the neighborhood. It is not easy to declare war on "all the bad people who want to hurt us", but it is easier to go after the one vulnerable nation state that was breaking all the rules. And, it helped that we already had alot of our equipment pre-positioned after GWI. I believe the Neo-cons would have profited more by preventing the WTC event and looking politically like defenders of America and by solving the Iraq problem without an invasion. But, that horse has left the barn.

I know the overall economy didn't go that well......but a lot of people (especially does knowing about the plans of the government) earned money (I also earned money on the stockmarket). This is by the way the standard way in which companies which are on the stock exchange operate. It is not about teh company, it is about the shareholders.....long term goals don't exist, because shareholders can switch (but I don't need to explain this I guess).

I don't know how that would go. I guess nobody would believe it if the government said they prevented an attack on the WTC. I mean the disaster was also to strange to imagine (if it wouldn't have happened).
Also, why are they not blamed now that it happened?
Point is the neocons don't need to have a good image, the neocons need to be in charge. Even if there is a democrat administration the neocons will have power.

[Alram]

People have a tendency to pick and choose the conspiracy theories that suit their outlook of the world.
Let's have a few more.

Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist and the real purpose of Planned Parenthood and abortion is to control the population of the black race.

President Roosevelt knew in advance of the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and used the attacks as an excuse to enter World War II.

Lincoln's assassination was engineered by Stanton.

Douglas Adams was killed because his novels were too close to the truth.

The international Jewish conspiracy

The Clintons had Vincent Foster killed.

The Holocaust actually never happened.

[Occhidiangela]

The international Jewish conspiracy

The Holocaust actually never happened.

Aren't those the same conspiracy? The necessary condition for the second is that it is a fraud perpetuated on the World by the first.

FWIW, a very interesting (if long) read is Niall Ferguson's two volume treatment of the Rothschild financial empire/network. The Rothschilds established a well known and extremely effective international, Jewish led, Banking Network that, among other things, made the Baron Rothschild the richest man in the world at his time of his death (think Bill Gates, twice over, in relative worth). It also financed the spread of railroads in Europe. A variety of other causes and effects are attributed solely to the Rothschild's due to their prominence and ability to finance darned near anything by the turn of the century, but Ferguson, and I think he's supports his position well, finds this critique reductionist in the extreme. Somewhat cloudy is the Rothschild influence and support of the Zionist movement, which Ferguson doesn't cover in as much detail as Barbara Tuchmann does in "Bible and Sword." That latter seems a required read for anyone puzzling through the continuing Middle East sore spot regarding Israel.

The root of the conspiracy theories, I think, grow from the smart business move that the heads of each Rothschild bank / House (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Vienna, Naples) made: making themselves indispendible to the various European aristocrats/kings/nobility in terms of financing their sundry endeavours via bonds rather than by draconian short term taxation. National debt as a credit card policy, writ large. At the same time, the Rothschild houses used an information network (insider trading developed to a fine art) to finesse the various fluctuations in the European bond markets to a general, overall increase in wealth. Capitalists of the purest sort, those financially acute Rothschilds. Getting Knighted, as a Jew, in Victorian England was no small feat. The head of the Rothschild house earned that honor, or perhaps bought it. Not the first purchased peerage, eh? :huh:

Ferguson's work ends, for practical anaysis, with WW I. He lightly covers the Rothschild family's various pursuits up to about 1999. What I read into that was that the family diaries and records he had access to, a lot of which had been held tightly for decades, were not available for any time past 1945.

The conspiracy theorists generally assert, as did Hitler did in Mein Kampf, -- this is not a Godwin moment, nor is it intended to equate all conspiracy theorists with old Adolf, each has his own axe to grind -- that the financial network was used as leverage to erode, to corrode, to corrupt, and to generally ruin the European/Germanic/what-have-you (and Christian) culture as a counter to the enmity the Jew had earned/experienced in Europe from the time of the Crusades to the present. The alleged plot is the aim to replace the global cultural standard(s) with something else/lesser/Jewish/athiest/secular (pick as many as you think apply), That package includes "Communism" and other malevolent perversions of Western society (as seen by our tin foil hat friends). Of course, presuming a monolithic and virtuous "western" or "European" society, or any presumed homogenity, is the appeal to the romantic memory of Charlamagne's empire, and one of the core weaknesses in this whole structure -- thanks to the diverse modes and norms in Europe alone.

The Chinese must find all of this immensely amusing, and to a certain extent, strategically beneficial. It provides a means by which its strategic opponents divide themselves, like the Irish divided before the English Crown for centuries, and thus forego unified action vis a vis China's pursuit of global hegemony over the next generation or two.

Sun Tzu giggled, Clausewitz wept.

Occhi

[eppie]

If you've got connections, like anywhere, but especially here in IL, you got yourself a city or state job.

Is anywhere else as #$(%*&^$~ up as here?

Yes I live in Italy now.

People have a tendency to pick and choose the conspiracy theories that suit their outlook of the world.
Let's have a few more.
Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist and the real purpose of Planned Parenthood and abortion is to control the population of the black race.

This one is a bit easier to counter or not?

President Roosevelt knew in advance of the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and used the attacks as an excuse to enter World War II.

Was the holocaust not enough reason?

Lincoln's assassination was engineered by Stanton.

This is from the pre-internet afe or not.....?

Douglas Adams was killed because his novels were too close to the truth.

I am ashamed I don´t know this Adams

The international Jewish conspiracy

What do you mean with this?

The Clintons had Vincent Foster killed.

I don´t know Vincent Foster.....but the Clintons seem to nice to do such a thing.:rolleyes:

The Holocaust actually never happened.

I don´t know how it is in the US, but if you say this in Holland, you risk going to jail....so be careful my friend.
I heard the dutch goverment is looking for you, and because of that they are planning to bomb JFK and Dulles now.:D

[kandrathe]

QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *
President Roosevelt knew in advance of the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and used the attacks as an excuse to enter World War II.

Was the holocaust not enough reason?

All during WWII there were rumors in the US of atrocities by the Japs and the Huns. Lots of rallying nationalism as well. But. take for example, the current situation in Iraq; US troops are accused frequently of very heinous atrocities, and only after investigation are some discovered to be true. I wish none of them were true, because beyond the inhumanity, it makes the entire effort harder (and eventually impossible) to win. These war crimes incidents were committed pretty frequently by both sides armies in WWII, but it is especially dangerous once it becomes a State sanctioned behavior. I think the general attitude of Americans prior to declaring War on Germany was "It can't be true what they are saying, they just want to get us into the war."

It's pretty tough to train men to be cold blooded killing machines, but also refrain from barbarity and revenge.

[Alram]

QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

People have a tendency to pick and choose the conspiracy theories that suit their outlook of the world.
Let's have a few more.
Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist and the real purpose of Planned Parenthood and abortion is to control the population of the black race.


This one is a bit easier to counter or not?


QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

President Roosevelt knew in advance of the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and used the attacks as an excuse to enter World War II.


Was the holocaust not enough reason?


QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

Lincoln's assassination was engineered by Stanton.


This is from the pre-internet afe or not.....?

QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

Douglas Adams was killed because his novels were too close to the truth.


I am ashamed I don´t know this Adams

QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

The international Jewish conspiracy


What do you mean with this?

QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

The Clintons had Vincent Foster killed.


I don´t know Vincent Foster.....but the Clintons seem to nice to do such a thing. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(Alram @ Jul 14 2006, 03:29 PM) *

The Holocaust actually never happened.


I don´t know how it is in the US, but if you say this in Holland, you risk going to jail....so be careful my friend.
I heard the dutch goverment is looking for you, and because of that they are planning to bomb JFK and Dulles now. biggrin.gif

I don't believe or care about any of these conspiracy theories. Except for "Douglas Adams was killed because his novels were too close to the truth." which I know to be accurate because I made it up.

[Occhidiangela]

I don't believe or care about any of these conspiracy theories. Except for "Douglas Adams was killed because his novels were too close to the truth." which I know to be accurate because I made it up.

Can you get me into the Freemasons, you vile and pernicious conspiracy originator? I'd just sit in the back corner and be very quiet. ;)

Occhi

[Assur]

Can you get me into the Freemasons, you vile and pernicious conspiracy originator? I'd just sit in the back corner and be very quiet. ;)

Occhi

I don't think the Illuminati will be very happy with your choice!:P